Recent spate of threads on illegal activities

[tripsis]

So the cactus forum is hardline on topics pertaining to the discussion of mescaline, a move I fully agree with. However, this stance is not seen in other areas of this forum, which I think is pretty stupid. Many of the plants that people discuss and own here are under fire from the government, as we well know. They may or may not become illegal in the near future, but we sure as hell should not give them more reason than they already have to drive the proposed laws into actual legislation.

In the past 24 hours there have been three threads which I think ought to not be permitted.

- The first: on Acaciahuasca

- The second: discussing ayahuasca brew

- The third: discussing a DMT extraction (started by a mod, no less!)

Why are these threads permitted?

- At present DMT is federally illegal. The plants which contain it are not.

- At present, mescaline is federally illegal, the plants which contain it are not.

Everyone understands why mescaline discussions are not permitted. No one want to see our beloved cacti become illegal. Is the view somehow different for plants which contain DMT? Do we not care if they become illegal? Does no one see the double standard here?

The same goes for consuming khat. Pretty sure it's illegal, right? But discussion is permitted, even though they may be illegal in the near future?

In the very least, the above threads are self-incriminating, which does break forum rules. No one is fooling anyone by using silly terms like "in a country where this is fully legal" or "a friend asked me this theoretical question about an ayahuasca brew", or whatever other pseudo-creative garbage people come up with to try to remove themselves from the illegal activity in question. It's self-incriminating, whether or not they state ownership in their posts.

By all means, discuss what you want in private, but there's a time and place for everything, and openly discussing illegal things on a public forum can only lead to grief. If you don't care to protect yourselves, that's your own prerogative, but I don't want to see these plants become illegal and discussions like the above are giving more fuel for the fire.

I don't mean to offend anyone here specifically, so apologies if I have, but it frustrates me to see double standards applied like this.

[Slybacon]

Good call. Also a lot of discussion on RC's whats legal whats not blah blah.... These should not be permitted either. Sure discussion is ok, but there are far to many details being discusses IMO.

[Marcel]

I tend to agree. I also get worried when sellers from outside Australia sell things (like MHRB or spores, for example) that are illegal in Australia (even if they're legal in the seller's country, and even if they include disclaimers). I just don't think forum outsiders (authorities or media) give a shit whether a particular item is illegal "there" but not "here", and sweep all these things in together as representative of Australian ethno concerns (it is an Australian-based forum, after all).

[nothinghead]

Agreed. Although discussion and knowledge-sharing is important, we should be thinking about how explicit our posts are and whether there are other channels to discuss legally-dubious topics (of course, illegal topic should be avoided completely). A compromise, but possibly a wise one. Would like to hear more opinions.

[Darklight]

Why are these threads permitted?

 

Because mods are all different, human and subject to the occasional error like everyone else

Back when I was one we relied heavily on self-censorship, because running around after each individual post takes forever- though it needed to be done occasionally

What goes past one mod might not make it past another. Enforcing uniform standards would be a personal imposition on a volunteer job. Non-uniformity happens everywhere, the workplace for starters. We try to avoid it but sometimes it slips past

If you gently point out each time you see an illegal post that is usually enough to discourage people from blatant incrimination long term. Exhausting isn't it? Then just refer the post to a mod

Illegal posts seem to come and go in waves, which troughs once everyone gets a grip on it for a while. It's like whack-a-mole after a few weeks once people get loose again

[Slybacon]

A private section of the board for long standing members may be appropriate.

[Kee]

You make a lot of good points, especially in regards to overseas sellers (Marcel). However discussion/preparations are not illegal? If people are selling these goods it may be breaking laws but my understanding is that discussions are fine in every sense other than the image it may be presenting to outsiders.

So yes, if you're worried about the image these discussions may be projecting to the wider community then yes - that is an issue. But the discussions themselves are not (unless they're imposed by Google Adsense which i'm aware has some conditions of the sort).

I can see where your frustrations are stemming from but honestly - what would you have this site be if we could not discuss ethnos? We could all sit around twirling our hair talking about my new spearmint plant and how well it's doing and what a nice addittion it's going to be to my punch on the weekend.

[obtuse]

I've also had concerns about this.

Having a disclaimer on a post does not necessarily mean that people in fact take any notice of it. And im sure that authorities who occassionally look at this site and AE, will be assuming as per 'swims', 'gnomes' etc that it is purely obfuscation and that activity is going on despite the disclaimer.

perhaps they care, perhaps they dont. but i certainly feel caution should be taken.

Cheers, Obtuse.

[tripsis]

That's all well and good Darklight, but one of those threads is by a mod! Surely he should know better? If there are not strict guidelines to be followed, then people will keep making errors. Perhaps each and every one of those threads were created by the OP thinking that they weren't breaking forum rules or self-incriminating themselves, as there are no strict guidelines in place as to what is and what isn't permitted.

Maybe the problem is more with me and less with the forum. My interest is in plants and fungi, not what those plants or fungi may or may not contain. Over time I've moved away from ethnos in the psychoactive context and towards ethnos in the food and medicine context. Ethnobotany is broader than plants being used as psychoactives, but a disproportionately large amount of interest is given over to plants as drugs. As my interests have changed, I guess I feel I don't want to be associated with a forum renowned for discussion of drugs.

I feel that all that regular threads on illegal activities serve to do is to attract unwanted attention to the forum as whole.

Kee, as I said, ethnobotany is broader than plants as drugs. Spearmint is as valid as an ethnobotanical plant as iboga is. We can still discuss growing them, discuss traditional use even, but preparations are illegal, so discussing preparations synonymous with discussing illegal activities.

[Darklight]

That's all well and good Darklight, but one of those threads is by a mod!

Good grief, give them a break! Everyone makes mistakes. Just point it out to them gently

[obtuse]

Maybe the problem is more with me and less with the forum. My interest is in plants and fungi, not what those plants or fungi may or may not contain. Over time I've moved away from ethnos in the psychoactive context and towards ethnos in the food and medicine context. Ethnobotany is broader than plants being used as psychoactives, but a disproportionately large amount of interest is given over to plants as drugs.

 

I likewise have the same sentiments Tripsis, and it makes me wonder too. I also feel there is a disproportionate representation of certain plants, but at the same time i wouldnt be involved in this community if it weren't for my interest in them. And discussion of them is perfectly valid, especially considering SAB seems to have always had a focus on shamanistic usage of plant and fungi.

My hope is that forums such as this do contribute to a more enlightened understanding of shamanistic plants, but to what degree does some activity harm that and instead cause damage tot he community?

Not sure.

Cheers, Obtuse.

[sapito]

Tripsis there are plenty of other forums about growing food and medicine. It would be lame if this one had to limit itself to that. Dont forget the name Shaman-Australis. While it need not be the only theme, people obviously come here to learn about psychoactive plants and the place is valued for that reason.

I think some threads could be a bit better written that are discussing preparations but some of the knowledge is quite interesting. Like PH's thread. The Acaciahuasca thread might show people they they dont need to cut down mass amounts of trees to get where they need to go. Its not all bad.

I know the use of 'gnome' or whatever term does not fool anyone but either does the concept of 1000's of people growing psychoactive plants for the sole purpose of observing them.

Like you I dont really know what the forum rule is on this with mixed messages being spread but I think you might be freaking out a bit too much.

[Bretloth]

I tried to point this out a while back, the hypocrisy is palpable, although I am for posting about whatever the fuck you want, freedom baby. But at the end of the day it's Torstens site and he can do whatever he likes.

[ballzac]

I agree with what people are saying in general, but I think there is a big difference between cacti and other plants in that regard. Cacti are very noticeable, and even though the specific species that are of most interest here will be difficult for the layman (authorities) to ID, it's still a red flag for them. Most other plant don't draw any attention. Granted, we don't want Acacias becoming illegal, but who is seriously going to notice, in this country, if you have a particular species of Acacia in your garden. I'm not saying people shouldn't tone it down a bit, just pointing out that there is a difference not captured by Tripsis' original comparison between DMT containing plants and Mescaline containing plants.

[Seldom]

would be good to get the opinion of Torsten on this, will be great to hear his talk at EGA on the legal dimension of ethno culture

i spose i do agree that prep info and acaciahuasca/changa/illegal whatever related posts at least shouldn't be any more extensive than it is at the moment. one thing i like about SAB is the emphasis on growing, and that it's not filled with rabid crazy eye drug fiends using plants exclusively as a means to an end. the proliferation of info via the web is a good thing, but there's something special about information that's restricted to those genuinely willing to experiment and search with perseverance. if the purpose of the corroboree is to provide a set of quick fix methods for getting a few fast food entheogenic experiences then i spose it's ok. i'd just say with Lazaris that the steps to getting there are the qualities of being there, imo knowledge about these things should be earned not browsed

Edited November 10, 2011 by bulls on parade

[Bretloth]

I aggree that we should not allow this site to become full of idiots looking for a high, it is about the plants which is why I'm here. I enjoy growing the plants, as having a relationship with the plant increases it's benefits for me. And it in itself is therapuetic. And this site has been invaluable for me in doing that. With that being said when I want to discuss using a plant, it is not as a drug, but as a medicine or sacrement. As long as we consider them drugs, so will the authorities. I think we need to change the language, shapeshift it to suit the true purposes of these plants. You may consider entheogens to be drugs, but every traditional culture considers them sacred medicines. Discussing the safe use of sacred medicine is far less likely to have the same connotations than discussing using drugs. Maybe it's just semantics, but so is law

[Foo]

I agree, this is not the place for alk cont and extraction tecks. There are PLENTY of other places out there for that.

I think the problem with the international trades is an increase in frequency, these posts normaly recieve few replys other then "please add a disclaimer" and are soon buried.

I cant see a problem with talking about plants containing illeagles, but talking about the chemicles themselves probs isnt the greatest.

[ballzac]

I think it also depends on context. Posting a drawing in the creativity forum and saying that it was inspired by DMT is very different to posting in the ethnobotany forum and discussing % content in a certain species.

[Foo]

I think it also depends on context. Posting a drawing in the creativity forum and saying that it was inspired by DMT is very different to posting in the ethnobotany forum and discussing % content in a certain species.

 

Agreed.

[Evil Genius]

Alright guys, will only write a short reply about that because im sure Torsten will write one later as soon as he finds the time. Torsten enforces the deletion of illegal topics and so do i and the other other mods. The mods report problematic topics within a few hours and thats why they are usually gone after short time. But the report function has the problem that the mods of the forum dont get a pm or email if someone else reports it. Only the Admin gets one. At least thats how it used to be and i think at the moment, there is no way to change it. So, as Torsten has good mods who take care of this, he doesnt need to stick around all the time. If he´s there, the threads are gone within an hour or so. But in this case, reports sometimes might not get to the place they need to be as he might have been out for a few days or so. So its best to send a pm directly to the MODERATOR OF THE FORUM in case of an illegal topic and they will delete or edit it asap. Thats the best way for now and im sure it will solve the problem. You know, though our mods are pretty much on top of things, we still are regular people with problems, lives and things that need to be taken care of so we appreciate all the help we get. So please dont hesitate to report a thread. You know, in the past years, i think i only got one or two pm´d reports in total. That makes the job a lot more difficult. bye Eg

edit: And yes, we definately know that its important not to lose sight of our ethnobotanical base and we will always hold on to that. However, this doesnt mean we condone or allow illegal actions or topics in any way. There´s more to ethnobotany than breaking the law. Its none of my business what people do or dont do. Just dont talk about everything you do if it can be problematic. I know its hard to live with nowadays plant laws but you need to understand that torsten runs a business and puts his ass on the line with this forum every single day. Thats why its important to keep all the posts legit.

Edited November 10, 2011 by Evil Genius

[Alice]

I don't think it's a bad thing that things are toned down. 99% of the dodgy questions can be answered with google in under 10 minutes without asking here.

And I don't for one second buy the whole "people only come here to learn how to get high, and we'd otherwise have nothing to talk about". That's bullshit. (Not refering to any one in particular, it just comes up from time to time.)

We could all sit around twirling our hair talking about my new spearmint plant and how well it's doing and what a nice addittion it's going to be to my punch on the weekend.

 

Will there be alcohol in that punch? Can I see some ID please?

[tripsis]

Good grief, give them a break! Everyone makes mistakes. Just point it out to them gently

Fair point. I guess I'm just tired of seeing repeated posts about illegal activities. If there were clear, concise guidelines about what is and isn't acceptable, perhaps we would see less.

edit: And yes, we definately know that its important not to lose sight of our ethnobotanical base and we will always hold on to that. However, this doesnt mean we condone or allow illegal actions or topics in any way. There´s more to ethnobotany than breaking the law. Its none of my business what people do or dont do. Just dont talk about everything you do if it can be problematic.

This exactly sums up my opinion on it.

Tripsis there are plenty of other forums about growing food and medicine. It would be lame if this one had to limit itself to that. Dont forget the name Shaman-Australis. While it need not be the only theme, people obviously come here to learn about psychoactive plants and the place is valued for that reason.

By no means am I suggesting we eradicate discussion of psychoactive plants here, but there's more to discussion on that topic than ingesting them. Take a look at the cactus forum. No discussion of mescaline there, nor of eating them, yet it's one of the most popular sub-forums here. That's because people genuinely enjoy growing them for the sake of growing them. At least, I know I do. The Corroboree is not going to suffer if people are not discussing illegal activities.

[Kee]

Well played, I'll concede you have made a good point. For what it's worth I don't exactly like being associated with a drug-themed forum at all, I occasionally log in at work and would hate to think it come back to haunt me for anything more than wasting time browsing forums. I guess I was just pointing out there's no need to be the Fun Police. (I get enough of that in reality as it is!)

Upvote for eatfoo's comment

Edited November 10, 2011 by Kee

[Foo]

I also think that we arent lacking a clear set of guidelines, maybe a lack of enforcement. (just to be clear i am in no way critical of the moderating team)

Ok, i should have done this some time ago as it would have saved many a deleted posts or threads and me sending polite PMs. It isnt hard really, the basic rule that flows throughout the WHOLE forum DONT INCRIMINATE YOURSELF OR OTHERS, pretty easy to follow and self explanatory. There is however a lil extra that was added to the cactus forum a few years ago and has been in a pinned thread called "Important legal info ; PLEASE READ". It seems most ppl forgo reading this lil tidbit of important information or if they have read it in the past seem to forget it quiet easily so i will put it here and pin it so it is a lil easier for people to find and hopefully people will read it and hold fast to the content! In light of recent legal propasals we should all be well aware of, i think it is time everyone took these rules seriously please, its a very easy to follow and there are NO exceptions!

Thank you

PD.

 

I can't stress this enough! With the closure of the synthetikal forums and the persecution (and possible prosecution) of it's members I would like to remind everyone that we are in a country that does not give a legal guarantee of free speech and that postings about illegal processes can be used to shut this place down or to arrest people.

And no gnome is going to help you here either. if you can't phrase it legally then don't post it!

I expect the mod to be more ruthless in this forum than in the other SAB forums simply because this chem forum will stick out like dogs balls.

I prefer if the mod errs on the side of caution in this case, so don't be surprised if a thread gets locked or even deleted.

For the most part I expect the topics here to be DIRECTLY RELATED TO ETHNOBOTANY. Discussions on making synthetic drugs will be deleted without notice. This includes speed, MDMA, etc. There are other places for that.

 

Hi Everyone,

Evil Genius and I moderate the chill forum, currently the report feature does not report to the forum moderators but to the admin.

Posting Rules

1) Do not incriminate yourself or others.

 

Quotes from 3 different pinned threads. (ive culled some stuff from the quotes for easyer reading)

also, the (official) forum rules

I think the single statement Do not incriminate yourself or others Covers 99% of our bases. ie Talking about increasing the alk cont of your cacti is self incriminating. Or pretty much anything to do with aya

Edited November 10, 2011 by eatfoo

[sapito]

I wonder what will happen if those proposed plant laws come in? Wouldnt that make most things discussed on here illegal?