was i fired fairly?

[bogfrog]

i just got fired from my new job at a cafe because i gave my boyfriend a free coffee.

i also payed for that coffee when my boss asked me about it.. and i still got fired!

i dont know anything about employment law but it really just didnt seem fair to me, the boss told me i was a theif and if i did it once i would do it again.

i'm not too concerned though, if he was enough of an asshole to fire me over $4.50 then he was probably shit to work for anyway.

[Foo]

I think he legaly can fire you for that, wether thats fair or not is a diferent story.

Best of luck job hunting

[bogfrog]

true, cheers for that

[Distracted]

Yup he can fire you, technically because he caught you and you admitted you did it he can get you charged with theft too.

You can't just give away a company's products for free, they're not yours to give away.

[ballzac]

i just got fired from my new job at a cafe because i gave my boyfriend a free coffee.

i also payed for that coffee when my boss asked me about it.. and i still got fired!

i dont know anything about employment law but it really just didnt seem fair to me, the boss told me i was a theif and if i did it once i would do it again.

i'm not too concerned though, if he was enough of an asshole to fire me over $4.50 then he was probably shit to work for anyway.

 

Legally, there is a trial period. I believe this was brought in by the Howard government. This means that they do not even have to have a reason to get rid of you. I went for a job where they advertised full time and part time positions. I applied for it, and in the interview they said they only wanted part time employees. I told them I needed full time work. They thought about it and then said I had the job. So, I quit the job that I had, only to find that at this new job they were only offering me the ocassional shift, like three 4 hour shifts a week or something. I called the union and asked what I could do, and they said there was nothing I could do because of the laws that, at that time, were new. In other words, they could basically fire me for no reason because it was in the trial period (3 months I think), so giving me a few shifts a week was a step up from their actual legal obligations. Of course I didn't stick around, but I was left jobless until I found a new job, which is pretty fucked because I started off with a secure full time job and ended up on welfare getting treated like shit by employees of the same government that caused the problem in the first place. So legally, because you were new, you were fired 'fairly'. Of course, ethically, this was not fair. Assuming that you thought it was okay to give your boyfriend a coffee (which doesn't cost them much mind you) then you should have simply been told what the rules were. Everywhere I've worked it's been okay to eat/drink stuff and to share with friends within reason, so I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that you can do that (though it would be polite to ask). If you worked there for 3 months then they need to give you warnings before they fire you for something trivial, but if it was less than this probationary period then you don't have a case.

[ballzac]

The laws appear to have changed again

An employee employed in a small business (up to 15 total employee head count) is

prevented from making an unfair dismissal claim in their first 12

months of service. However, after 12 months of service, the

termination of an employee must comply with the Dismissal

Code in order to avoid an unfair dismissal claim.

 

For businesses with more than 15 employees, Fair Work Australia

determines a dismissal as being unfair where there is no valid

reason for the dismissal, the employee is not given notice of

proposed dismissal and opportunity to respond, the employee has

been in service for more than 6 months or the performance or

actions of the employee warrants the dismissal.

 

reference

So basically, if you've been working there for less than six months (12 if it's a small business) there's nothing you can do regardless of their reason for giving you the sack.

[Sheather]

i just got fired from my new job at a cafe because i gave my boyfriend a free coffee.

i also payed for that coffee when my boss asked me about it.. and i still got fired!

Did you pay for the coffee only when confronted by your boss, or pay for it immediately? It isn't a fair firing if you bought the coffee yourself and gifted it to your boyfriend though. Even if you didn't pay immediately, so long as the register is balanced by the end of the day, or whenever the time is that boss checks the balances and counts his cash I don't think you committed a crime, or even an offense to be fired over.

Does the boss just not like you?

@Ballzac - This girl's in NZ remember, the Howard Government didn't have much sway there...

[ballzac]

Ah, didn't notice that. Check your local laws then.

[Teotzlcoatl]

was i fired fairly?

What you need to realize is that they can fire you for whatever they want cause they are the boss and they don't give a fuck about you.

I was a lifeguard and skipped my best friends funeral because I thought it was "the right thing to do" because I couldn't get anybody to cover my shift. I got fired a week later.

Welcome to world of business, the only way to escape it is get off the grid and provide for yourself or open your own business and be your own boss.

[solomon]

Ah, didn't notice that. Check your local laws then.

 

It's similar here, you can get fired within the first 90 days without any reason.

Sorry to hear that bogfrog, hope you find somewhere better to work dude

[tripsis]

Your boss sounds like a prick bogfrog. Legally he was able to fire you, but ethically what he did was an abuse of power.

An employee employed in a small business (up to 15 total employee head count) is

prevented from making an unfair dismissal claim in their first 12

months of service. However, after 12 months of service, the

termination of an employee must comply with the Dismissal

Code in order to avoid an unfair dismissal claim.

This country is so utterly fucked. You could be completely screwed over and not have a leg to stand on thanks so our shit government. Make the rich richer and the poor poorer.

[FancyPants]

Just to offer another perspective, perhaps this business owner had been burned by employee theft before? My parents own and run a small business and even their most trusted workers were giving away products to family and friends on the sly; there was a definite combination of "what's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine", and "they own a small business ergo they must be rich (utter BS!)" mentalities. Maybe the owner wanted to let the worker go before it got out of hand?

Also wondering if you (BogFrog) had already paid for the coffee, and not just when caught out. If you'd already paid for it, then it sounds pretty harsh to fire you for that!

[chnt]

sounds like a fucking joke, good luck in the future.

[incognito]

pretty harsh. i wouldve given u the 'if u do it again ur out of here.' everyone deserves a chance i reckon.even three if not to full on a mistake.

dont sweat it, u will find another job, learn from it.

was same in nightclub game, if u gave away free drinks and where caught, u where out the door. everyone did it, but then some where caught and it was there bad. really this should have been pointed out at your induction, if there was one. but realisticaly, its a no-brainer. sorry mate it sounds harsh but its true. ive been sacked from more jobs than i care to think off.

[Zen Peddler]

The boss sounds like a tight-arse, liberal-voting, chamber-of-commerce-loving, business-council-of-Australian-fawning, terd of humanity in my eyes. Im sure the cafe pumps out fucking coffees all day every day and the total cost of the one that you made for your boyfriend would have been 20 cents or less.

I cant stand these types of individuals - treating their staff like they are arseholes and using their little bit of power in life to try and make others feel as shitty about their lives as they secretly do about theirs own.

I bet its one of those cafes where people come in all day long and he usually treats most of them like shit, yet they keep coming back.

And I can tell you the price of that coffee is fucking thievery if ever ive heard it...

No doubt you were casual anyway so you havent got a leg to stand on really unless you can claim bullying or harassment which might be fun because the guy sounds like a total fuck arse to be frank...

I just realised your in NZ. You guys have pretty fucked up IR laws from memory...

But its a shitty job, wo shy do managers always have to make it shittier. Your employees will behave trustworthly if you treat them with respect and relax a bit.

[ballzac]

Scope of legislation

All employees, regardless of their category or sphere of work, are entitled to challenge a dismissal as unjustifiable using the procedures in Part 9 of the ERA (sec 102 ERA). There is no qualifying period of employment that must be served before a dismissal may be challenged so that both part-time and casual employees are entitled to challenge a dismissal.

source

I have no idea what ERA is, or if I interpret this correctly, but it might be worth checking out.

[Distracted]

I don't understand how it could be classed as unfair dismissal? She stole a product. The Cost of goods for a cup of coffee is small but it doesn't take into account repair and maintainence of the machine, staff costs and administration costs.

Now I hate ownership but at least I understand it. What's so hard to understand about taking something that's not yours? She were employed to do certain jobs, at no point was the business hers or any of the products hers.

From what I can tell from the first post she admitted that she took an item from the store and had no intention of paying for the item until the manager caught her.

no intention of payment(that's an important term to remember when it comes to theft)

I'm not talking about his personality or if I think what he did was ethically correct, i'm simply discussing his rights as an employer.

[ballzac]

As I said before, everywhere I have ever worked it has been okay to take stuff. This includes soft drinks, pies and sausage rolls, pizza rolls. At the end of the day take a loaf of bread or two home. Pizza places generally let you make up your own pizza to take home for dinner. I've worked in nice cake shops and often grabbed small cakes, tarts or flans to have with my lunch and never been queried about it. All this stuff, with the possible exception of a loaf of bread, costs a lot more than a cup of coffee. It's probably the only perk of working in the food industry. You get paid $10-$15 an hour, the least they can do is let you take something to eat or drink every now and then.

I guess the question is: Did you know you weren't allowed to give away a coffee and you tried to get away with it? Or did you think you were allowed? If you knew you weren't allowed, then it was pretty dumb to do it when you were new, but it's probably not that great working for someone who won't let you have a cup of coffee anyway.

More importantly, was it a milk based drink? I mean a cappuccino or a latte costs a lot more than a macchiato or a long black. Did you add sugar? Those little sachets are expensive. Or maybe this is all just trivial. Coffee costs peanuts to make, however you look at it.

[occidentalis]

It's not unfair - technically it was theft. And even if it was fair, you don't have a leg to stand on as others have said thanks to IR laws.

The real issue is that your boss was an asshole and it sounds like a shit place to work. Get another job somewhere cool.

[bogfrog]

yes, fundamentally i was i the wrong for giving away something that was not mine, but the only reason i had considered that to be okay was at my previous job it had been perfectly acceptable for us to make a coffee for yourself and one other. same goes for my partners work.

i had never been told that i was not allowed to give away a coffee and honestly believed it would not have been an issue, as we were a new cafe, which had been giving away a lot of free coffees to neighboring businesses to encourage them to come back.

yes it was a milk based drink, but i would expect the same result if i had given him a long black. the cafe was a side business of successful bakery, and i had already been given food to take home after each shift. that's not saying i took it without asking, i was offered food and told to take whatever i want home.

i looked at it from the perspective that a coffee is a very inexpensive product and had not even considered that there would be any problem with this in the bosses eyes. i am not arguing that he was not justified to fire me, as we have a 90 day trail period in new zealand, but personally i believe it was not the issue of the coffee but some underlying reason that he did not mention.

i think it all came down to the fact that my boyfriend has dreadlocks, and therefore by association he saw me as a stoner.

if anything this has taught me a valuable lesson, dont give away that which is not yours, which i will definately not be repeating.

it has also made me alot less motivated to find another full time job though, as this was my first 35 hour pw position, i had only worked part time before this. although, i dont believe its entirely a bad thing, i had always felt like i was not contributing enough to society by never having worked full time, now i believe that society can wait until i have something i truly care about enough that i wish to donate so much of my time.

thank you every one for your comments, it has helped me to feel alot better about the situation.

cheers, kea

[ballzac]

Based on what you've just said, I don't think it's stealing at all. It's a misunderstanding at worst, and I would agree that it must have just been an excuse and the motive for firing you was not the coffee at all.

[FancyPants]

I hope you find a more suitable job for yourself next time I wish I could find something I want to do

Edit: While I agree that there's definitely people out there so narrow-minded to fire you on such ridiculous basis as judging you from you or your boyfriend's looks, I still think there's the very real possibility that the owner may have been taken for a ride previously. Small businesses generally have notoriously low profit margins; particularly around these times. I guess you could ask him? You have nothing to lose anymore, and the answer might give you better understanding

[Torsten]

if my staff ask me for stuff they usually get it for free. If they take anything without asking [no matter how small] they are out the door - no second chances. As mentioned before, it's the principle that matters. Someone who takes liberties like that is likely to take such liberties at other times and in different circumstances. The fact this was even posted as a question indicates that the OP doesn't understand that this was pure and simply theft and hence is unlikely to understand the issue in a different but similar situation.

When I worked in clubs I'd also give away free drinks, but I knew I was stealing from my tightarse bastard boss who ripped me off on my wages and so wouldn't have whinged if I got the sack. I'd never do that in a job I really want to keep.

And paying for your stolen goods after getting caught is not a favour, but your obligation. if you get busted stealing anything else in a shop you will also be forced to pay AND get prosecuted. If you work in a cafe then coffee is the merchandise - regardless of the actual cost to your employer.

[Quill]

That sucks boggy. i work in a cafe and I give away drinks all day. My bosses are usually pretty cool about, they realise that the reward far outweighs the cost of the free coffee. I usually give freeies to people I know or people that.., get this, treat me like a person, instead of a coffee dispensing machine. i love giving people free coffees or teas, makes me feel happy to give something that to me has negligible value but judging by the beaming faces of the recipients have great value to them. anybody that I know or just recognise gets a free cup of tea.

But as for your question, unfortunately yeah, you were fired fairly. What Distracted said is so.

That said, what Zenpeddler sums up your boss. (what a cunt) I bet he saw your bf and thought "druggie hippie scumn."

Best of luck gettin a new job boggy

[ballzac]

if my staff ask me for stuff they usually get it for free. If they take anything without asking [no matter how small] they are out the door - no second chances. As mentioned before, it's the principle that matters. Someone who takes liberties like that is likely to take such liberties at other times and in different circumstances. The fact this was even posted as a question indicates that the OP doesn't understand that this was pure and simply theft and hence is unlikely to understand the issue in a different but similar situation.

When I worked in clubs I'd also give away free drinks, but I knew I was stealing from my tightarse bastard boss who ripped me off on my wages and so wouldn't have whinged if I got the sack. I'd never do that in a job I really want to keep.

And paying for your stolen goods after getting caught is not a favour, but your obligation. if you get busted stealing anything else in a shop you will also be forced to pay AND get prosecuted. If you work in a cafe then coffee is the merchandise - regardless of the actual cost to your employer.

 

There must be a limit though? I mean, if someone poured themselves a glass of water from the tap without asking would you consider it stealing? I doubt it. But why? I would say that the combination of the low cost of water and the fact that it is 'reasonable' to assume that it's okay to take water without asking means that it is not stealing. So some of us clearly have different ideas at what level it becomes stealing. Although I would personally ask if I could have coffee without paying for it, I don't think it's unreasonable to think this is okay based on my experience in the food industry.