Coleus blumei

[mutant]

You must be missing something Archaea.

Coleus has been dismissed by most psychonauts for long time now.

Have some free seed and/or stop repeating yourself.

Edited September 6, 2011 by mutant

[Zen Peddler]

Coleus sp - contains forskolin (activator of adenylcyclase) - treatment of heart failure, glaucoma, bronchial asthma, hypertension. Vasodilator and mild sedative. (WInk, BEVW and M)

[Gunter]

that makes a probable candidate for the reported activity of the genus,

[Teotzlcoatl]

Prove Coleus is active and I'll send you a plant and some $$$, this is an open challenge to all!

[Gunter]

Prove Coleus is active and I'll send you a plant and some $$$, this is an open challenge to all!

 

Active in what sense?

What constitutes proof?

A double blind study with placebo?

[mutant]

this what googling "coleus forskohlii pubmed" gives

only that a proper coleus forskolii is supposed to be a green leafed species

hey teotz have some free seed

[lofty86]

From wiki

"Adenylate cyclase (EC 4.6.1.1, also known as adenylyl cyclase, adenyl cyclase or AC) is part of the G protein signalling cascade, which transmits chemical signals from outside the cell across the membrane to the inside of the cell (cytoplasm).

The outside signal binds to a receptor, which transmits a signal to the G protein, which transmits a signal to adenylate cyclase, which transmits a signal by converting adenosine triphosphate to cyclic adenosine monophosphate (cAMP). cAMP is known as a second messenger.[1]"

also

"Adenylate cyclase is dually regulated by G proteins (Gs stimulating activity and Gi inhibiting it), and by forskolin, as well as other class-specific substrates:

Isoforms I, III and VIII are also stimulated by Ca2+/calmodulin.

Isoforms V and VI are inhibited by Ca2+ in a calmodulin-independent manner.

Isoforms II, IV and IX are stimulated by beta gamma subunits of the G protein.

Isoforms I, V and VI are most clearly inhibited by Gi, while other isoforms show less dual regulation by the inhibitory G protein.

Soluble AC (sAC) is not a transmembrane form and is not regulated by G proteins or forskolin, instead acts as a bicarbonate/pH sensor.

In neurons, calcium-sensitive adenylate cyclases are located next to calcium ion channels for faster reaction to Ca2+ influx; they are suspected of playing an important role in learning processes. This is supported by the fact that adenylate cyclases are coincidence detectors, meaning that they are activated only by several different signals occurring together. In peripheral cells and tissues adenylate cyclases appear to form molecular complexes with specific receptors and other signaling proteins in an isoform-specific manner."

so like it has been explained to you befor teotz coleus is active (in the sense a nootropic is active). I beleive the rumor of coleus being a replacement for salvia came from the fact it shares some non active alkaloids with salvia divinorium. coleus does not show any kappa opoid activity but thats not to say the plant has no psychotropic merit.

do you seriously beleive the medical profession, the indians, and the south east asian countries that have been using these species medicinally for god knows how long know less about this plant than you do?

[Teotzlcoatl]

If you say it's active Archaea, then that is enough proof for me.

It need to be something more than just a "mild" whatever, I want REAL psychoactive effects, whatever they may be.

[Gunter]

I beleive the rumor of coleus being a replacement for salvia came from the fact it shares some non active alkaloids with salvia divinorium.

As mentioned previously the rumors of it being used like Salvia all come from Wasson, who said that some indians told him it was used this way, and that others told him it was not, he never confirmed it and basically said he did not know, this was well before the discovery of Salvinorins.

do you seriously beleive the medical profession, the indians, and the south east asian countries that have been using these species medicinally for god knows how long know less about this plant than you do?

Well, what medical professionals?

What Indians, can you give me more of a reference than that?

there has not been a single report of any rituals involving coleus, nor has anyone reported a shaman who says they use it like salvia, there is basically no person that can be credited with Salvia like use or even credited with the claim that it is employed in such a way.

As for South East Asian countries, which ones say what again?

there are two main reports of activity for this species, the first is from people who smoke it and they report that it is a mild sedative.

the second type of report for this plant is at Erowid, but I saw a presentation by someone from Erowid who claimed that their reports are selected in a very peculiar way and that they publish a very small minority of the reports they get, basically Erowid reports are an incredibly poor representation of activity for any plant or chemical and are cherry picked, so to speak, to represent what Erowid thinks is best, for lack of a better word Erowid trip reports are statistically bullshit and not as useful as they may seem to be, but then maybe that can be said for Erowid in general, given that it contains very little original data and it presents a lot of misconceptions in its vaults.

I believe that given the testimony Coleus is active in a sense, but not like Salvia and there is zero documented evidence that it is used or ever has been used by Mexican indians in the manner that Salvia is. The people who have explored the region and met the shamans and done a lot of work on this since Wasson have not in any cases observed or confirmed Coleus being used, despite the fact that they obtained a lot of data and specimens of Salvia d. and closely related species.

So what does a person with access to various research publications and the world wide web know about something in comparison to third world countries? Well didn't you just post this:

"Adenylate cyclase (EC 4.6.1.1, also known as adenylyl cyclase, adenyl cyclase or AC) is part of the G protein signalling cascade, which transmits chemical signals from outside the cell across the membrane to the inside of the cell (cytoplasm).

Your evidence alone shows that you likely know more about this plant than people did in the past, you are drawing from data that could not have even been produced 20 years ago, so the idea that somebody knows more because their culture used it or because they went to medical school is untenable. I've taken a lot of medical and pre-medical classes in a college setting and the medical community is vastly over rated regarding what it knows, go ask a random doctor about Coleus and see how familiar they are with the pharmacology it has, you will learn that a 15 year old internet nerd knows way more about stuff like this than they do. If you want to know how to check a prostate for swelling, ask a doctor, if you want to know about the pharmacology of psychoactives ask an internet nerd.

[Teotzlcoatl]

Thank you Archaea, I totally agree.

[mutant]

Well Teotz, you owe Archaea some plant and dollars then...

For what it's worth, Coleus activity is neither salvida divinorum - like nor sedative. It's rather stimulant and psychedelic-like, but like mentioned, it's mild or hard to make an impression by itself.

One needs to chew [quid?] 120-140 medium to big leaves to replicate the most impressive reports of the past that want it to be active in a way like psylocybin, only milder and lasting less. And you need to pick an erect variety like the one I am offering... not the smallish creeper ones...

And no I am not doing this, I am probably too old for this shit...

Archaea:

As mentioned previously the rumors of it being used like Salvia all come from Wasson, who said that some indians told him it was used this way, and that others told him it was not, he never confirmed it and basically said he did not know, this was well before the discovery of Salvinorins.

this [wasson] was in 1962. if what you're saying is the whole truth, then why is it replicated in the updated version of plants of the gods [with the recent data that diterpenoid substances have been found in Coleus sp] and also in encyclopedia of psychoactive plants?

for traditional medicinal uses, look the Coleus blumei chapter in the latter book, that if I remember right you don't appreciate much ....

[Gunter]

Christian Rätsch is the source of the bad info in both of those books.

He is notorious for publishing second hand information as fact.

Read the original Wasson papers, he never once says that it was used like salvia, just that he got conflicting information about it.

There are zero first or even second hand accounts of it being used like Salvia.

[ubza_1234]

i dont supose anyone has tried something silly like smoking/consuming a good amount of seeds???

[mutant]

a yeah I remembered these are bad books

what about the medicinal uses? he made them up too?

well what are your citations?

correction: C.forskolli has not green leaves, they're black.

C.pumilis also looks a lot like blumei

[lofty86]

archea it was teotz i belive mentioned reference to the mazetec using coleus thats were i got that from, and well the medical profession uses forskolin to treat alzheimer's. and well I assumed its used in south east asian countries medicinally as I know it is at least used to cook with in penang.

check the threads I am one of the many members here who has actually tested coleus and reported psychoactivity (on numerous occasions) I was simply getting tired of teotz nazi mentality on assuming coleus is inactive because it does not compare to blasting your brain with disasociatives.

[Teotzlcoatl]

Show me where I mention that please.

[mutant]

lofty, it seems we are not good enough to report such a thing. Nor Hoffman, Wasson, Schultes, Raetsch and Ott.

I guess we have all been tricked... or making things up

anyways

ACTIVE COLEUS SEED GIVEAWAY . PM ME

Edited September 9, 2011 by mutant

[Gunter]

lofty, it seems we are not good enough to report such a thing. Nor Hoffman, Wasson, Schultes, Raetsch and Ott.

I guess we have all been tricked...

 

neither Schultes nor Hoffman ever claimed that coleus was entheogenic.

neither did Raetsch, nor Ott, nor did Wasson.

Read the citations, it all goes to the 1962 paper by Wasson, who never said it was entheogenic, only that he received conflicting information about it.

Plants of the gods was mostly ghostwritten by Raetsch, including early editions lacking his name.

Not one of those men ever stated that Coleus was entheogenic and used by natives as a replacement for Salvia.

They all refer to Wassons paper.

You can read that here:

http://www.sagewisdom.org/wasson1.html

You mention Ott, well here is a paper from him on the subject, note that he claims there is no evidence to suggest that Coleus is psychoactive.

http://www.sagewisdom.org/ott2.html

So where is the first hand evidence where anyone saw or participated in a ceremony where coleus was employed by mazatecs?

Where is a single publication that claims it is entheogenic that does not cite the Wasson paper where he never makes such a claim?

Where is a blind study where people compare it to placebo?

Don Alejandro as you may know is a mazatec shaman that uses Salvia and other entheogens, he has stated that Coleus is not used and that it was only grown as an ornamental.

please feel free to provide the name of a mazatec shaman who uses coleus.

[Gunter]

archea it was teotz i belive mentioned reference to the mazetec using coleus thats were i got that from, and well the medical profession uses forskolin to treat alzheimer's. and well I assumed its used in south east asian countries medicinally as I know it is at least used to cook with in penang.

check the threads I am one of the many members here who has actually tested coleus and reported psychoactivity (on numerous occasions) I was simply getting tired of teotz nazi mentality on assuming coleus is inactive because it does not compare to blasting your brain with disasociatives.

 

Sorry, I tried to plus your post and accidentally hit neg.

I have no issue with things being clear, but the idea that Teotz is a nazi for wanting to dispel the coleus myth, namely that it is a replacement for salvia and is another entheogen, seems kind of ludicrous. I wish more people had the enthusiasm and drive to explore and research that Teotz has. If wanting to clarify the coleus issue is tantamount to being a nazi, then I am a nazi too. The first thing on the nazi agenda is apparently to stop people from passing along information that is not true, not that coleus lacks vague activity, but that it was ever used by shamans in Mexico, or that anyone ever really claimed that.

[mutant]

I corrected the neg

man [archaea]

it was used by healers as medicinal herb where it came from

not in south america

ott admits coleus species are in the same divine family of introduced plants of some importance to them.

nobody here claims coleus use was traditional. Ott in his paper says that neither was salvia divinorum use.

stop obsessing over shamans dudes. we were raised in the cities, not jungle. they have a lot to teach to us. but I am not worshipping them, sorry

[Teotzlcoatl]

At first I thought Coleus was active (I thought everything was active in my younger days) but after much reading and research I've come to believe that it is not used entheogenically or shamanically, perhaps medicinally, but I don't think it's overtly psychoactive.

it was used by healers as medicinal herb where it came from

Then why does everyone talk about the Shamans in Mexico using it? Shit I was the one who brought up the fact that is was from Asia... ya probably would have kept propagating the idea that it was native to Mexico had I not come along and said something!

stop obsessing over shamans dudes. we were raised in the cities, not jungle. they have a lot to teach to us. but I am not worshipping them, sorry

Wha... huh? Your way off.

Edited September 9, 2011 by Teotzlcoatl

[mutant]

yeah yeah

[mutant]

double post

must be that coleus pinch i threw in this joint!

Edited September 9, 2011 by mutant

[Teotzlcoatl]

... or MAYBE it was the joint?!

[Gunter]

The WWW contains a lot of bad info about this plant, several websites and questionable trip reports exist that claim the plant is entheogenic.

I believe that this should be well understood, for example you mentioned Schultes, Hoffman, Wasson etc, what people tend to claim is that one of these men claimed the plant was used by mazatc shamans. When they define coleus as active it is typically as an entheogen, something that it does not appear to be.

As for smoking it to demonstrate that it is active, I do not believe this counts as proof per say. What is the active ingredient? How can it be identified and extracted to demonstrate that the activity is coming from it and not some other factor, such as the inhalation of burning material?

Have you ever produced an active extract or do you have any chemical data that indicates what exactly is the active ingredient?

I knew this guy who would smoke hair and he swore it got him high.

I knew kids that put toothpaste on cigarettes and smoked those, they said it got them high.

I'd like to think that if Coleus is active that it is active in a way that isn't comparable to toothpaste and hair, which i bet synergize really well with weed.

Edited September 9, 2011 by Archaea