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trucha

Lophophora williamsii field study -- results for March 2011

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http://www.cactusconservation.org/CCI/ch/hogs.html

was giving me trouble...

was from a link on this page:

http://www.cactusconservation.org/CCI/ch/challenges.html

http://www.cactusconservation.org/CCI/ch/Hogs.html was working

interesting that snails and rodents eat them... but signs of insect damage seem to be absent...?

loss of habitat being the largest threat also is formidable, it seems to be the most difficult threat to combat

what measures can be implemented to prevent it?

i see conservation efforts through propagation and introduction to ideal habitats as a potential solution, what capacity if any does lophophora have to become invasive? what environments on the planet can sustain populations of them?

preventing habitat loss seems nearly impossible, as does preventing NAC harvesting that does not involve propagation.

Edited by Archaea

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thanks for posting Trucha. and say thanks to Terry and his helpers as well!

Archaea, i have done the math on how to cultivate enough peyote for domestic demand (using Martins figure of 200,000 buttons in texas) andd it is not only feasible, but logical, to switch to cultivation of peyote for NAC use. from a numbers and respect for wild environments things standpoint anyway.

land loss is a harsh one, and the way I see is if there is water around and the ground is anything but cliff or solid rock, its going to be used up by people eventually. so plants, not just lophs, growing on cliff faces are probably the safest of all, at least from human hands.

maybe those guys think differently, but i dont feel lophophora as invasive at all...even if they could possibly spread so much they just dont inhibit other plants growing. not from light, water, exuding chems to limit other plants germinating etc. its *never* impossible, but it is about the least likely genus of plants to become invasive as far as i can see.

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Peyote is not invasive despite being tenacious. It would be interesting to see anyone manage to defend it as invasive - especially as its known natural ranges are all shrinking and it's known distribution only seems to be expanding in horticulture.

The numbers for NAC production estimates are too low.

Its closer to 2 million crowns a year that are harvested legally and reported to the Texas DPS by the peyoteros (1.5-2 million has been the range for some time).

Stop though and think about the NAC membership being somewhere around 400,000 members (which is the number they are now using), some chapters meeting every month (sometimes more often), some larger ceremonies have been reported to go through 1500 buttons in a meeting and its clear a lot of material must be coming into the USA from someplace other than Texas (which can only be Mexico).

If not then those members would on average have access to only 5 buttons per person per year.

A large centralized production facility would almost certainly be plagued by corruption and problems unless some creatures other than humans operate it.

Peyote surely must be the single most commonly stolen cactus species that exists.

I'd like to see all NAC groups that are able to produce their own medicine on a local basis. That would put the energy and motivation in the right places.

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woops, ya i meant 2 million as stated in the tale of 2 cacti paper. I was wondering about that as well when i read it that 2 mill must be a low number compared to the number of users in the NAC (and never mind the non NAC use).

I dont think one centralized location would work either, like you say. I forget the exact figure but i did an estimate of about 180-185 greenhouses (standard 20x50 size) to produce the 2 million crowns annually. be a lot ion one spot, but i also figured the cost per person and if a group of people got together and had a couple greenhouses per county that has a bunch of members, or non members, then it could really work.

as far as cultivation goes, there is no reason not to and no reason it cant work. but im not sure the legal hurdles involved there and there is always the "human factor" which like you mention basically fucks things up beyond logical order.

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I couldn't imagine a species as slow as any of the Lophophora species as being invasive. It would take along time for them to invade an area!

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i wish they were an invasive thriving weed ;)

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so basically there is no reason that finding new habitats across the world is a bad idea...?

Africa, Oz, some parts of Asia and the American Southwest all seem ideal.

I wonder if people are willing to go and put specimens out in ideal habitats?

I am sure that for the purpose of NAC cultivation tissue culture would be a viable and cost effective means to exponentially propagate the plant to the order of tens of millions of specimens annually.

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I inherently react badly to the idea of purposely going out and planting exotic species in a habitat they don't belong, but thinking about it logically, I can't really see a problem when talking about species that have no or extremely little potential to become invasive. If a plant or animal was poisonous, then perhaps irrespective of whether it's likely to become invasive or not, it might be better not to (e.g. Bufo marinus, the cane toad, has been shown to kill predators through poisoning here, so even if it wasn't invasive, it still affects ecosystems negatively).

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not a bad point, and yet nature itself works with invasive species and ecological upsets punctuating equilibrium

many species we consider native to different parts of the world are themselves descendants of introduced species that were invasive in their own time

i am not arguing in favor of introductions of species, however the cultivation of any non-native plant in a yard, landscape or garden constitutes an introduction, which has the capacity to affect the environs involved and thus any argument against the introduction of a species into a new environment is potentially an argument against cultivation itself in regards to any form of life, including our own kind.

I have no problem suggesting that conservation efforts involve the introduction of species into environments that they ultimately don't belong in, like White people in the USA and Oz.

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the cultivation of any non-native plant in a yard, landscape or garden constitutes an introduction, which has the capacity to affect the environs involved and thus any argument against the introduction of a species into a new environment is potentially an argument against cultivation itself in regards to any form of life, including our own kind.

That, IMO, is the reason why so many different states & countries have strict restrictions and limitations. on what plants and seeds can be imported.

I think its a stretch of the imagination however to equate restrictions on plant species to those of human species.

I have no problem suggesting that conservation efforts involve the introduction of species into environments that they ultimately don't belong in, like White people in the USA and Oz.

So what does the conservation of lophophora williamsii have to do with White people in the USA and or Oz???

I f you have no problems with introducing non native species into an environment, I suggest you introduce Cirsium arvense to your yard & garden for cultivation. :wink:

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white folk invasions are just an example of invasive species where they don't belong, and in consideration of the conservation of lophophora invasive species are something to ponder if one feels that conservation can be done by introducing lophophora into new habitats, something i think is a viable way to deal with habitat loss

as for Cirsium arvense, if it requires conservation, like i said, then sure, i would. do you feel it requires conservation? I don't

don't imagine i said that i had no problem putting just any species in any place, conservation is key and one need not conserve what is not under threat

I think people should be willing to create feral populations of lophophora across the planet, where it is both possible and where plants are unlikely to be bothered with or encroached upon

Edited by Archaea

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i think invasiveness is probably not the biggest concern with exotic specie. Some countries, like OZ, had restrictions due to invasive risks, but really most customs/borers are more concerned about disease potential.

almost all countries need a phytosanitary certificate for plants, most also for seeds. tis has absolutely nothing to do with teh invasive risk, and everything to due with pests/disease. introducing peyote anywhere seems harmless. and probabyl isnt a big deal. but we should probably admit our ignorance and assume we know little about the variables and possibilities. lets say we introduce lophohpora to Africa and there just happens to be some kind of succulent virus that goes ape shit inside Lophophora, mutates slightly to better infect teh new host and in turns turns into some kind of super virus against the native flora.

I have no idea about the reality of such things, but that would be my worry more than the platns themselves growing fast and taking over.

wen you look at how many different calsses of "bad organiisms" around, adn how many different species, sub-species and mutations of those there are. and how many things that can be possible hosts, multiply them together and we start to see how many possibilities we have. we know so little, probably on a % scale far less than 0.1% of things like this. i am 1005% against banning plants for humans, but i can understand conservation efforts and banning human spread of plants, despite my wanting to grow them.

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You have a good point kada. You are especially right in regards to our ignorance. We love to think we know it all, but in reality we know very little and to make decisions which can have massive consequences based in almost total ignorance is just asking for a disaster.

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Peyote is not like any invasive plant. It's just too slow. I doubt that it will ever take off being an invasive plant anywhere but the point made is correct.

I have been studying these wild shots for a while now trying to get my head around peyote's home soil quality. I noticed it's quite sandy and drainy out there and the mud seems to be fine grey limestone dust.

I wonder how much supheric minneral is natural for that environment. I'm trying to figure out what they have at home to protect themselves against molds and rot's. They allso seem to have thicker skin even in shade. What brings this about, the air or constant contact with lime?

I'm trying to figure out weather they have stuff at home that they where spicifically adapted to that won't exist elsewhere and thereby put them at risk. If some molds and virusses cannot thrive in that environment for example.

SouthAfrica has more red iron rich clay soil.

Edited by George

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There is always some calcium present in lophophora soils - carbonate is most common but some is as the sulfate. Oxalates too but those tend to keep the calcium tied up.

Not much in the way of organics. Many people make their soil too rich thinking that the increased growth and lushness that results is a good thing for their cacti. Rich or inappropriate components of cactus soil are a common and underappreciated cause of rot in cacti.

That is not to say there are no organics, for a closer look at Lophophora soil and where it comes from you might want to visit:

http://www.erowid.org/plants/peyote/peyote_article4.shtml

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