traits: Spines, curved and bent

[Gunter]

several forms of trichocereus have bent or curved spines, some more so than others

this peculiar and particular trait is fascinating

several forms of bridgesii and peruvianus seem to have the bent spine trait where the spine bends when it is nearly done growing, often toward the base of the plant. this is a very interesting trait that may hold clues about the taxonomic relation of forms

some plants have many curved spines, others have only one or two here or there

i'd like to examine photographs of these traits and the forms associated with it

are curved spines and bent spines common on the cacti in your collection?

check out the downward curved spines on these plants from ecuador, called pachanoi:

http://largelyaccurateinformationmedia.com/pedro/pachanoi_Ecuador.html

http://largelyaccurateinformationmedia.com/pedro/pachanoi_Quito.html

this trait is common to many but not all selections of what is called pachanoi, bridgesii and peruvianus

[CβL]

/\ Hah! What's this guy up to?

But back on topic. Another dimension is the stiffness of the spines. I've seen some very limp spines that although short, if they were long would've bent.

[Gunter]

in some of the cases short spines are bent, as are long ones, and on other cases the spines are curved in all directions(up down, left right etc)

it seems as if some plasticity during spine growth is involved in the trait(s)

some forms/clones lack the trait entirely

isn't that an amazing plant?

I believe that bridgesii represent a population ancestral to material like this, but perhaps alleles were introduced to the population more recently?

[t st tantra]

sometimes i see plants like yowie and psycho0 which often have mainly only 2 downward pointing spines.

grown in my conditions they grow with normal full set of spines.

so i assume it is some variation in growing conditions.

any thoughts about this?

t s t .

[Gunter]

growth conditions clearly affect spine traits, no doubt

some plants appear to have the downward spines in most conditions, others less so

some have only a few on an entire plant, others have them at nearly every areole

in the case of curved spines it is rather consistent, like with the validus, taquimbalensis, werdermannianus types or the terscheckii types etc

[spunwhirllin]

Cool topic Archaea.

I'm not so sure that environmental variables will influence the downward nature of spination,this seems to be purely genetic,although genetics are what they are due to enviromental conditions,go figure.

Good to see you back around.

[Gunter]

yes it seems that no environmental condition will bring the bent spine trait out in plants that do not have the gene/alleles for it

bridgesii is well known for it, but some specific peruvianus selections and pachanoi selections (all the same/single species to me) also share the trait

all forms with this trait seem active, the cuzco types for example typically lack this trait, though they often have curved spines

[tripsis]

I've got a few plants I'll photograph and post here when I get the time and it stops raining. T. werdermannianus and T. atacamensis var. pasacana are two species I have which have curved spines as expected. I have one T. peruvianus "Icaro" which is very unusual however. One every third or fourth areole one spines is sharply bent at the end, so that it essentially hooks back around.

[san p]

this plant grows single long spines with age,half of which curl upwards,pic 2 shows this

whats your thoughts on this one archaea? was sold as t.cuzco because the seller believes twin downward pointing spines is a cuzco trait,where as you said cuzco lack this trait.

[Gunter]

it does not look akin to the cuzco material i am familiar with, but i have seen photographs of cuzco material with some downward spines with the bent spine trait to them

i sued the word typical because there are exceptions and that plant may be one of them, the common cuzconoid material associated with the collection number KK242 does seem to lack the bent spine trait in general, but clearly some forms collected in the region and some forms circulating in horticulture are exceptions to this rule, as well as to the other typical aspects including a lack of activity, whereas some forms of the cuzco material are clearly inactive for the purposes of entheogenic use others are said to be of activity typical for San Pedro cacti. Some variation seems to exist in regard to the cuzcoensis name and i am by no means familiar with all forms allied to the name.

it looks like a great plant!!

[mutant]

Another great Tricho thread

Aussie bridgesii "Tig" shows this two dramatically downwards bent spines trait. After reading tst comment that it shows up in the famous "PsychoO" I thought it might well be a confusion and be one and the same plant. Also of note is Archaea's comment on the bent spine trait and potency.

A consistent pair or maybe couple more thick & curved spines is present with all the 'wendermanianus' as far as I have seen . They often pop up on their own phase-shifted timing, and long after the basic spines of the areole have been formed.

[tripsis]

Here's a few of mine with curved or bent spines.

Trichocereus peruvianus "Icaro"

T. werdermannianus

T. atacamensis var. pasacana

T. bridgesii monstrose. Note that the spines are not bent through force or broken, they have grown in that way.

"T. macrogonus" (I wouldn't actually consider this a macrogonus)

Edited March 27, 2011 by tripsis

[mira]

Another TBM cl. A with a more terminally curved spine:

Edited March 28, 2011 by mira

[Gunter]

this trait seems to be conserved across many plants and makes me feel that it would be prominent in the ancestral form(S) while less so in decedents

this makes me assume that validus type allies may be ancestral to the peruvianoid/macrogonoid and pachanoid forms including bridgesii

[mutant]

Don't have a clue what you mean ^^^ - maybe because I'm drunk.

TIG [maybe Psycho]

my biggest seed grown wendermanianus

biggest wendermanianus [boosted by grafting]

seed grown terscheckii

[zelly]

this trait seems to be conserved across many plants and makes me feel that it would be prominent in the ancestral form(S) while less so in decedents

this makes me assume that validus type allies may be ancestral to the peruvianoid/macrogonoid and pachanoid forms including bridgesii

 

Definition of DECEDENT

: a deceased person —used chiefly in law

http://www.merriam-w...onary/decedents

Don't have a clue what you mean ^^^ - maybe because I'm drunk.

 

Drink much?

[Gunter]

Oops... :D

[Philocacti]

Could it be that some strain that have straight spines, get these curved spines because of the heat effect on the spines??

I have a T. peruvianus/cuszco and a bridgesiiXSS02 that have only one spine, that seems to burned from the heat of the sun.

T. peruvianus/cuszco spine

bridgesiiXSS02 spine

[Gunter]

that looks like mechanical damage to me

here are some examples of curved spines in the genus trichocereus:

http://www.columnar-cacti.org/trichocereus/t_chilensis_lightsp.jpg

http://www.columnar-cacti.org/trichocereus/t_coquimbanus.jpg

http://www.columnar-cacti.org/trichocereus/t_giganteus.jpg

http://www.columnar-cacti.org/trichocereus/t_tacaquirensis.jpg

http://www.columnar-cacti.org/trichocereus/t_taquimbalensis.jpg

[Philocacti]

well the one curve on the bridgesiiXSS02 can be a mechanical damage (although i doubt that) because it was recently transplanted, the other one could have only been heat related or else there is some other critter on my roof that did this damage.

The links you posted show cacti with this genetic trait, but what im aiming for is sometimes these curves are made (maybe) because of environmental effects, like heat.

Here is an example of a bridgesii with curved spines because it was very close to light bulb

here is another one

maybe im wrong but i think these grafts lost this trait after i took them away from the light bulb, i will have to check on that though.

[Gunter]

time will tell, update when it is more clear

[mutant]

this is what I believe is either mechanical or enviromental bending