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J Smith

Consultation on implementation of model drug schedules for Commonwealth serious drug offences

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anti-WOD ?? what does this mean.

 

WOD = war on drugs [which should really be WOSD = war on some drugs].

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Ah damn, forgot all about it! Will have to listen to it online. Sounds like it went alright though.

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I had goose bumps during the radio program, I agree that was a great outcome.

Naja - that newspaper article is just horrible remenent of what bandwagon sells the most news in this state at the moment. I have every confidence it's going to change over time, but if not I'm moving to SA. :wave-finger:

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i don't think the show did that well at all... all the guests were, thankfully, against the proposal, but they were all so damn placid about it! i'm not saying they should have gotten all aggravated and unpleasant (like i'm sure i would have, as i do whenever someone disagrees with me, see above) but the way they presented the informaton was just...well weak. it was all like "erm, maybe this would have some bad effects, i guess".

though i'm sure this stemmed from lack of knowledge and not actual apathy; it did make the law come across as not much of a big deal. someone really needed to say "these plants will be illegal. just as illegal as cannabis. the law as proposed does not allow for any excuse for having such a plant. the paper proposes very harsh penalties for having the plants."

but the speakers were all seemingly unaware of this being the case. they just sounded concerned in general because the matter involved plants; basically whati am trying to say is that they all failed to see the big picture and actual outcome of the proposal.

and then there were the ill informed people (not just the woman who seemed to think opium poppies were perfectly legal) but also the legal expert, leader-elliot. he blatantly said that it wouldn't be illegal to have a few of the plants lying around, and that the feds are only interested in suppliers. this was a major blow to the accuracy of the whole show, i feel. it really begs he question, did he even read the fucking paper??? see there i go again.

and did anyone notice that the host seemed to be absolutely baffled that plants could even contain drugs?? hilarious...though somewhat concerning

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he blatantly said that it wouldn't be illegal to have a few of the plants lying around, and that the feds are only interested in suppliers. this was a major blow to the accuracy of the whole show, i feel. it really begs he question, did he even read the fucking paper??? see there i go again.

 

This issue hasn't been discussed much it seems because it is VERY complex. however technically the expert is right. In practical terms however he is wrong.

The federal proposal itself will not make possession of single plants illegal. The criminal code act clearly requires a commercial intent to be there [eg sales of seeds or plants on ebay or in a nusery]. However, consider these two points before cheering:

1) No nursery will propagate these plantds and seed sales will also be illegal. After a few years these plants will be very hard to get except for those with good contacts and willing to break the law.

2) Everyone seems to forget the main aspect of this proposal. This is not just federal law, but also a proposal for MODEL SCHEDULES to be implemented in state law of each state. The schedules of the proposal are called the model schedules and these list the plants that are to be made illegal. The criminal code itself lists the MODEL OFFENCES. The reason why the minister can say that simple possession will not be a criminal offence under the proposed laws is because they are only looking at the federal implications. here the model schedules are limited by the model offences. ie it is the model offences that give gardeners the protection to grow these plants.

The stated aim of the legislation is however for the model scheduels to be implemented at state level. Two states have done so with the previous model schedules, however no state has implemented the model offences. So the states have picked up the list of drugs and plant, but have not picked up the exemption for simple possession. The states that have currently implemented the previous model schedules will prosecute for possession of a single plant. These states have also of their own accord added Catha edulis and mescaline containing cacti to their state schedules and these are already being enforced, so we have no reason to believe that they will not also enforce an expanded schedule.

The federal government needs to take responsibility not just for the federal implementation, but also for the consequences of state implementation because by their own statements in the introduction of the proposal they are trying to get the model schedules implemented at state level. I was very disappointed that the legal expert [and everyone else] completely missed this point. They are so hung up about the separation of federal and state law that they overlooked how this is actually not so separate at all. In fact, this process is even worse that state legislation because the states will sign up to it as a result of federal pressure as they so often do.

As for the lack of passion, please keep in mind this is radio national. You rarely get excitable people on there. Also, most of them seemed not very comfortable with public speaking, so it is very hard to sound confident if your voice is quivering.

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How long until we hear the results?

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Great show. Could have gone a little longer though.

Me too ,as i said, I did cringe slightly when a caller was confessing that he and a thousand others ingest these plants/substances.

He was the first caller too! A lot of Radio National listeners would have switched off after hearing that... Conspiracy!

I was interested in what the Cactus association guy had to say also, but yeah, he was cut off all too soon.

 

Every caller was, no? This is the main reason that I would have preferred the show to be a little longer. Even just an extra 15 minutes would have been sweet.

Edited by synchromesh

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Well, people, if you haven't submitted by now it's probably too late, unless the AG's department accepts emailed submissions up to midnight. It's certainly worth a try if you haven't done it yet.

I've put mine up on opendecisions.net along with hundreds of others. There are some truly good submissions, and I am impressed with the breadth of the points raised. It's worth a look through them, and the whole open decisions concept is to be lauded.

Oo, and just quietly, I'm looking forward to Alistair Hay's upcoming book:

Hay, A., M. Gottschalk & A. Holguin (2011, in press). Huanduj — The Genus Brugmansia. Florilegium Books, Sydney

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Michael says that submissions will be received by the minister till midnight and by gardenfreedom till about 10.30pm - giving them enough time to forward them. ie the actual deadline [as asked in an earlier post] is midnight AEST.

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Thanks Torsten, I missed that.

Coincidentally it's midnight now AEDST, so I guess the door just closed...

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yes sorry, should have read AEDST, so in fact 1am AEST.

apparently the auoresponder got turned off in the evening sometime.

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If anyone did write a last minute submission, if you havent already please submit a copy (anonymously if you want) at opendecisions.net

there's some very impressive responses already up

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yes, I was very impressed with the quality of the submissions on opendecisions.net

good work!!

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There are drugs at the bottom of your garden

By David Leyonhjelm and Roy Ellery - posted Thursday, 10 March 2011

Innocent gardeners could find themselves charged under federal drug laws if a proposal to add hundreds of plants to the same prohibited list as cannabis is implemented. The plants contain minute amounts of illegal drugs.

Those caught by the proposal include many common cacti, Australian native wattles, many common lawn and pasture grasses and the highly admired ornamentals Angels Trumpets (Brugmansia and Datura).

The Commonwealth Attorney-General's Department is promoting the proposal apparently with the intention of targeting the illicit drug trade. The problem is, it will do little to control criminal activity but will make criminals of a lot of innocent people.

Rather than list the full botanical names of the plants which it would like to see banned, the proposal seeks to ban all plants containing specific chemicals, namely DMT and mescaline, which are illegal hallucinogenic substances.

Those responsible appear to have undertaken no research to discover how prevalent these chemicals are in nature and whether enforcement of such a blanket ban is feasible. If they had done, they would have found that it affects thousands of very important and highly collectable plants.

Up to 10% of the entire cactus family contains mescaline in trace amounts, including common varieties sold in Kmart and Bunnings. However, the amount of mescaline is so minute it would take over a tonne of plant material to extract a single dose for intoxication.

The proposal also nominates all plants of the genus Lophophora (or peyote cactus), even though only some of these actually contain mescaline.

The effect of the prohibition would be to make it illegal for nurseries and propagators to sell many common cactus species, with the sale of a single plant that contained mescaline attracting penalties comparable to those involved in supplying cannabis.

In practical terms these businesses would probably be unable to sell any species of cactus at all, due to the risk that they might contain mescaline. There are simply too many species and varieties in existence for each to be individually analysed in a laboratory.

Continued here

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A CONTROVERSIAL proposal to ban many familiar backyard plants and trees, including angel's trumpet and a large number of wattles, has outraged gardeners and nursery owners.

The federal government says the plants should be prohibited because they could be used to make illegal drugs.

Among the species on the blacklist are many common cactuses containing tiny amounts of mescaline, leading some hobbyists to fear they could be charged under drug laws.

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"In our cactus clubs probably 50 per cent of our members are 50 or 60 years of age," said April Hamilton, the secretary of the Cactus and Succulent Society of NSW. "We grow these plants because we love them, not because there is some mystical meaning in them. Some of our members are worried that they are going to end up going to jail over this."

The dramatically widened list of controlled plants, contained in a discussion paper issued by the Attorney-General's department, would put widespread species such as the leopard tree and the gossamer wattle in the same category as cannabis and magic mushrooms.

"This is a stupid, broad-brush, knee-jerk piece of legislation made by people who have absolutely no idea of botany and who have done no research into the incredible spectrum of plants that would be affected by it," said Robyn Francis, a permaculture expert and author.

Many of the critics argue the schedule is framed too widely, particularly where it seeks to ban any plant containing Dimethyltryptamine, or DMT, a psychedelic drug used in rituals by some South American tribes.

DMT occurs in small quantities in a vast number of plants, particularly wattles, but it is far from clear which individual species are affected.

"There is not a lot of scientific evidence out there on what plants contain nasties such as DMT," said Anthony Kachenko, the national environmental and technical policy manager at Nursery and Garden Industry Australia.

"If they are wanting us to pinpoint what plants to remove from sale or from gardens or cultivation, we wouldn't know where to start.''

"This is a blanket ban that captures a whole swag of plants commonly grown in nurseries across Australia and also sold in retail outlets. They have gone about it the wrong way without any thought for the ramifications."

A spokeswoman for the Justice Minister, Brendan O'Connor, said claims that plants could be banned or growers prosecuted were "ridiculous".

"However, the Commonwealth's drug laws target people who are involved in the illicit drug trade and that will continue to be the case," she said.

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/steps-to-ban-drug-plants-alarm-hobby-gardeners-20110318-1c0lh.html

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"There is not a lot of scientific evidence out there on what plants contain nasties such as DMT," said Anthony Kachenko, the national environmental and technical policy manager at Nursery and Garden Industry Australia.

:rolleyes:

A spokeswoman for the Justice Minister, Brendan O'Connor, said claims that plants could be banned or growers prosecuted were "ridiculous".

:huh: Fuck you bitch. :)

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best part of the story imo

"We grow these plants because we love them, . Some of our members are worried that they are going to end up going to jail over this."

The other day i was thinking about grafted cacti etc... will they still contain traces of anything worth prosecuting for ?

i guess im just getting worried & clutching at straws looking for a loophole in the proposed New Law

if your caught red handed extracting (commercial quantity's) from plant material then yes they may have a case, but it should not give them the right to try pull this sorta shit

im a proud aussie bogan & dont climb on my soapbox often, But.... Australian laws & Cunt$ that are running the show here Need a good shakeup like in other places around the world

Edited by mac
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I was going to steer clear of this thread but as it seems my NEGATIVITY shouldn't really make an ounce of difference now the plan has been set and it's up to the lawmakers.....

best part of the story imo

The other day i was thinking about grafted cacti etc... will they still contain traces of anything worth prosecuting for ?

i guess im just getting worried & clutching at straws looking for a loophole in the proposed New Law

if your caught red handed extracting (commercial quantity's) from plant material then yes they may have a case, but it should not give them the right to try pull this sorta shit

im a proud aussie bogan & dont climb on my soapbox often, But.... Australian laws & Cunt$ that are running the show here Need a good shakeup like in other places around the world

 

Yeah I agree but stand back and have a real good look around at the moment.This isn't a war on drugs,war on plants(WOSP) but control we're dealing with and it's not just us plantheads or Aussies....It's gone global baby!

A grafted Peyote room could turn over a similar amount of un-taxed black-market trade,esp. now it's in the main-stream media and grows in a faster time,possibly near the growth rate of weed.

Ebay won't let ya sell 'em unless you fool them as it stands,yet it is/was legal in some states.

Why?

They need to be barred.

 

Like this?

post-300-0-74593600-1300535316_thumb.gif

One member has been through this and has/is helping using plants and they work...I would sooner see them out of my garden too.

Time will tell.

Alcatrazolam.gif

Alcatrazolam.gif

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point i was trying to make is how far are they gonna take it ? , what about the studies showing broccoli & some of the mustard family of plants have a alkaloid that work on the cb2 receptors

what about pepper, capsicum, chili, saffron ? :o

whats to stop them passing idiotic laws on fruit & veg if they find anything of interest in future studies

opens a whole new can of worms IMO

Edited by mac

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mescalito - Nah, I meant barred as in "you're not allowed to drink here anymore." :wink:

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Just for the record, I had asked mescalito to stop bringing down the vibe and to allow the momentum to flourish because i had been told by people associated with gardenfreedom.com that there were some interesting moves happening. This included pieces in some of the major newspapers [bit late, but that doesn't matter], a political party taking this on board, various garden clubs and associations publicising the issue in their own media, and interest from a number of industry lobby groups. Central to all of that was to not let defeatist attitudes get in the way. But importantly, this thread featured high on the topic in google, so dru-fu paranoid rants really did not help the cause. Mescalito seemed to get this when I chatted to him via PM, but obviouly had a brainfart the next day. Who needs enemies in a campaign like this when you have friends like him.

The campaign has been a huge success with some interesting outcomes that will continue to play a big role for months to come and will seamlessly connect to the campaign that will invariable be launched once an amended form of the proposal makes it to parliament. Michael from gardenfreedom is waiting for statements from the minister's office and will then apparently post all results on the site. Ray from HHH will also summarise his campaign and results in the next couple of weeks.

There is no urgency in this matter at the moment so time to take stock and plan future strategies. It's also a time to bring up negative stuff if you really have to, but it might end up looking silly once the results come in.

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whilst i dont proclaim to be a shaman.......who says i am not one. why is it that one like a mormon can have a legal status, fill out your census form and state your religion........bah, what a pile of crap. mr mormon or mr 7th day adventist can actually sink themselves into secret society's, be protected by brethren and possible take legal action against people they deem to have persecuted their own sense of equality and possible even influence law........why?? because they believe in something in print, they believe in a core spirit and are active in forming a cult like status. im not saying its wrong..............but what is wrong?? wrong........something that is not right........prove to me mr cult religion man, how can you prove to me what you believe in is right. i cant prove it to you but you must have FAITH.................ok, so all this argument has proved is that it is socially acceptable to have faith in a little book/s, a story and a promise of eternal salvation.....................so in esscence once i give my faith to a belief it is up to society to accomidate me for that belief, with hundreds of religions all differering in percepted reality it seems the fabric of humanity known as empathy and co-opertation is all that any religious belief needs to be harmonious in society......i accept you- you accept me and we are even.

then why is it not possible to call yourself if defined by religion a shaman. i am not a shaman but i give my soul over to the belief that earth is almighty, soil provides life, animals and plants provide the mechanism for what in my thoughts is the all encompassing power of the natural force of our world..........to me acceptance of every flower of every tea of every tree and whatever it contains or doesnt contain is all only relative to what fundamentally is only human thought. god cannot be proved yet we almost run society on this whim of a thought which is pretty much only a common fairytail.

i am exempt from a plant law, my religion is shaman and i believe in one god only-that is the god of life, i believe in what is living, i can grow a seed into a tree, i am fertilising my mother planet earth, can anybody in a legal position take me on the stand and dictate to me that on the seventh day god created sunday or whatever he did............and then issue me with a fine suggesting that this same god now enforces a penalty against me for the subsection of acacia laws subsection 2 point c. nah mr lawyer i should say in defense...........i didnt think i was doing anything wrong i am a shaman which under my religious belief entitles me to harvest and grow and make homage to my god earth....and my relion- Shaman.

so im declaring myself a Shaman, is that any more shameful than the proverbial rolling of the dice to become a christian, catholic, hindu, buddhist, mormon or a athiest........which one of these in an ideal world do i choose, even if i get it right...........i have a greater chance of getting it wrong. doesnt sound like very good odds to me to stake the rest of my life for......all for what a chance to guess my religion......ahh but you see thats where the conundrum lies, for you can never be wrong, what you choose is what you feel what you feel is what you believe and if believing this feeling means your not lying to yourself of others based on internal morality alone well then your justified and protected under the sanction of human basic laws protecting personal freedoms.

is it impossible for a judge and jury to convict you of shamanism, it is a relevant and real belief stemming from real historical importance, some justification lies in an actual reform of people who pursue an interest in ethnobotany, if your desire is to just get high well then its the wrong path, the path would be better served by staying a christian and getting drunk on weekends and bumming a cone off your mate, if your reality revolves around an appreciation of gardening and exploring how and why certain species effect people in subtle, non addicting, character building and empowering knowledge kinda ways......helping you to release the dormant spirit inside of you, repairing the body.......exploring your limitations and fears, eductating your peers then you are in actual fact a shaman but you just have not figured it out yet.

a sprig of khat to appease my hunger to me has more cultural and spiritual importance that sipping wine whilst eating a cracker (blood & body of the so called holy spirit). therefore due to its importance to my own internal belief of the almighty power it is as renderable to ban the cracker and wine as it is to ban me from eating my khat sprig. i adhere to the laws of society..........but i dont adhere to the law governing that my shamanism is not real.

the best part about being a shaman is that i am already part of my god, if im a christian god will always rule me....he will judge me, he will punish me, if im a satanist i will never have the power of satan.............however as a shaman i am part of the living ecosystem. i am part of the jigsaw piece and i play a part in the interwoven fabric of the force of life, cause and effect..................today simply i filled my birdbath with fresh water, i sat as i watched many different birds drink this magic water, all those birds knew is that water god filled the drinking hole...........the water was tasty and lifegiving, it sustained me and for that i acnowledge the power of the water god. then the cat sits and stalks the bird bath, if he is lucky he will get a easy meal.......all because of the water god, who is the water god..............well of course the water god is me and only a fictional, possible anthro- morphic thought pattern..............however without as much as a simple action i have dictated to live beings the course of their lives, i have the power to change and disrupt life forces. however as a mini god which i proclaim as being a shaman i do not have to bow to a leader like jesus or god. all i do is bow down to myself..............maybe bow to a shark that eats me whilst swimming or a pesky mosquito bite..............but at least its real and i can prove my existance.

i proclaim that i santiago exempt myself from the proposed plant laws due to the cultural and spiritual laws which dictate the reality of my chosen religion. as a shaman i must adhere to the protection and nursing of life-in the same way a steggles chicken process worker dictates it is ok to slit a chickens throat in the sacrifce it makes to end up in my KFC bucket.

the day will come where a shaman as described above will defend themselves the the law of common man, common man will attempt to sacrifice the shaman in the name of trivial justice, will the shaman have enough bravery to stick to belief of life and defend themselves on the virtue of what they believe. will a judge still convict them of the crime which is only the upholding of shaman sub- spiritualisation-ie almost classified as religion if not religion itself, the shaman may go down on a unequal law which could apon itself be called bias or predudice. a religion always starts from a solitary person....that solitary person creates a thought which defines the people around him and changes the fortunes and spirits of many, a religion such as christianity may have never existed if that first thought, that first person simply bowed to the second person who wrote them off as a lesser human being and fundamentally wrong.

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