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The Corroboree
J Smith

Consultation on implementation of model drug schedules for Commonwealth serious drug offences

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Thank you Torsten, i agree 100%. If we say nothing this time then we might as well be tax-paying obedient little zombies.

If these laws goes through without an itch, then 'they' will feel comfortable to make more and more laws until, in a grim future, you need a license to grow parsley, growing your medicine is punishable by death and you must buy all your (synthetic) medicine, tobacco, alcool through the official channels.

IMO these proposed laws have nothing to do with trying to reduce drug trafficking or trying to address a drug problem. The real agenda is control, and crushing minorities that escape the strong arm of the government. Because people that are connected with nature, grow and know their plants, and have opened their consciousness cannot be controlled by fear or deceit like normal citizens, these people are also less likely to buy synthetic medicine and buy regular amounts of boose and tobacco. . it's just bad for business.

Sorry it might sound like a conspiracy theory , but I stand by it.

Now the real question is : how the fuck do we do to combat these proposed laws ?. If the minister of Justice could wipe his ass with our email submissions I think he would.

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Edited by mescalito

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Ditto in queensland where a large scale Trich grower got busted and the cops didn't even bother trying to nail him for manufacture of mescaline cos they could just nail him for the possession of Trichs.

Could you expand on that Torsten?

Also, if Trichos are illegal in QLD, wouldn't places like Herbalistics and Tropical Food Forest be shut down?

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Could you expand on that Torsten?

No, sorry. Source is ultra reliable, but there is a confidentiality issue. I hope to find court records or somethign similar one day.

Also, if Trichos are illegal in QLD, wouldn't places like Herbalistics and Tropical Food Forest be shut down?

It has been my opinion for a long time that selling trichs in Qld is illegal since the law changes in 2008. herbalistics threatened to sue me for stating so, so I figured I'll just let them work it out for themselves. Tropical Food Forest also sold bulk Psychotria leaves, so i doubt he cares.

The law in Qld no longer uses the term 'preparation', but has replaced it with 'thing'. My Qld solicitor avises me that 'thing' includes plants. And since preparation is no longer required, ie human internvention is no longer the trigger, that makes live growing plants that contain scheduled alkaloids illegal.

Papaver orientale has been illegal in victoria for over 15 years, yet the last commercial nurseries selling it only got raided last year.

Peyote is illegal in Qld, yet you can buy it in lots of places.

Viable poppy seeds [yes, even the culinary kind] have been illegal in Qld since 2008 yet you can buy them at any supermarket.

Mescaline containing cacti are scheduled drugs in SA since 2009 yet Trichs still form some of the best front yard displays in that state.

Just because something is still available doesn't mean it is legal. As with so many things, these laws are often only applied when it suits law enforcement in a different context.

Law enforcement uses two methods to get their outcome:

1) slow attrition - word gets around slowly and after a few years they only have to bust a few last stragglers.

2) sledgehammer campaign - to get media interest they organise a big multi-bust and whip up community fear. The rest is then so scared that both demand and supply vanishes.

Things that are more likely to create opposition are usually done by the slow attrition route. My guess is that most plant laws will be done this way.

Things that get immediate community backing are usually done by the second method. A good example are the coordinated mephedrone busts this time last year.

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Fair enough on both accounts. Do you send cactus orders to QLD and SA?

However in two states this has changed. Why? Because two states have adopted the 'model schedules', ie the very schedules we are fighting against in the proposal. SA has fully implemented the schedules, but did not implement the offences, which means that now people in SA are being prosecuted for having things like Trichs in their gardens - something unthinkable just 5 years ago.

But DMT containing plants, Brugmansia and Datura species are still legal there, right?

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I had this horrible thought last night, What if this was just a smoke screen, a diversion for something greater. What could be greater (worse) than banning plants you say? , I don't know... but what if...

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They probably weren't expecting it to make much of a splash, so I think it's unlikely to be a smokescreen. However, it's possible that they thought if there was opposition, then it would focus on the plant schedule (in particular "any plant that contains..."). I wouldn't be surprised at all if their main aim was the precursors. Or perhaps they will be happy with naming individual plants, and we would be tricked into thinking that was a win for us. I know others have commented on this earlier in the thread, but it's worth reiterating.

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When was the proposal first made public? A couple of weeks after the Codex Alimentarius meeting, wasn't it?

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I feel a bit like my posts are ignored and that is okay I guess... still I feel that my point is valid here, perhaps not held or sighted by even such a minority group such as us, bummer.

I didn't want to detract from anyones efforts politically and think that campaigning in whatever form. i.e. sending submissions or letters of disagreement to the Governor General or your local pollie is still very important. I just hoped that others out there would look beyond the immediate fight and perhaps maintain some of the enthusiasm to make change at an earlier point than this current one.

ignore this post if you want... I just think that our long term health as a species lies in areas other than just being able to grow the plants we love.

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I feel a bit like my posts are ignored and that is okay I guess...

 

I quoted and responded to your last post in this thread...well, the last two if you include this one :lol:

I dunno why you feel ignored. There's a whole bunch of sub-plots running through this thread, and a whole heap of post are ending up with unanswered questions or running into dead-ends.

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thanks mate. I find it hard at times to re read through entire threads to find responses. I appreciate that my small voice is heard, I probably feel unheard because I do at times feel like my perception of reality is a bit far removed from the Jim's of the world. I didn't mean there in anyway that people here are Jim's, just that it is sometimes hard to transcribe the way I think into easily understood language.

Thank you for your acknowledgment of my thoughts.

It is my ultimate aim in this life-time-space-continuum to empower others and I'm really trying to adhere to a medium where that can be most effective. By that i mean without drifting off into hyperspace crazy sounding theories or thoughts that are easily dismissed as a whacked out hippy dude.

Anyhoo... so we've all sent our disapproval if not disgust for this new proposal of making various plants n' things illegal... who is up for a rally then? I think recently I said I was over face offs but maybe a sit in at a relevant time to government proceedings could be in order? It might get a bit of publicity... specially if we all wear at least suits and ties and not pink floyd or psytrance shirts?

If getting publicity is the aim then a direct non-violent action could be called for?

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Anyhoo... so we've all sent our disapproval if not disgust for this new proposal of making various plants n' things illegal... who is up for a rally then? I think recently I said I was over face offs but maybe a sit in at a relevant time to government proceedings could be in order? It might get a bit of publicity... specially if we all wear at least suits and ties and not pink floyd or psytrance shirts?

If getting publicity is the aim then a direct non-violent action could be called for?

 

I kind of agree with T on that. It would probably be counterproductive.

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I feel a bit like my posts are ignored and that is okay I guess..

 

You shallow prick...send me back my scratchy...unscratched if you don't mind...cool.gif

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Fair enough on both accounts. Do you send cactus orders to QLD and SA?

yes. For the cross border trafficking laws to be applicable the substance has to be illegal in both states [source and destination]. we only sell things that are legal in NSW.

But DMT containing plants, Brugmansia and Datura species are still legal there, right?

In Qld all species containing a scheduled drug would fall under the same definition as the Trich situation I explained above.

In SA all species containing mescaline or DMT are illegal. This specifically includes plants as far as I recall.

Brugs are currently not scheduled anywhere, except as weeds, and the dried herb as poison.

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You shallow prick...send me back my scratchy...unscratched if you don't mind...cool.gif

 

sorry man, already won 20 thou on it and am heading off to indo for a year. I will send you some pictures from there though if you like :P

Gosh I find it hard to accept a world where Oleanders are still planted like they are going out of fashion but certain wattle species, a native no less, is on the table to become an illegal item? Jesus

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yes. For the cross border trafficking laws to be applicable the substance has to be illegal in both states [source and destination]. we only sell things that are legal in NSW.

That is very interesting and good information to know. Does this also mean that sending Lophophora species to QLD is legal providing they are legal in the state they are being sent from?

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Does this also mean that sending Lophophora species to QLD is legal providing they are legal in the state they are being sent from?

 

i would assume that it is legal to send, but not receive, ie the receiver can be prosecuted but not the sender. dunno though.

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if the proposal goes ahead then in a few years all states will have adopted the schedules and Trichs will be as difficult to find as salvia. Which might not mean much to you and me, but it means a whole heap to the new generation of plant heads. Just check how desperate many noobs have been searching for salvia for example.

 

exactly. this is my main concern with the legislation, though admittedly it is rather selfish. although i'm not exactly new to this scene, i am still only just starting to get a collection happening (i tend to do things very slowly....). i mean i couldn't give a fuck what is illegal in terms of fear of being busted; we all still smoke pot, nobody frets too much about that.

my fear is that these plants will simply not be available to people like me who have limited collections and limited coNNections to expand. personally i am frantically trying to get some sort of fallback collection happening, just in case this bullshit actually happens and getting things that should be simple, like datura, becomes literally impossible. i am also considering making a doomsday/noah's ark thread in the seed exchange section where we all trade things that will be prohibited under this legislation. i haven't done it yet because i can't find my datura seeds and thus do not have anything else that could set the ball rolling.

of course this isn't my only concern. obviously it's terrible news to basically everyone, and all the relevant points to why this sort of idiocy should not even be conceivable have been made and i agree wholeheartedly with all of them. all i am saying is that i agree with T in that it is important to ensure that these plants will always be available to those who seek them.

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Viable poppy seeds [yes, even the culinary kind] have been illegal in Qld since 2008 yet you can buy them at any supermarket.

 

Say a person was found with white poppy seeds (uncommon for culinary purposes) in a place where they keep 'drug paraphernalia'. This would look very suspicious to authorities, and the person may be charged with possession of viable Papaver somniferum seeds. Do you think it would be an effective defense in court to note that these seeds are legally no different to the ones sold in supermarkets? Or would the fact that the possession of them occurred under suspicious circumstances be enough to guarantee a conviction. Of course no one would be convicted of possessing a packet of Hoyts poppy seeds in their spice rack, so any conviction based on possession of P. somniferum seeds alone would be due to a subjective impression that they were a potential source of drugs, instead of a strictly legal basis.

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ah, also i have a question for torsten. i can't seem to find it now that i look (has it been moved?) but i recall in the rules it states we are not allowed to admit to any illegal activity, and obviously we are not allowed to trade in and ask for illegal plants.

my question is: will this still be the case if this proposal is accepted? because that would be absurd. and yes the proposed law is absurd so it is only fitting, but i can't imagine a corroboree where we can't ask for wattle and cactus seed germination tips :S

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I don't know if I've mentioned it already, but I actually sent a message to the staff at Dave's Garden asking the same question. They stated that they allow discussion and trading of illegal plants other than cannabis on/through their forums and will continue to do so, on the proviso that the discussion revolves around the ornamental use of these plants and not any potential psychoactive use. They cited a case where they removed a thread in which the psychoactive properties of ipomoea species were discussed. Their reason for not allowing discussion/trading of cannabis is that, to their knowledge, the plant has never been used as an ornamental and is known solely as a source of drugs.

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Yo Frank,

through all of this I guess I have been thinking something along these lines and I'm pretty sure I know what T's response will be to your question.

A quick wander over to the mycology section of this forum will reveal a lot.

We don't speak about pot, coca or sally in the ways you suggest because we are 'self moderated'. Hence my point recently about the subjectivity of the laws proposed. In my arrogant opinion it will mean fuck all to people who already love to grow exotic and rare plants.. legal or illegal.

We have just taken an interest in politics because they may threaten some of our current freedoms... I don't recall anyone becoming too concerned around here with the new midwifery laws basically making cranking out a baby at home illegal, or at least ridiculously expensive. Anyone checked that out?

To me this is about so much more than our plants. Pretty much I'm gonna have em and find em and grow em anyway, because I garden and love life... fuck it. This seems to be about something that I dont understand and no one has adequately answered for me in my mind here yet.

Torsten I love ya man, but I can't get past your views being infused with capitalism and your niche within that... I do love your work bro but I reckon it must be hard to take a veiw of the circumstances that steps back from what supports you financially.

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Does this also mean that sending Lophophora species to QLD is legal providing they are legal in the state they are being sent from?

sending is fine, receiving is not.

Say a person was found with white poppy seeds (uncommon for culinary purposes) in a place where they keep 'drug paraphernalia'.....

It does not matter what the circumstances are. All viable poppy seed is illegal in Qld. Whether you are prosecuted or not will be decided by the prosecutor on the basis of potential to achieve conviction. a judge is hardly going to nail you for a jar of seeds you bougth at a supermarket. but he may nail you for a packet that has cultivation information on it becuase it shows clear intent. realistically, neither is going to happen anytime soon, but it shows you how the system works and how these laws are often on the books long before they are enforced.

obviously we are not allowed to trade in and ask for illegal plants. my question is: will this still be the case if this proposal is accepted?

let's worry about that when he time comes. I still hope this stupidity will be defeated. other options are to have the ownership transferred to an overseas entity so that aussie law becomes irrelevant. I can't see that the discussion will change much from what it is currently.

Torsten I love ya man, but I can't get past your views being infused with capitalism and your niche within that... I do love your work bro but I reckon it must be hard to take a veiw of the circumstances that steps back from what supports you financially.

Come up to the nursery one day and see for yourself what it supports. The profit we make from online sales is EXACTLY one full time wage. I think you will find the same for all the other plant sellers too. The plants at best pay for their keeper's wage and that's it. But I am not the keeper. Come and meet the staff that are happy and passionate about what they do, but also need to feed their families. To me it would make no difference if we shut the nursery down tomorrow, except for the plant trading opportunities it provides.

I've been saying this for years..... pretty much ever since we started: It is actually the herb products side of the business that makes the profit, so essentially we'd be better off without the nursery [and it is something we constantly have to questions ourselves about].

I've already discussed with our staff what the impact of the laws would be if they were passed, as they are obviously worried about how this would affect their jobs. I think it would cut our NURSERY turnover by about 50% [ie total turnover less than 25%]. At that point we'd really need to reconsider if it is worth keeping going as the scale of economies would drive up the cost and the nursery would become an even greater burden on the business. The other option is to simply adapt, which is something we have always done. There are always more interesting plants. We also have a huge orchid collection here so we might just diversify into that. or palms. or fruit.

Because it is of little consequence to our finances I am just not concerned about it and won't worry about changes until they are upon us.

As for the laws, I am fighting them because I've spent the last 10 years planting the plants that are on the target list. I'd hate to have to pull them all out. We are on clay soil here and it takes a lot to get each plant growing. the loss in both financial terms and emotionally would be phenomenal.

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