Mushroom media

[shortly]

After having a discussion with SWMBO about what i grow mushrooms on this morning and about TCHM has me thinking about the merits of different medias.

For eg. from what i have heard wild Reishi sells for a small fortune as TCHM whereas farmed Reishi even of the same clone sells for a pittance because the market demands wild mushrooms.

The point SWMBO made was that the life force of cardboard and other highly processed materials is precisely nil but a wild Reishi grows on a living tree albeit a dieing one, so that when one consumes the wild the Reishi you are consuming the life force from both the Reishi and its host.

So, would it be better to grow mushrooms that would normally grow on other living things on an suitable living host, or does it make little to no difference???

What do people think??

[lickapop]

thats an interesting concept, I have never really thought about it. Kinda like the concept of cannibalism;)

I have eaten a few wild matsutakes and I didnt feel like I was consuming a life force... it did make me feel like there was a party in my mouth though

SWMBO - someone who might be obese??

TCHM - the crappy home media??

Edited January 2, 2011 by lickapop

[shortly]

SWMBO = She Who Must Be Obeyed or "The Boss"

TCHM = Traditional Chinese Herbal Medicine

Most of my media's are cardboard, sawdust, planner shavings affairs, with the odd hardwood offcut or palm log & for the most part they do grow mushrooms.

SWMBO is absolutely convinced that all fresh foods have a life force that is beneficial to & necessary for the consumers well being.

She would say fresh pea's straight from the garden were great & that tinned peas are little better than the tin.

Edited January 2, 2011 by shortly

[lickapop]

oh yeah Im familiar with SWMBO..lol

makes sense. fresher foods with all its antioxidants, vitamins and flavour over packaged or or even hydroponic could give the impression of having a life force.

as for wild mushrooms over farmed... from what I have seen and heard wild is definitely "livelier" in its appearance and taste but I cant really say because I have only ever eaten captive mushrooms, apart from a few wild matsutake

Edited January 2, 2011 by lickapop

[Hyphal]

I think there would have to be some merit, but like everything in life it would be a little from both sides.

There would probably be more good stuff in a wild specimen, but that definitely doesn't mean there would be no good stuff in a cultivated specimen. The transfer of energy is so complex we can't fathom it and who's to say that our care and positive attention wouldn't transfer any positive energy or 'life force' either?

I was thinking about a similar th8ing just the other day so Im glad you brought it up...

Would a simialr theory apply to something like the container you use to grow in?

My example is a plastic petri dish compared to a glass one... Now a spore is so small we can't fathom what life is like from its' perspective, but perhaps being introduced to life in a plastic container would affect the the organisms view as it's initially introduced to the world, compared with something more organic like a glass petri?

I know, pretty far out....

[shortly]

Its not so much a question of wild verses cultivated per say, but more a question of culture techniques & what a medias may or may not impart to the mushroom & then onto us? Grown on a living host verses grown on a processed media.

Like comparing Cordyceps sinensis growing on a Himalayan bat moth larvae then harvested from the wilds of the Himalayas verses Cordyceps militaris grown in a lab on an artificial media. Not a great example but i hope you get my drift.

She did mention intent being important as well, weather the shroom was grown purely for the pursuit of $ verses a mushroom grown because for the challenge and fun of it & yummy as a bonus.

It was the glass V plastic debate for production of medicinal shroom mycelium that started all this in the first place.

And yes I have decided to continue using Boro glass as my culture vessels as it's the only material I'm happy to use that would have 0% leaching with continuous usage.

[gerbil]

To me its seems that more complex ecosystems have more ability, for us culturing mushrooms vs wild to me is like a human trying to replicate an ecologically built soil in a bag of potting mix.

There's an instant difference in the mushroom if you crop a flush or two on your culture media in a fruiting tent, then bury it and get later flushes after it's taken on it's new environment. Texture, aroma, colour, flavour etc. all take on a different slant with obvious points of it taking on it's environment, a block buried in a vege patch was instantly earthier and more robust in flavour among other things, no doubt it's nutritional profile changed too.

It's good practice to alter nutrition and structure as a standard depending on context, and a bland diet of more processed materials won't yield the potential of diverse nutrition and substrate structure (competition too!)

I think by SHMBO direction i'm feeling, for complete satisfaction / achieving the dream, you'd almost have to start up an foodforest / local natural ecosystem and get the mushrooms functioning in a broader context, differing models with differing amount of resource utilisation of the ecosystem and human amount of input.

The intent thing is an interesting one, with stories from other parts of ethnobotany about, though on the finance side, i don't think pursuit of $ need be seen on the not so positive side of things , $ pursuit for majority is simply a context of survival / longevity, absolutely it can take on a negative aspect, yet for the majority of folk i think the former applies and an intent put forth in the production to make financial gain can be a very positive thing.

[Hyphal]

Not a great example but i hope you get my drift.

No that was a perfect example I get your drift, it is what I was answering when I said I think its a bit of both. I think that there is no doubt that wild specimens would have a larger diversity of nutrients, but I dont think that by eating a cultivated specimen that you are missing ALL of it's 'life force' that would be derived from growing it in the wild - but certainly some.

Its not as black and white as that I dont think.

To explain how I feel - it would be like drinking old water thats been sitting in a plastic bottle in the sun if you are dehydrated - it's not nice, but it has got to be better than drinking no water (and obviously this is a severe example, eating a cultivated mushroom isn't going to be as bad as drinking old plastic tasting water...).

It was the glass V plastic debate for production of medicinal shroom mycelium that started all this in the first place.

And yes I have decided to continue using Boro glass as my culture vessels as it's the only material I'm happy to use that would have 0% leaching with continuous usage.

 

Fascinating - this has already been discussed? Have you got any links?

[shortly]

Fascinating - this has already been discussed? Have you got any links?

 

Sorry i was being as clear as mud again. That debate was over the kitchen table with SWMBO & Co.

And no nothing is ever a nice neat black and white, more like an infinite number of shades of grey. Still, is it not better to aim toward the white & at least achieve a light shade of grey that drift toward the dark.

Gerbil the intent is an incredibly complex facet from what i gather, It too is an infinite number of shades of grey. I dont think having your sole motivation being the pursuit of money is a good thing at all, but then i dont believe there would actually be many people who actually do. I would imagine the intent of the vast majority of commercial growers would be to gain money as a means to an end, as it is for most of us i suspect, not sefless but not purely avarice either.

On the nutrient side of the dice, this has me wondering how effective mycelium grown in LC might actually be as a medicinal, given that all the mycelium has to "work with" is some honey water. Or is it also a case of a little is better than none at all??

[dworx]

The intent thing is an interesting one, with stories from other parts of ethnobotany about, though on the finance side, i don't think pursuit of $ need be seen on the not so positive side of things , $ pursuit for majority is simply a context of survival / longevity, absolutely it can take on a negative aspect, yet for the majority of folk i think the former applies and an intent put forth in the production to make financial gain can be a very positive thing.

 

Gerbil - Do you mean that for the majority of folk growing mushrooms that the $$$ gain is secondary and just a means of survival, I think that for most it isn't necessarily $$$ for survival but for profit that allows them to live outside of just surviving. Whether it is just mushy growers or a generalisation, if you look at the populations in western society you can see people live beyond survival or their needs, and live in wants i.e. I want an ipod, I want a new car. I think this is negative energy and that is what is hurting this world..

[tripsis]

This is an interesting topic.

I agree that different substrates will result in different nutritional profiles in the resultant mushrooms, but I don't think that's necessarily to do with wild vs. cultivated. If we could actually mimic a wild environment, with all the other microorganisms, plants and insects present, then I would think that we should technically be able to produce mushrooms with identical nutritional profiles as those in the wild. But of course, our understanding of ecology is far to basic for us to be able to do this. What we can do though is grow outside, whether that means creating an axenic block and then burying it or placing it in a suitable environment, or simply inoculating logs, stumps, etc. It makes sense that growing on cardboard and sawdust will result in fruits that lack certain chemicals, compared to those which are grown in an environment where there in contact with other organisms, even competitors. As a matter of fact, having to deal with competitors would almost certainly trigger the production of particular chemicals, for defence or attack, which then may be of benefit to ourselves. Killing a living tree with reishi is not necessary in my opinion, and definitely not to be condoned. Remember that reishi is considered a pathogenic weed here and anyone that has grown would understand why. It is extremely aggressive and has a wide preference of substrates. Perhaps if you are thinking of doing outdoor grows with Ganoderma species, you could consider the Australian species instead shortly, which you would find quite readily where you are.

Glass is always better than plastic. I only drink out of glass bottles (or stainless steel if travelling) for that reason. It's worth the extra weight in my bag for water that isn't slowly becoming poisonous and that tastes good.

As for the pursuit of money, we all need to make a living, one way or another. If we can turn our passions into a way to get by, I see no reason why we shouldn't, as long as we don't let greed blind us or lose sight of the bigger picture.

[gerbil]

Gerbil - Do you mean that for the majority of folk growing mushrooms that the $$$ gain is secondary and just a means of survival, I think that for most it isn't necessarily $$$ for survival but for profit that allows them to live outside of just surviving. Whether it is just mushy growers or a generalisation, if you look at the populations in western society you can see people live beyond survival or their needs, and live in wants i.e. I want an ipod, I want a new car. I think this is negative energy and that is what is hurting this world..

Well what is survival and is basis survival beneficial or even ethical, respectful to life (potential) even, when the human being is capable of incredible things, essentially anything we put our minds to, longevity and consuming can be worked in beneficial ways, just not the way we are doing it now, it gets far too intricate, like how far is it ethical for a species to advance their medical systems? 'cause we are all living beyond our means with advanced medical knowledge be it natural based tribal society or progressive metal etc technology medicines/machines society that we are.

I sorta meant that we are in a system that demands money, we can choose somewhat to live a life free of that (once we've secured the initial finance to actually get land to be able to not partake in revenue raising), though if your house burns down, family gets sick etc. a life with no savings in a financially classed system restricts the individual to almost no care or support.

If someone really enjoys production of food, but they are in the financial system of make it or be left behind struggling, the pursuit of $ to better ones circumstances, their production setup, the well being of their family is in no way a negative thing. Getting into intricacies of being a capitalist and banks investing your money into systems which creates unethical class systems is where it gets tricky, but we are born into this system, evolve and work the rythym or be screwed over it seems, ideals are great but positivity can be worked within a negative system.

The position of money doesn't dictate one has to consume (or consume negatively), it allows choice, restraint and responsibility in positions of money will dictate how you use that money and influence the world around you, having $ and building your neighbour a pig pen being different to buying a porno dvd, so in a system that squallors many, i can't see how promoting a responsible economy and striving for higher savings is a negative thing, the individual will be dictator of their society. If on an energetic intent level, if positive productive energy is put forth to make a huge profit to do beneficial things for your society, how is that negative and how can the mushroom pick up that intent as negative or not have as such a life force as another mushroom grown in healthy dynamic (was going to say positive, but nature isn't positive, it kills brutally as well as gives birth) environments.

To me the pursuit of money can be negative and can be positive, if talking about something taking on a life force/intent from a desire for $ it does not have to be negative, the individual makes it so on their specific level, though in an economy we are still a part of a larger system so any unethical behaviour from the above tiers, or even individual can effect us all, though if individual intent can't be delineated from more unethical behaviour in the system they are in, then to me nothing on this planet can really be of this positive life force.

I suppose there are two main elements complicating everything, the system we live in and taking into account models to live within that knowing we are in a corrupt unethical brutal system, then a system which we envisage where we can make similar resources function in different and more equal manners, $/economy being a huge one. The reality vs the dream, can achieve the dream through changing reality but it appears mostly we are too far gone to achieve the dream on a global scale, at least in our lifetimes.

geeze big topic, started getting into basis survival vs technological cosmology etc and took restraint LOL can of worms from mushroom media.

A basis that can be meditated on for a lifetime: $ are a human construct.

( i realise i've repeated myself a bit, finding it hard to edit it all down and make sense :D )

Edited January 3, 2011 by gerbil

[shortly]

Don't get me wrong, i am not & would not condone infecting perfectly healthy trees with what are after all rather aggressive mushrooms, although i wouldn't hesitate to inoculate the odd Chinese elm or camphor laurel stump. The top part of a good sized tree is far too good to use just for mushroom media.

And i don't believe large scale wild harvesting of most species is much of an option either, too little wild habitat & too many people. The only saving grace is that the vast majority of people are quite mycophobic & tend to treat any wild mushroom as a "toadstool"

I plan on changing to using windfall timbers(branches etc that have fallen naturally) for the woodlovers, rather than pallets, cardboard & pellets.

Its a compromise between using processed media's & a living host.

I figure that even though they aren't alive now, i didn't have to fell a living tree to get them & other than a hand saw nothings been done to them prior to pasteurization. Besides its recycling timbers that otherwise would only go for kindling or mulch at best, plus its zero $ cost, just my time & energy.

"As a matter of fact, having to deal with competitors would almost certainly trigger the production of particular chemicals, for defence or attack, which then may be of benefit to ourselves."

Very interesting point, definitely worth investigating how i may be able to put this into practice in some form in future.

Its not that the pursuit of money is necessarily a bad thing in & of itself, the pursuit of money for all manner of reasons is IMHO quite valid & quite often groups will pursue money for entirely altruistic reasons, which is wonderful.

Its more when the money itself is the end, rather than a means to an end that things become less pleasant. These are very muddy waters indeed.

[themushroombloke]

Its not so much a question of wild verses cultivated per say, but more a question of culture techniques & what a medias may or may not impart to the mushroom & then onto us? Grown on a living host verses grown on a processed media.

Like comparing Cordyceps sinensis growing on a Himalayan bat moth larvae then harvested from the wilds of the Himalayas verses Cordyceps militaris grown in a lab on an artificial media. Not a great example but i hope you get my drift.

She did mention intent being important as well, weather the shroom was grown purely for the pursuit of $ verses a mushroom grown because for the challenge and fun of it & yummy as a bonus.

It was the glass V plastic debate for production of medicinal shroom mycelium that started all this in the first place.

And yes I have decided to continue using Boro glass as my culture vessels as it's the only material I'm happy to use that would have 0% leaching with continuous usage.

 

I've growns some p.pulmonarius indoors and outdoors and i found there to be a remarkable difference between the 2 fruiting bodies. Although the mushroom grown indoors was fantastic the semi-wild outdoor fruiting body had more flavour, colour and texture. I believe that in the wild there are minute traces of minerals and compounds that a mushroom can draw on to get that extra colour, texture, flavour and perhaps even medicinal qualities. There are microscopic things going on that we just dont see. However i think you can get pretty close if you farm something like reishi out doors and in the correct enviroment. Is there a place in australia that fits the bill? I'm not sure, probably.

[tripsis]

Ganoderma multipileum (syn. G. lucidum) is considered a weed here. Cultivating it outdoors could very well land you in trouble.

Edited January 11, 2011 by tripsis