Jump to content
The Corroboree
Sign in to follow this  
apothecary

LSA Extraction

Recommended Posts

Quick question. Can Isopropyl 99% be used as the polar liquid section of the nonpolar/polar extraction of LSA from HWBR/Morning Glory seeds?

(as opposed to say, ethanol, or methanol).

Any replies appreciated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't see why not , but 100 % ethanol is available OTC why not use it ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm...where is it available? I emailed a chemical supplies retailer and got this reply:

"Thanks for the enquiry. We have both denatured and un. To buy un,

you will need a license from the ATO, but you can get a license for 20lts

per year fairly easily.

Our undenatured is very high grade - 99.9%. No impurities.

Same with the denatured. Very high grade, with just the denaturants added.

We can sell this to you straight out. Available as 1ltr or 2.5ltr in small

pack sizes."

Where can one obtain 100% undenatured ethanol? Denatured ethanol is available from most hardware stores, but is also highly poisonous.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's metho , the kind used for french polishing is 100 % , PM me if you want the brand it's not hard to find (hint it's clear not brown)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is illegal to sell 100% ethanol (without denaturant) wihtout applying alcohol tax. I think your product is probably mislabeled. Like they put "100% acetone" on tech grade acetone.

Anyway, tech grade ethanol in Oz always has at least 5% water in it cos it is made from cane.

Why don't you post the brand name?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I didn't think you'd be able to get ethanol that simply. Torsten, back to the original question, can I use isopropyl? Or is it dangerous?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

quote:

Why don't you post the brand name?


Must be a hang up from them old NO SOURCES ! days any as those days are well behind us here goes:

SCENEYS 100% methylated spirits contains 1000ml/L ETHANOL

FOR USE IN FRENCH POLISHING

It's clear and clean and have used it in many extaction myself.It must be something to do with french polishing ? I no nothing about french polishing except mums dinning room table is french polished and it look very shinny :D

As far as LSA extraction from HBW goes why not just use plain old water ? Clean the fuzzy stuff of , soak for a short time , then leave to evap in a clock glass ? As far as looking for a solvent that is' not toxic ' it doesn't exist to the best of my knowledge there all bad , you just except it as the price you pay for doing such things.

Methanol can be bought from the places that supply fuel for sprint cars , you buy it in 220L drums of the shit but fuck knows what you would do with it all.

quote:

tech grade ethanol in Oz always has at least 5% water in it cos it is made from cane.

I know methanol is made from cane , didn't know where ethanol comes from , you learn something every day :P

Actually why even bother with this stuff why not ether ? 99.97 pure available online and OTC:

web pagehttp://www.grow.com.au/poilextractors.html

:P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Check out this :

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/ar...php/t-6141.html

especially the first post by Neil.

It seems the "100%" stuff still contains a denaturant. It just doesn't contain water.

Btw the presence of water is not really due to the original source, it's just because pure ethanol is hydrophilic. You can distill until the cows come home and never get better than about 95%.

http://www.mines.edu/Academic/met/pe/facul...azeotropes.html

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

SCENEYS 100% methylated spirits contains 1000ml/L ETHANOL

Their labelling doesn't make any sense. How can you have METHYlated spirits that are 100% ethanol?? Impossible!

I know methanol is made from cane , didn't know where ethanol comes from , you learn something every day

Ethanol comes from cane, ie from the sugar out of cane.

Methanol is usually manufactured in the petroleum industry as a (by)product. Methanol is also called woodalcohol, so I presume it is derived from fermenting woody things?

The bottom line is that any ethanol you pay less than $40/L is going to be denatured! Most simply have a bit of methanol and some of that extremely bitter substance designed for this purpose. The thing is, that both methanol and the bitter thing have similar boiling points to ethanol as the purpose is to make distilling them off impossible (otherwise we could just distill some metho to get bacardi).

So by boiling off the metho from whatever you are extracting you are also removing the other nasties. Metho is actually quite safe to use for extraction as long as the solvent is removed fully.

To the original question. Isopropyl has a lower solubility of those compounds I would presume, but it should still be OK. It also has a high boiling point, so evaporating it means high temps which means dead product. I would suggest methanol here simply to facilitate evaporation at low temps.

As far as toxicity goes, as long as your evaporate it all they are all equally safe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does the bitter substance evapourate as easily as the methanol?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

apparently. If you distill metho you will get pretty much the same thing coming out the other side. It still contains some methanol (although with a large column some of this can be removed) and is certainly still just as bitter.

I've made lots of crude herbal extracts that were destined for further purification (especially essential oil plants with low oil yield) and the bitterness doesn't appear to remain after evaporating the solvent. hence I think it evaporates and distills at the same rate as ethanol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do NOT consume anything labeled methylated ethanol or denatured. It is very very poisonous and will kill or blind you. The damage is cumulative so if a tiny bit does not seem to hurt you, it does not prove it's ok. Read the label, if it says not for human consumption and poisonous, take their word for it and don't drink. Isopropyl alcohol is toxic also. It's not as bad as methanol but it's bad. Either of these things can be used but be very careful that all is evaporated before using. Avoid breathing fumes. If it was me, I'd use ethanol and pay whatever they want.

Stoney

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hi guys

I,m petty sure ethanol also comes from grain,at least it does at the manildra factory which is supposed to be one of the biggest producers in the country.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey Andrew long time no talk :)

Home-brew(grain)produces ethanol and other alcohols so I guess you could distill the good stuff and know what your getting.You could also buy a couple of cases of VB and distill that as it's not fit for human consumption anyway :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ethanol is made from anything that contains sugars as this is what the yeasts feed on. This includes germinated grain, potato, grapejuice, and various more exotic bits and pieces. However, the most efficient and cleanest way is to simply use white sugar (which comes from sugar cane).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah I agree sugar cane would have to be the best.

The ethanol produced at manildra is a byproduct from the starch they make,I think.

Gidday mesc/maca.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

why 'wood alcohol'?

methyl alcohol, or wood alcohol, CH3OH, a colorless, flammable liquid that is miscible with water in all proportions. Methanol is a monohydric alcohol. It melts at -97.8°C and boils at 67°C. It reacts with certain acids to form methyl esters. Methanol is a fatal poison. Small internal doses, continued inhalation of the vapor, or prolonged exposure of the skin to the liquid may cause blindness. As a result, commercial use of methanol has sometimes been prohibited. Methanol is used as a solvent for varnishes and lacquers, as an antifreeze, and as a gasoline extender in the production of gasohol. Large amounts of it are used in the synthesis of formaldehyde. Because of its poisonous properties, methanol is also used as a denaturant for ethanol. Methanol is often called wood alcohol because it was once produced chiefly as a byproduct of the destructive distillation of wood . It is now produced synthetically by the direct combination of hydrogen and carbon monoxide gases, heated under pressure in the presence of a catalyst.

re Drinking methanol

If you ever get close enough to a legal still try running red wine through it - its scary how much methanol is in it!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to clarify , wether or not the ethanol was denatured or not was not an issue for me as i evaporated off all the solvent and at no time intended to consume any.The water content was more of a concern.I can't find the MDS for the product I have used but the MDS for "Diggers 100 % " (sounds like a similar product)states it contains :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the 90's I remember my high school chemistry teacher elling me that methylated spirits are usually contain no methanol and only have colour and bittering substances added to make them very unpleasnt to drink.

True or not, it kind of would make sense.

1. Some wino's drink metho daily and they seem no worse off than any other hardcore alcoholic.

2. Would companies knowingly poison people by methylating ethanol when they are fully aware that some people will drink it? (possibly)

3. Like 2benubee pointed out diggers claim that their metho contains less than 0.1% denaturants.

That 0.1% would probably account for the bittering substances. Most wines probably contain more than 0.1% methanol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One of my friends, well versed in biochemistry did some experimenting with metho, and found the same thing as what Doms high school teacher said. No metho content at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

would diethyl ether be good for xtracting LSA?

cheers

aaron

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Methanol is a biproduct in only some fermentation due to the presence of pectin (as darcy mentioned): i.e. why red wine (with grape skins) gives ya a worse hangover than beer or vodka. It ranges a lot from company to company, but usualy metho is mostly ethanol, a small amount methanol (1-5%), a bittering agent to make it taste shit (heard conflicting reports whether this is volatile or not), and worst of all - pyridine and wood napthas, which are extremely toxic. These are added specificaly as they have BPs almost identical to ethanol, so they cant be seperated by distilation. "The Australian/New Zealand Food Authority Act has chosen pyridine & wood naptha because they BOND in an ethanol/water solution most delightfully to the point that to separate this evil concoction you would need rising/falling film distillation equipment which worked under vacuum as well and then the result after one pass may only be marginal. This cost for this sort of equipment starts around 6 figures" - eek.

Now, assuming the bittering agents arent volatile, one could distill it, use it as polar/nonpolar solvent, then make sure its all evaporated. Oh, and dom - methanol is defiately more posinous than ethanol - directly attacks the optic nerves for example, which is the reason for ppl going blind after drinking bootleg liquor (which was laced with cheap methanol). The reason they add all this shit is to avoid government taxing on alcohol - so it aint a good idea to drink it.

On a last note - if ya get yourself 100% eth dont leave the bottle open - being hygroscopic (thats the term, right?) it absorbs moisture from the air diluting it to 96.5%.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My gnomes recomendation for LSA extraction - powder the seeds in a baloon by smashing with a hammer, mix with vegetable oil for 5 mins, allow to settle for 15, then decant (or filter if you could be bothered to wait that long) - repeat 2 times. take your seed mush and either down it right there (bah i hate the texture), or shake each doses worth up in about a shot or 2 of spirits for a few mins, then decant/filter again. Voila - removed all the nasty essential oils without using any possibly toxic solvents at all (unless ya count the spirits :P ). You may still experience slight nausea (my gnome doesnt - only some of his friends do), which is easily counteracted with our good old buddy mary jane. Cmooon, someone has to try my gnomes own method for takin HBW :mad: - mentioned it a few times so far.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

100% Isopropyl alcohol is safe as long as you remove all the solvent from the final product.

Ethanol denatured with isopropyl is the safest of the denatureds as the iso evaporates completely.

To test to see if your solvent is useful, put some in a clear glass dish and let it evaporate completely. There should be NO residue.

Any residue left behind means it is not safe for use.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

100% methylated spirits is exactly that 100% denatured alcohol. I had a long chat about this with a major chem supplier in SA. He told me that the denaturant was only to make the product taste to bad to drink. It is not toxic but all the approved denaturants boil within 1 degree of ethanol to prevent distillation being used. The notion that you are going to use 100% ethanol at home is laughable. Firstly I promise you anyone who thinks they've got some is wrong. EtOH forms an aezeotrope with water at 95% but the real problem is how hydrophillic it is. If you have ever opened the bottle it is no longer 100%. If its been in aplastic bottle for a year it would also have absorbed appreciable amounts of water. And the problem doesn't stop at 95%. EtOH will suck the water out of the air until its concentration is way below this. If your chemistry calls for a dry alcohol expect to either have a $20K flushed nitrogen dry box or be doing everything with syringes through septums.

All this is a bit fancy for a biological extraction though. Any proceedure calling for alcohol is refering to 95% EtOH. The biological material is going to contain water to start with. The 5% water is bound as an aezeotrope and not readily available to interfere. It takes a powerful reagent like sodium metal or CaO to interupt this relationship with water.

The question of toxins is quite redundant when you compare the LD50s of the denaturant with the LSAs. I would personally go with methanol. Available in a high grade for $33 per 20L at local fuel supplier. Look in the phone book under gas suppliers. These companies are everywhere in outer metropolitan areas. They sell bulk fuel and gas. It does not form an aezeotrope with water so is very dry even in the technical grades. It is a more polar solvent than EtOH or IprOH. Yes it is toxic. 10mL can send you blind and 30mL can kill. A residue in your prep will not harm you though. It is not carcinogenic. I'll bet you would ingest more in a day at the drag races than you would from your extraction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×