Psychedelic to break a loop

[GingaNinja]

I dont get why you are hammering at this topic so much HM. you have made it pretty clear that you like and value the visual experience.

Sure to disregard visuals as useless could be considered wasteful or wrong but no more so then suggesting that a person hasnt experienced true psychadelic realms/healing only on the grounds that they have not had strong visauls.

anyone see Robin Rodds presentation at EGA 07 i think it was. Something along the lines of has the west overvalued the visual aspect of aya. Was a pretty cool and fair critique I thought. It seemed some audience members felt threatened by the idea going of the vibe of some of the remarks during the question time.

[mutant]

...just wrote a totally non-appropriate bulldozer response, but then I thought, what did I learn?

- so I erased it all and here I am...

I dont get why you are hammering at this topic so much HM

because I dared to comment on his friend's dark alienating experience. Because I dare to form my own psychedelic theory to use for me and my own [people] and openly speak about it. Because I dare to question psychedelic deism. Because I praise individuality, as opposed to submitting to McKennas messiah complex.

Sure to disregard visuals as useless could be considered wasteful or wrong

I might have said that 'they seem useless to me', and that was for what I have experienced till now. I also said I have pleasantly been surprised, when they have occured more intensely, in short bursts, but all in all I don't find them much interesting.

My question: what kind of enlightment do people who cannot grasp the concept of individuality have received off psychs? Sounds more like a religion or a sect than enlightment in my eyes, sorry...

[Chiral]

Ok seems to me that you should probably already know what the definition of psychedelic is...

The term psychedelic is derived from the Greek words ψυχή (psyche, "soul") and δηλείν (delein, "to manifest"), translating to "mind-manifesting"

[psyche + Greek dloun, to make visible (from dlos, clear, visible; see dyeu- in Indo-European roots) + -ic.]

Of, characterized by, or generating hallucinations, distortions of perception, altered states of awareness, and occasionally states resembling psychosis.

n.

1. (Law / Recreational Drugs) relating to or denoting new or altered perceptions or sensory experiences, as through the use of hallucinogenic drugs

2. (Law / Recreational Drugs) denoting any of the drugs, esp LSD, that produce these effects

3. (Fine Arts & Visual Arts / Art Terms) Informal (of painting, fabric design, etc.) having the vivid colours and complex patterns popularly associated with the visual effects of psychedelic states

[from psyche + Greek delos visible]

Adj. 1. psychedelic - producing distorted sensory perceptions and feelings or altered states of awareness or sometimes states resembling psychosis; "psychedelic drugs like psilocybin and mescaline"

psychoactive, psychotropic - affecting the mind or mood or other mental processes; "psychoactive drugs"

2. psychedelic - having the vivid colors and bizarre patterns associated with psychedelic states; "a psychedelic painting"

colorful, colourful - having striking color; "colorful autumn leaves"

3. psychedelic - (of a mental state) characterized by intense and distorted perceptions and hallucinations and feelings of euphoria or sometimes despair; "a psychedelic experience"

agitated - troubled emotionally and usually deeply; "agitated parents"

Therefore and there will be some disagreeably here on this I'm sure...psychoactive & psychotropic are stages that are part of the psychedelic experience, psychedelic is the full visionary state which one experiences.

Whats my point...?

The thread asks "which psychedelic to break the loop" of cannabis use...assuming that the OP wishes to enter a psychedelic state, and have a full blown experience, in an attempt to rid themselves of a habit they see as detrimental to their life. I think what this is all really about is, and prolly should have been asked differently is...hey guys I wanna give up or slow down my cannabis use...is there anything you can recommend I use to assist me in this,or is the only way through willpower and me actually really wanting to stop...?

I think everyone including me has gotten all high and mighty about our precious sacraments because mutant asked specifically which "psychedelic", we all know that a good kick in the brain by a strong clean dose of acid or potent mushrooms can have some extraordinary effects and allow us to see ourselves stripped of our ego's, and feel, see and realize the things in our lives that are holding us back etc..I used some potent as fuck lucy to tear me down and fuck me over when I was desperately trying to rid myself of a pitiful painkiller addiction...it did what I wanted it do because that's the state of mind I put myself in and asked for it...mind you it showed me in all my sad pitiful glory, stuff I already knew, but the reinforcement was overwhelming and I was grateful.

I feel that if you really embrace psychedelics and really truly believe they have a positive effect on your life and I'm a believer that when you think like this then they can work, but you really have to want to work with them...there is getting high and there is working with these compounds, these are two different mind sets and basically opposite use's.

FWIW, I've never known anyone to successfully use psychedelics to quit a cannabis addiction, it has worked quite well with other addictions though like cigs, booze, crack, meth and smack. Cannabis use is a lifelong way of life for those that enjoy it, and I think that you are one of those people mutant, I actually don't think you want to really give it up or even cut back...if you really did then you would just would stop cold turkey and get on with it. There are no magic potions in life really, these drugs sometimes show us the paths but they can't actually make you take them unless you really want to.

[incognito]

i think chiral and mutant are secretly in love, and if left alone in a private room would explode into unbridled, sweaty, exotic man-love.

edit- FWIW, I've never known anyone to successfully use psychedelics to quit a cannabis addiction, enter ayahuasca, i know of several. If you truly want to, and give it all of your intention, from what i hear its extremely effective. i think if you search here there will be a thread by Gomaos on just that topic.

IMO ur never ever gonna quit ANYTHING unless you really and truly want to, with every ounce of your being. so yeah lets not tart on about this any longer hmmkay?

Mutant you have been offered a damn lot of avenues to explore, i think the rest is up to you buddy. best of luck!! xxx

Edited May 11, 2010 by incognito

[Chiral]

i think me and mutant are secretly in love, and if left alone in a private room would explode into unbridled, sweaty, exotic man-love.

edit- FWIW, I've never known anyone to successfully use psychedelics to quit a cannabis addiction, enter ayahuasca, i know of several. If you truly want to, and give it all of your intention, from what i hear its extremely effective. i think if you search here there will be a thread by Gomaos on just that topic.

IMO ur never ever gonna quit ANYTHING unless you really and truly want to, with every ounce of your being. so yeah lets not tart on about this any longer hmmkay?

Mutant you have been offered a damn lot of avenues to explore, i think the rest is up to you buddy. best of luck!! xxx

 

Fixed...

oh and stop repeating what I already said in my post ya copycat psychedelic bounty hunter.

I can't see mutant doing aya to be honest..aya scares the be jeesus out of even the very hardest and experienced trippers, maybe I'm wrong but aya is powerful powerful tool and you really need to be wanting and embracing that experience, it's not a few beers and half a weak blotter that's for sure.

[incognito]

I can't see mutant doing aya to be honest..

chiral no wonder the guy gets the shits with you!! you know him that well?

aya scares the be jeesus out of even the very hardest and experienced trippers

again, have u ever done it?

aya can be an extremely beautiful, healing and enlightening experience.

I really dont think you can comment on things on which you have NO experience.

oh and stop repeating what I already said in my post ya copycat psychedelic bounty hunter huh? again if ive copied ur recomendation of aya in an earlier post, im sorry, i havent read every single post in this thread. Have you done aya chiral? if not im at a loss as to why you would recommend in the first place, and secondly come back and say that u think he would never do it?? i dunno old boy things aernt really making sense.

bounty hunter?? would i really get much money for handing you in??

Edited May 11, 2010 by incognito

[mutant]

My question: what kind of enlightment do people who cannot grasp the concept of individuality have received off psychs? Sounds more like a religion or a sect than enlightment in my eyes, sorry...

[Chiral]

again, have u ever done it?

I really dont think you can comment on things on which you have NO experience.

oh and stop repeating what I already said in my post ya copycat psychedelic bounty hunter huh? again if ive copied ur recomendation of aya in an earlier post, im sorry, i havent read every single post in this thread. Have you done aya chiral?

 

3 times...well the first one was basically a tester on the work up, but the second 2 were nice although not enough light was used in them as it's rather difficult to assess spice content from leaf and I didn't want to overshoot the mark as being alone might have been a little much.

I didn't recommend aya ya wally, see if you actually took the time to read the posts then you wouldn't be putting ya foot in ya mouth..

Cannabis use is a lifelong way of life for those that enjoy it, and I think that you are one of those people mutant, I actually don't think you want to really give it up or even cut back...if you really did then you would just would stop cold turkey and get on with it. There are no magic potions in life really,

then you said..

IMO ur never ever gonna quit ANYTHING unless you really and truly want to, with every ounce of your being. so yeah lets not tart on about this any longer hmmkay?

Incog the bounty hunter...he tracks down trippers for cash for fertilizers, car-parts and bags of 2 minute noodles..

I don't understand the question mutant...even in bold I have trouble deciphering it...oh and I don't think mutant hates anyone he is pretty brave and decent guy from what I can see....guy's got a kick arse bit of land and is a pretty full on grower of sorts...we all just like the banter around here sometimes...it keeps us warm and toasty in cold months...ey mutee...

[holymountain]

My question: what kind of enlightment do people who cannot grasp the concept of individuality have received off psychs? Sounds more like a religion or a sect than enlightment in my eyes, sorry...

sorry don't understand.

because I dared to comment on his friend's dark alienating experience. Because I dare to form my own psychedelic theory to use for me and my own [people] and openly speak about it. Because I dare to question psychedelic deism. Because I praise individuality, as opposed to submitting to McKennas messiah complex.

oh mutant, you darer! daring like no others have dared before! you are pushing the boundaries with your daring questions!!

why don't you dare to have a decent dose then we can talk about these things together. the reason i'm 'hammering' this point is because i keep getting dragged back into this to defend the shitty generalisations you make on my behalf. if you knew what you were talking about you wouldn't make these grand statements. there is no need to submit to Mckennas messiah complex (sounds like you don't really know much about the dude anyway). just a submission to a tried and true method of accessing the mushroom and it's teachings. can i possibly recommend it to you without coming across as a religious tryant like you suggest? and then maybe you'll stop coming across like a blind atheist assuming you know the answers to everything.

[FancyPants]

I can't see what the arguement is against my history of alcohol use and my shyness. Maybe you assume every shy person is the same with the others or that shy personalities are due to the same universal reasons? I get the impression alcohol didn't help you much. Care to elaborate?

 

Because in my humble opinion using drugs to help personality "disorders" (in the general sense of the word) is still using drugs to help personality "disorders". Shouldn't the aim if possible and within reason be to have the substance help you evolve and develop on your own? Alcohol only helped me when I was using it, so I don't really see it as helping ME, just using it as a crutch. MDMA helped me far more with socialising to the point where I certainly didn't need the substance to help me feel more at ease in social situations. It wasn't the only thing, I'd also started going through a big personality shift already which is much of the reason I'd wanted to try substances (other than alcohol and MJ) in teh first place.

[mutant]

MDMA helped me far more with socialising to the point where I certainly didn't need the substance to help me feel more at ease in social situations

well, alcohol did that for me, so I guess it's 'everyone's different'. MDMA is also not to be taken often.

Ok, I will rephrase for the two that still don't understand. It's a rhetorical question Chiral, not a real one...

Respecting the concept of the individual, accepting each man with his own treats and traits and cons is different in theory VS practice, like with most things. Religious approaches and superbeliefs are the problem, not doses. In the end, I am not trying to convert you, I am just reacting to your football-fan mentality.

Last night, long beer-drinking session, I met a guy, sat in our table eventually, I already knew his faces from around and propably psych parties. This guy, a psych DJ, had had 500+ or 1000+ acid experiences, selling it, you know, the heavydoser guy, [also a couple other more exotic experiences like psilos and mescaline, but it was obvious he valued acid more, a nice guy overall [my friend later told me not so good things about him] but did he know lots of stuff about psychedelia? Fuck no.. He had only great exeprerience in taking the shit. Also opioids. He claimed not to have had a bad trip ever

I am currently at the point where my fear towards the classic psychs is almost vanished, and this is a great thing for me, as I will be able to navigate better next times. Contrary to many people, the heavy dosers, I have only had 15 or so experiences with the classic psychs and really different drug history from the majority of drug users..

They say real friends and good folks in general are happy with your happiness, success and sad in your pain and sadness. That's what I fucking call enlightened.

we all just like the banter around here sometimes...it keeps us warm and toasty in cold months...

are you nuts? it's fucking hot, I went swimming today

[t st tantra]

what do people want from psychedelic experiences, maybe something quite similar to what they might get from meditation etc?

both are programmable[within limits to be found experientially and experimentally,lol].

they work very well together.

your life,your inputs etc, program your experience.so a trip can be programed by prereading on a subject or by visual art or music etc.

cannabis is programmable so dont blame the erb blame the programmer or program?

t s t .

[PhoenixSon]

nice one tst

the real measuring stick is how has your life changed, manifesting in your actions. You know who you are

I think if psy's were used with trained therapists or say shamans, one would be able to get much more healing out of these things. Maybe what were lacking here in the west, although places like these help alot....

[mutant]

I wholeheartedly agree with the two last posts. So true

[woof woof woof]

My question: what kind of enlightment do people who cannot grasp the concept of individuality have received off psychs? Sounds more like a religion or a sect than enlightment in my eyes, sorry...

 

hahaha,........... reactions always good for a laugh. :-P

thruth is,... individuality only means not having let go of certain desires/conditioning or that you are having way too much fun.... and you should have fun of course.... so that I can understand completely... I am pro learing in a fun way... that is how all animals and people learn.... by playing around. Many roads lead to rome.

I like visuals too. they are absolutely amazing sometimes. but here is MY thing... I have learned and moved on.... when I meditate I remember what I saw during trips... and how it altered my perception..... and it helps with moving ahead in understanding what perception is.

so mutant... I do get what it is you want. hi hi hi.....

[drugo]

Passion or will break, open and create good and bad loops. Entheogens can support this when used wisely.

[Foton]

A very interesting thread! I'll have to give it a more thorough read and see if I can add anything to the discussion.. I do have this though, it was Leary and not McKenna who said, when in doubt, double the dose.

[Foton]

For your friend Mutant.

True there is some confusion and some kind of junction in his life, like something that has been postponed for years.

The object is not a recreational experience, but rather a strong mental , recalibrating, deep experience. He expects it to be party disturbing if it is to create an impression to help himself move the center of equilibrium in his life to another point afterwards [post-experience].

While I think psychedelic can give a perspective... for me they have never provided any sort of long-term source of energy. This must come from other things.

Personally I would not use drugs as a way to improve my life.

It may be much more useful for your friend to think creatively about life. What are some projects that would be fun ?

Is the cannabis use blocking some issue ?

Hehe, im playing back in my mind words from McKenna... seeing what he would have to say on the subject.

paraphrased mckenna quotes:

Psychedelics dissolve boundaries. A person who struggles to have boundaries in his life is the last candidate for the psychedelic experience. The later trips no longer become about the self. The earlier trips deal with personal issues.

[holymountain]

Psychedelics dissolve boundaries. A person who struggles to have boundaries in his life is the last candidate for the psychedelic experience. The later trips no longer become about the self. The earlier trips deal with personal issues.

 

agree. your first trips are very personally orientated. you clear the junk from your subconscious and get an overhaul of your mind. basically a spring cleaning of your life and whats been going on. very useful and helpful if you are looking for direction. again it's up to you to do the dirty work after your illumination. the plants won't do the work for you just point out what needs to be done.

if you stay on the path and follow the advice then you move past these sort of trips into more far out doors. not for everyone and not necessary. most people are content with what they have learnt on their first trips and see no need to push onwards or move to other paths such as meditation or yoga (both incredibly effective and mostly void of mantids)...

[mutant]

www>>

hihahahihi, cool definition of individuality, but I am not exactly in agreement with the notion that egoism/idividuality are man-made, conditioning, not necessarily anyways. It's because of individuality and egoism we are here, the 'ego gene' if you like. And now that we are here, so arrogant about who we are, we have to become friends with both ourselves, egos, indivualities and the others. And in this instant enters the arena of negotiations Miss. Spirituality, in whatever form, abstract or more tangible, making peace, patiences and love look worthwhile and worth persuing. That's my take so far, by no means final, for what it's worth..

Foton, thanks for comments.

My friend is an extremely motivated person. He jokes about his head calling it antideprassant, exactly due to the extra motivation he has, in comparison to the extreme lack of real motivation in the typical depressive person. He got the range of pot-abuser side-effects of course, but still, his motivations are quite high.

While I think psychedelic can give a perspective... for me they have never provided any sort of long-term source of energy. This must come from other things.

Is the cannabis use blocking some issue ?

for one, it's mildly blocking whatever can act as a source of energy/boost for him to become closer to the person he would like to be, be it the psychedelic afterglow, which still stands or whatever from real life like emotionality, being less misanthropist, being interested more in social shit etc.

The later trips no longer become about the self. The earlier trips deal with personal issues.

cool, but what if someone is still in his 'early' trips? What's the point in destining one's history with psychedelics, determining that 'that's the way it goes' beforehand?

******************************

fuck this fucking fucker part

*****************************

HolyMountain>>>

if you stay on the path and follow the advice then you move past these sort of trips into more far out doors. not for everyone and not necessary. most people are content with what they have learnt on their first trips and see no need to push onwards or move to other paths such as meditation or yoga

you're offtopic, again, and repeating yourself for 20th time. This topic is about how to use psychedelics beneficially for personal, conscious issues, breaking conditioning, improving oneself, personal insights, you know, this kind of thing, personal shit.

You have been trying to tell me all this time how I should take bigger doses etc etc and now you say big doses are not for everybody and they are not necessary either!!! How thew fuck do you know if I am someone compatible with bigger doses? or how do you know it's time for me to go higher, if at all?

You don't, you can't, because you don't even understand these states of higher doses yourself [your words], just have experienced them and believe in them, but, like every dogmatist in your ranks, you fail to present something solid - apart from some abstract visual show that may or may not have some meaning and symbolisation, that might or might not help you in your life.

Instead, you have dismissed and claimed you can't bother to write in this thread [both you and chiral] and still keep up coming and repeating the same old fucking shit even the neophytes know to parrot. Why don't you put your enlighted [read: delluded] statements in practice, instead of posting over and over with the same things, and not saying anything positive, let alone anything new, STOP POSTING HERE AS YOU PROMISED!!!

There is no place for McKenna's parrots in here, as there's no place for Chiral's arrogant posts on threads about mild highs, 'light-weight', extra sensitive users etc.

McKenna says it much better than you, ya know, you are just repeating over and over yourself and you haven't said something new for over ten posts - you don't really know anything more than me, you just believe in it more than me and maybe feel you have to know more than me since I haven't been to that 'other, alien, unearthly' place .... maybe you can't accept the fact that the conversation goes on, even if you enlighted super duper heroic dosers dismissed it? thing is, what do you know? What do you know about me man?

If you cannot offer something on topic, stop litering my thread with what you've repeated over and over. Stick with your own promises, don't bother with my 'ignorant bullshit', will ya?

******************************

**********************

PS: Message to all the fuckers that cared to vote negative for me because of this topic. I take pride on the fact, keep them coming, all you McKenna purists, parrots, psychedelic theists, believers, tryptamine chauvinists, whatever, give me more negative votes, I will be even happier with a couple more of them , feel even better about what I am saying. I eat dogmas for breakfast.

[Foton]

Hey Mutant... no need to throw shit around.

Let me try and pose some questions to keep the thread on track...

Are psychedelics a valuable tool for psychological growth / healing?

Are smaller or higher doses more practical for the above ?

What are the dangers of psychedelic use ?

cool, but what if someone is still in his 'early' trips? What's the point in destining one's history with psychedelics, determining that 'that's the way it goes' beforehand?

Here are my thoughts, I think people only have so much personal stuff to deal with... and when its delt with... it becomes something else... But I think there is always this other thing, in psychedelic use and with-out... astral brain tentacles =D

Perhaps reading LSD Psychotherapy by Stanislav Grof may be of help.

Im really thinking about my own experiences... Ive definately thrown my self into acid space with the intent of dealing with issues. Writing some questions down before tripping is useful, and then assess them the day after sort of thing.

I think lower doses would be more useful in my experience... Higher doses can induce this ego-death experience, which I imagine some people have put allot of "faith" into. Smaller doses dealing with the personal, and higher ones become more galactic... more far out. Here was my path, consisting of around 30 acid trips. Im really questioning my above quotes about not providing long term energy. I have had mystical experiences that have coloured my entire life.... but it really is how you deal with it, how you frame the experience. I read as much as I could and just threw myself into acid space continually, doing it too much at times I felt (multiple times a week). I think acid is great and has made my life better, improved my out-look, coloured all of life with this mystical, non-scientific, galactic, far-out world view... but at the same time... for dealing with my own issues, id lean toward other methods of growth, not drugs.

Trip because you want to trip... it may help with life but maybe not.

Good luck, much love, 20000 foot spirits look over your every move and love you =D.

I dont think any one here is trying to give you any shit.

Boom! Ohm nama Shivaya!

[drugo]

This paper may be of help. Just change the word addiction with "loop" and Bobs your uncle.

(It really takes off towards the end)

[Abstract] The amount of attention and resources that “addiction” receives in academic research contexts and applied social services, such as addiction treatment facilities, indicates large efforts at trying to understand and transform various types of human suffering. Couched in problematic early modernist ontologies, general notions of addiction – commonly reduced to drug-addiction – tend to distort fundamental aspects of human agency. By widening the gates of defining addiction it is shown that a continuum of potential suffering extends through all human enterprises. In contrast to current western orthodox addiction treatment facilities certain alternative shamanic-type treatment modalities offer sophisticated interventions for the suffering continuum.

................

~criticism is desired~

alex

addiction 15 may.pdf

addiction 15 may.pdf

addiction 15 may.pdf

[mutant]

Telepathogen>>

Hay man this quote you picked is really very interesting food for thought. The widening of the concept of addiction/loop/conditioning is pretty enlightening. Have to think /talk a bit about it

this quote

certain alternative shamanic-type treatment modalities offer sophisticated interventions for the suffering continuum.

is gold I know because my friend deeply experienced this after his woodeater psilos experience. Fuck he still feels this now despite all the erb use

Foton>>

Hey Mutant... no need to throw shit around.

I 'm cool man, I am not the guy to hold any mean mood towards anyone, if you read through all the threads in which this little battle between me and Chiral&HM takes place, you'll see I am getting lots of shit for just expressing,presenting a more rational, maybe conservative, sensible I call it, point of view and approach. Not better, just different, according to the person. Propably a

Your contribution to the thread is greatly appreciated. Great questions too

Are psychedelics a valuable tool for psychological growth / healing?

I say definately yes, and so much more, like, sacred and valuable for being able to inducing states of religious ecstacys, able to skyrocker artists inspiration, able to bring people closer to nature, and bare the potential to render them more open-minded. Maybe that's what some people might worship about them. They're gaia friendly for sure

Are smaller or higher doses more practical for the above ?

That's how I like the converstaions to unfold! Great point. Actually, I think Grof [not sure] was a 'fan' of

psychedelic therapy

approach, psychedelic here meaning one single very big dose, as opposed to reapeted spaced out monitored and more will and motivation driven sessions, called psycholytic therapy.

quoting wiki

Psycholytic therapy involves the use of low to medium doses of psychedelic drugs, repeatedly at intervals of 1–2 weeks. The therapist is present during the peak of the experience and at other times as required, to assist the patient in processing material that arises and to offer support when necessary. This general form of therapy was utilized mainly to treat patients with neurotic and psychosomatic disorders. The name, coined by Ronald A. Sandison, literally meaning "soul-dissolving", refers to the belief that the therapy can dissolve conflicts in the mind. Psycholytic therapy was historically an important approach to psychedelic psychotherapy in Europe, but it was also practiced in the United States by some psychotherapists including Betty Eisner.

An advantage of psychedelic drugs in exploring the unconscious is that a conscious sliver of the adult ego usually remains alert during the experience[12]. Throughout the session, patients remain intellectually alert and remember their experiences vividly.[13] In this highly introspective state, they also are actively cognizant of ego defenses such as projection, denial, and displacement as they react to themselves and their choices in the act of creating them.[14]

The ultimate goal of the therapy is to provide a safe, mutually compassionate context through which the profound and intense reliving of memories can be filtered through the principles of genuine psychotherapy.[citation needed] Aided by the deeply introspective state attained by the patient, the therapist assists him/her in developing a new life framework or personal philosophy that recognizes individual responsibility for change. An advantage of psychedelic drugs in exploring the unconscious is that a conscious sliver of the adult ego usually remains alert during the experience.[15]

[edit] Psychedelic therapy

Psychedelic therapy involves the use of very high doses of psychedelic drugs, with the aim of promoting transcendental, ecstatic, religious or mystical peak experiences. This approach differs strongly from the dialog-based processing of psychodynamic material upon which many other methodologies are based. As such, it is more closely aligned to transpersonal psychology than to traditional psychoanalysis. Psychedelic therapy is primarily practiced in North America. The psychedelic therapy method was initiated by Humphry Osmond and Abram Hoffer (with some influence from Al Hubbard) and replicated by Keith Ditman.[16]

So, I feel some people might respond better to one of the two method in general, always depends on the person, or either one or the other approach, depending on intended trip vision, goal, causation, in the same person. Obviously both psycholytic and psychedelic therapies as described above cannot happen in legal, psyhiatrical conditions [some exceptions exist were special licences have been given after years of legal battle], so we are talking about semi-legal or illegal experimental self-healing or self-enlightening sessions. This is very resemblant of a religion, a personal religion, din't you think? I also admit one would be more likely to be scared the big dose more VS the more conservative repeated session thing, especially whitough a trusted guidance... but there's also the thing where more normal doses might be also possible to produce loops in the trip [some suggest ingesting a bit more to exit from the loop], so maybe in a way, more difficult for some.

Finally I should point out my approach is more towards psycholytic thereapy, but not quite.

Exactly negative to what some people suggest going with big dose the first time so as to maximize the 'wow effect'[breakthrough doses, capable of inducing apocalypsies and ecstacys , these spaced out at 6 months intervals or more, exceptions sure accepted [like in this instance, my friend says he's repeating psilos as soon as 'it' matures, not going by the 6-month 'rule']. In this context, and as long as satisfactory familiarisation has occured, a bigger dose might be chosen, if thought, judged, important, interesting, useful or necessary.

So, I am not against big doses, just my instict tells me, if a breakthrough dose can do such things, what can 3 times that do? Or what 10 times that can do? I have read the thumbrpint thread in shroomery and it is indeed very interesting. In fact, 'crazy' heroic doses are miniature thumbprints and this is serious stuff. It sure need to totally submits to the substance specifically.

What are the dangers of psychedelic use ?

Interesting. You will see that this discussion is not very welcomed in ethno/pro psych use forums and communities. Coke, speed, alcohol are casually dismissed as demonic, self-destuctive etc etc, but the dangers of other drugs are not very deeply discussed.

The dangers of psychedelic is a huge matter. I consider my self an expert on the subject, lol, I have a whole paper in my head, probably gonna write it some time.

The dangers of psychedelics, as with dangers from other drugs, is closely related to mental illness, predisposition, drug-taking behaviours, escapism. All in all, you cannot talk about psychedelics seriously and not talk about mental illness. I agree psychedelics are relatively 'selfregulating' drugs, they certainly don't encourage abuse, compared to others, so in a way I agree with the notion that they're some of the safests drugs around. But, the trauma they can induce during a bad trip, probably capable of inducing a post traumatic disorder at worse, or preventing one from experimenting carelessly at best, is a serious enough reason to underline the danger, also the danger of inducing a psychotic break to a person with psychotic tendencies.

Of course these 'rules' also exist especially with speed, but also to a lesser but still importan degree mdma, coke and even cannabis, also other drugs.

This matter is difficult and tricky, because the very substances that can worsen or catalyze the appearance of mental disease, can actually help heal, some times with impressive results, some times even the same mental diseases!!! Of course, playing with psychs and psychosis, you're dancing with danger lot more.

By having these substances illegal they prevent us from using them properly. So each psychedelic enthousiast [and this is definately encouraged or at least tolerated in ethno communities] might think that Leary and McKenna or other messiahs were the coolest guys to immitate and parrot, while the darker aspects of psych use are more rarely discussed voluntarily. I was reading his outrageous chapters on alcohol in food the the gods and it actually makes sense. McKenna created a sect, a kind of religion and I realise I have not grasped the extent of the propaganda, but it's definately there, I can spot it better now. So McKenna says alcohol is the demon? Everyone following his revelations says the same. Fuck you, alcohol rules!

...it's propably McKenna first that brought up this football fan mentality in psychedelic communities. I don't think Leary was so specific. So maybe, psychedelic theism is not McKennas creation, but 'tryptamine chauvinism' is sure his invations.

I have a friend that really believed in psychs and now he is diagnosed psych/schizo, I might have said it again. He didn't see it coming and kept dosing, because he was already in the psychosis 'spell'.

Other dangers might have to do with difficulty to integrate what one experiences , especially if he is abusing. That's why I think that you can abuse other drugs, and stay pretty much the same guy, but you can't abuse psychs and stay unchanged. Only very hard, determined, and maybe pachydermatous [cool word, didn't know it exists, from the greek pachys=fat and derma=skin] can abuse these types of drugs and walk away with doing more and keep doing it. Maybe opioids help people abuse psychs without the psychological razors that they would normally produce in such quantities/frequencies. Who knows?

I only know that as a person, I am totelly different than that, and that my agression is actually a shield. I used and still use my rhetorics to navigate through this crazy world, but I am pretty sensitive guy I think.

Here are my thoughts, I think people only have so much personal stuff to deal with... and when its delt with... it becomes something else... But I think there is always this other thing, in psychedelic use and with-out... astral brain tentacles

it it... god? the other? the secrets of the god-module, the god circuit? what is it? btw, I am an atheist but I believe in religious experiences.

Trip because you want to trip... it may help with life but maybe not.

I tripped in my 20s . Now [30] I am calling it an experience, not trip. Same thing. I am having the experience becasue I want to have it. I am exploring myself and simultaneously exploring psychs. Another approach, pretty much done my own approach customisation, I think, trying to stay open though.

Other than that, you post is great and inspiring

Cheers and Peace!

Edited May 15, 2010 by mutant

[Foton]

Thanks for introducing me to the term Psycholytic therapy. Ill have to dig deeper into that... Ill have another read through Grof's LSD Psychotherapy too.

it it... god? the other? the secrets of the god-module, the god circuit? what is it? btw, I am an atheist but I believe in religious experiences.

Ya probably all thoes things... was think more along the lines of non-local information. The akashic field, the morphogenetic field.

Something for my intellect to wrap it self around for sure... hmm language... stuff if I know.

[Foton]

Oh interesting thoughts on McKenna too. Ill start a thread on him, please post in it.