Psychedelic to break a loop

[Chiral]

My friend isn't really interested in funky visuals normally, it's probably a personality thing, so rarely does he see or focus on these funky visuals that seem to be the #1 reason why people are so enthousiastic about psychedelics. So even though the experience was on the low end, there was an obvious blue glow,a tendency for the eye to explain shades of black and gray as bluish, propably that 'neon blue' people mention.

 

I should know better now than to get back into this, but can you please very briefly and without some coded form of slander about hard-heads, explain why you are not interested in visuals, and for the record can you tell us how many times in the past you have had a strong visual component to your trips...?

that'd be super thanks.

[mutant]

Thanks woof.

That's how I see it too, more or less. Psychs can give the opportunity to one to change something. It's not easy. Not guaranteed. You still have to do it on your own. Habit, conditioning, thought and excuse patterns are strong ...

Repeating to get there again, I see it only as a second attempt, since the first chance was lost or wasted. There's always something left for good, after every psych experience, but the real potential will fade fast, as you say, as you return to the 'loop'

meditation illiterate?! > just sit straight and focus on your breath. do this a few times a day. it's hard work. but with time,... just like training in a gym you develope.

hmmm. sounds not so interesting & I am pretty impatient guy!

I was reading some osho book some time ago and read something about meditation, I really liked the concept, especially as he put it, but I felt I cannot archive this , that is the person I am right now. But I kind of understood the 'importance' of it, and thought to myself I really need to try this sometime....

Chiral:

explain why you are not interested in visuals, and for the record can you tell us how many times in the past you have had a strong visual component to your trips...?

why I am not interested in visuals... well I suppose this is pretty important difference in my take, as it renders me quite an exception.... would love to hear you opinions on this one..

Most people who first use psychs do so as to see pretty stuff. Seeing weird pretty stuff is the norm about common thought's view of drug taking people, which has to do with escaping reality, being 'far out' there, 'ooooh man trippy', and the like, which is actually quite representative of drug culture reality. Lets face it most of us start like this, not really knowing much about approaches and shit. These are the persons that along with their first cannabis smokes they are looking at the cloud patterns and seeing stuff. "hey do you see this cowboy of there?" My friends were like that, well some of them.

So I don't know what it says about me, but I was not like that. Just the way I am, raised etc. I am cynic. Logic ruled my world as I was a radical atheist from 12 years old or so. I like pretty visuals in films I might watch stoned, but I never had that strong visual imagination. Maybe this last sentence is spot on. So, I was not taking drugs to escape reality neither cannabis nor my rarer early psych experiences ten+ years ago.

I was drinking alcohol in social situations and this helped me a lot with girls, as I was pretty shy as a youngster and this was actually the opposite of escapist mentality - I longed to bind with reality, and life life, not skip it.

So I didn't take interest in seeing funky patterns. They did surprise me pleasantly when they rarely happened, totally by themselves, though...

Other than that, I was not having them [lots of visuals] in practice anyways. And I was not trying to induce them also. People tripping will sit and play with their eyes to see what they will see and even close their eyes to induce CEVs. I was not like this, my trips were esoteric and apocalyptic from trip#1 which were lot more fascinating to me than trying to play with blinking lights to cause visuals? Why? Because thoughts and apocalypsis brought real issues back to me. Visuals , as I saw them, were meaningless and an uninteresting to me phenomenon, which for reasons I didn't seem to understand, didn't happen to me.

So never did I have an experience with bold visual character, not even the largest [probably] dose of acid I got in 2000, which resulted in a bad trip. This particular trip had NO visual character that I remember [but I was hearing voices alright ]. I always had some minor visuals and only on 2 occasions, both acid, my 1st trip and another one did I have some really bold visual moments...

Even though inexperienced visual-wise, the woodlovers my friend ate did bring a blueing visual.... this one also didn't capture my attention for long.

Note: no word for hardheads. so watch your tongue

[woof woof woof]

hehe Mutant my friend,.... you say impatience and it being not so interesting is a problem... well.... it took me at least 10 years to realize that it is not. ;-) Letting emotions settle can btw give a person that extra edge to deal with habits,.. throw some psychs in the mix and baaam!!

I strongly suggest calming the mind down.... that is when you begin to see and get a dominion over yourself. Calming your toughts down will eventually give you the same insights as psychs.

What helps is to find authors that you can connect with... otherwise it will come accross as boring for sure. Dont give up... takes time to assimilate / incorporate....

[Auntyjack]

I agree with WWW, also ask yourself, have you had enough yet...when you can truly answer yes and you stop forcing the storm will calm and the changes come from places never considered. Questions change and needed answers become redundant.

Well it did for me anyway....just a perspective.

AJ

[holymountain]

I was drinking alcohol in social situations and this helped me a lot with girls, as I was pretty shy as a youngster and this was actually the opposite of escapist mentality - I longed to bind with reality, and life life, not skip it.

i would class drinking as a more effective method of escaping reality than psychedelics. if you are shy, drinking helps you escape that fact and become someone that you normally aren't. psychedelics would most likely allow you to see the reasons behind your shyness and the factors that contribute to it and then allow you to reset those factors if you wish.

more fascinating to me than trying to play with blinking lights to cause visuals?

visuals , as I saw them, were meaningless and an uninteresting to me phenomenon,

i'm sure they were if blinking lights were needed. i'm not saying this to antagonise you or start another fire...just repeating if you aren't getting visuals don't blame it on the psychedelics or decide that it's because you are not interested in visuals...realise that it's because the doses are not enough to induce to visionary experiences thats all.

Edited May 6, 2010 by holymountain

[mutant]

woof /aunty

thanks for responses. I have definately not had enough [any drug, that is]. My last experience took me where I wanted and then some. Even if I feel my habits [hint hint] half-ruined what the real potential of the afterglow could be like 2 weeks after, the effect is not completely lost, calmness, less egoism, more patience, more loving attitude, that's what the effects on my personality were, probably because I already knew that I needed to change beforehand...

other than than I must surely give Osho some attention.

Holy:

i would class drinking as a more effective method of escaping reality than psychedelics. if you are shy, drinking helps you escape that fact and become someone that you normally aren't. psychedelics would most likely allow you to see the reasons behind your shyness and the factors that contribute to it and then allow you to reset those factors if you wish.

wouldn't this suggest how different we are rather than I'm wrong you're right? I am not so shy anymore, 15+years now, I never liked isolated escapist drinking, don't like it now still. I need/like to have people around when I drink, except when I am writting music, and also I like [company] when on amanitas, which strongly resemble some parts of alcohol inebriation. Anyways, this was when I was 13. I always took interest in mental issues, long before I was interested in psychoactives, cannabis etc. I know why I became a shy child, family, like always, I know it many years now, phobias are very easy to spot and analyze, even completely cure anywayzz. And all the years that came and insights just confirmed the initial points. But like I said, I usually drink is social occasions

if you are shy, drinking helps you escape that fact

hmmmm... not exactly escape, it's how you see drinking that makes it escapist or not...

drinking makes you not-so-shy, have enough and you're partying along with others, maybe even being the center of attention and not feeling embarassed at all. If this ain't dealing with the issue, breaking the conditioning, then what is? Living and socialising without shyness helps with the self-esteem and social behaviour. which in turns helps with complexes like this. An idle mind might see it as escape, but for me it certainly was not.. After I learnt how to behave, socially, and especially with girls, I realised I was not so shy anymore.

more fascinating to me than trying to play with blinking lights to cause visuals?

visuals , as I saw them, were meaningless and an uninteresting to me phenomenon,

i'm sure they were if blinking lights were needed. i'm not saying this to antagonise you or start another fire...just repeating if you aren't getting visuals don't blame it on the psychedelics or decide that it's because you are not interested in visuals...realise that it's because the doses are not enough to induce to visionary experiences thats all.

lol, you are very obsessed right? Get over your predisposed opinion about me and start listening mate, you're way too predisposed, that's why our conversations are not going anywhere, even if I try.

I didn't have blinking lights. The stars blinked and changed, lights had moving hallos and a bluish tone was seen, because of the mushroom. Pretty similar to strong argyreia trip, but with stronger visual department, plus the blue thing which was a novel visual element for me. I just don't find it that interesting unless it captures my attention. Geddit??

and anyways, I told you I am not that interested in visuals, so why propose way to see more of it. I know that I take more the visuals will be more intense, do you really think I am so uninformed?

This is NOT what I call enlightment. You sound somewhat preachy in regards with those matters...

[ThunderIdeal]

i dunno, i respect your position mutant, when i'm not spending half the day reading about it. i just can't help but think have a trip dude :D a big one

flickering light and bluish tinge

that aint tripping!

[ThunderIdeal]

okay it is tripping

i just wanted to be the millionth person to give you a blanket "more shrooms" response

[mutant]

Why is it everyone has something to say about the chosen dose of mine, but seldome dare to understand the arguements, let alone commenting on them??

PS: Okey didn't catch the irony without the additional comment

Edited May 7, 2010 by mutant

[holymountain]

meh.

Edited May 8, 2010 by holymountain

[ThunderIdeal]

why would you do that?

[woof woof woof]

If it must be a psychedelicacy,... I'd go with MDMA,....just from reading your first post reposted here below. Dealing with people is usually a very down to earth matter. You might rather want to talk to knowledgeable people. Psychiatrist or real loving friends. Drugs are for breaking conditioning. If you are going to break conditioning, be prepared focussed to know what it is that you want to work on. I chose MDMA because it helps focus the mind on self love and love for others. Leaving the people that you meet better then you have found them. I dont think you need a psychedelic.... you need a clear goal.... I do my best to focus on uncondtional love and understanding. And trust me that that is the same (synoymous to)as tough love. Recalibrating yourself (or that person)on who and what to give energy to and who not to give it too and for what reason... that is a good thing. The rule is simple.... you give what you get. So if you ignore the parts in yourself that you dont want to see anymore in yourself or in other people.... then you are making progress..... treat people like you want to be treated. I think that MDMA can be helpfull with this... because it makes you want to interact socially.... social interaction can be helpfull to grow spiritually from,... (leaving them better then you have found them) but be aware that you needto have the spiritual backing within yourself (like spiritual study or have great high self esteem friends in your life.) high self esteem people is what you want in your life. find those type of people.... perhaps even outside the psych scene.... or find a high self esteem GF if you dont have one.... I'd suggest one that maybe only smoked a joint once or twice in her life.... hahaha... if I say anymore its all bla bla bla -

A friend is thinking about having an experience with a classic psychedelic soon on.

There is a number of issues that somewhat trouble him, nothing stretchy or stressy, mostly of a restrospective character analysis nature and regarding relationships with other people. True there is some confusion and some kind of junction in his life, like something that has been postponed for years.

[PhoenixSon]

i second what www says about vipassana, i highly recomend it.

psy's are like compass's they point you in the right direction...

Vipassana gives you some feet to walk in the right direction.

and boring lol no not at all, its a purge, it is heavy and you will be occupied

Its cracked my head upon more effectivily than any psy.

good tucker aswell

I know its over in Greece if your intrested..... Dhamma.org

[Chiral]

Maybe psychs are not what is needed just now over in Greece, perhaps y'all need to knock up some meth, get all psychotic and crazy fired up, buy a gun and get out there and deal with your countries leaders in a swift and brutal manner...economic collapse is pending, if not and you seek the hippy way out, you could always liquidate all your current assets mutant into liquid..."liquid acid"...the new world currency...

dose's dose's, who wants dose's, we got dose's millions of dose's.

[FancyPants]

Holy:

wouldn't this suggest how different we are rather than I'm wrong you're right? I am not so shy anymore, 15+years now, I never liked isolated escapist drinking, don't like it now still. I need/like to have people around when I drink, except when I am writting music, and also I like [company] when on amanitas, which strongly resemble some parts of alcohol inebriation. Anyways, this was when I was 13. I always took interest in mental issues, long before I was interested in psychoactives, cannabis etc. I know why I became a shy child, family, like always, I know it many years now, phobias are very easy to spot and analyze, even completely cure anywayzz. And all the years that came and insights just confirmed the initial points. But like I said, I usually drink is social occasions

hmmmm... not exactly escape, it's how you see drinking that makes it escapist or not...

drinking makes you not-so-shy, have enough and you're partying along with others, maybe even being the center of attention and not feeling embarassed at all. If this ain't dealing with the issue, breaking the conditioning, then what is? Living and socialising without shyness helps with the self-esteem and social behaviour. which in turns helps with complexes like this. An idle mind might see it as escape, but for me it certainly was not.. After I learnt how to behave, socially, and especially with girls, I realised I was not so shy anymore.

i'm sure they were if blinking lights were needed. i'm not saying this to antagonise you or start another fire...just repeating if you aren't getting visuals don't blame it on the psychedelics or decide that it's because you are not interested in visuals...realise that it's because the doses are not enough to induce to visionary experiences thats all.

lol, you are very obsessed right? Get over your predisposed opinion about me and start listening mate, you're way too predisposed, that's why our conversations are not going anywhere, even if I try.

I didn't have blinking lights. The stars blinked and changed, lights had moving hallos and a bluish tone was seen, because of the mushroom. Pretty similar to strong argyreia trip, but with stronger visual department, plus the blue thing which was a novel visual element for me. I just don't find it that interesting unless it captures my attention. Geddit??

and anyways, I told you I am not that interested in visuals, so why propose way to see more of it. I know that I take more the visuals will be more intense, do you really think I am so uninformed?

This is NOT what I call enlightment. You sound somewhat preachy in regards with those matters...

 

I don't think HM is being preachy or obsessive. The title of your thread states wanting a psychedelic. Psychedelics typically induce visuals, thus if you're having a reasonable size dose of the psyche you want to help with your problems you're bound to end up with visuals. Not a decent enough dose, nada visuals, nada help from said psyche. You don't have to be interested in wanting the visuals but if you want a healing dose of psyches you're going to get them is what I'm trying to say.

Also you said yourself "drinking makes you not-so-shy" which is exactly what HM was saying. Alcohol pharmacologically makes you disinhibited, so it IS an escape from being shy in social situations. It's not called Dutch Courage for nothing. I've used it myself for years for the same reason.

[t st tantra]

some people just dont get much visuals.sometimes they can get them at very high doses otherwise it seems just vague bits of colour....so i've been told.and i've asked because for some reason i get the urge to 'help' them get visuals......a project of mine.

one fellow claimed he had no visuals because he was left handed.which brings us to r brain activation for visuals.

some of my best exp have been non visual,lots of energy awareness,chakras,very deep thinking and presences.

t s t .

[FancyPants]

^^^ Interesting! Particularly about the hemisphere activation. I tried not to blanket statement with finality though.

[holymountain]

nah.. i'm left handed. and visuals are a plentiful for me.

thanks for the help fancypants. everything i wanted to say but decided not to lest i come off as being preachy!

[Quill]

i know a fellow who claims trouble in acheiving visual asects of a psychedelic experience and attributes this to being caesarean born. Don't know if he is reading too much into one of Dr Strassman's theories but that's one theory of his anyway.

Changa worked for him though lol

[holymountain]

hate to quote mckenna again but this one has never failed to work. 'when in doubt: double the dose'. visions should be possible for everyone. particularly with shrooms (and changa, of course).

lots of research done on psychedelics and births...particularly by stanislav grof. he believes a lot of psychedelic visions can be linked to different stages of the birth process. not sure how i feel about it but can vouch for reliving certain parts of being in the womb or being born. anyone interested should check out 'the cosmic game' or 'the adventure of self discovery' by Dr. Grof. good reads.

[mutant]

WWW, the thought about MDMA is right, but I can't imagine working alone with MDMA. Also MDMA doesn't stick with you very long, as real psychs do.

Spacemonk, thanks for link and ideas

I don't think HM is being preachy or obsessive. The title of your thread states wanting a psychedelic. Psychedelics typically induce visuals, thus if you're having a reasonable size dose of the psyche you want to help with your problems you're bound to end up with visuals. Not a decent enough dose, nada visuals, nada help from said psyche. You don't have to be interested in wanting the visuals but if you want a healing dose of psyches you're going to get them is what I'm trying to say.

Fancy, my 'critique' to HM , was for the retrospective discussion in both threads and especially for the point when he starts shooting at me when I dared to make a comment on his dark sub experience.

Psychedelics typically induce visuals, sure, and people typically want them and obsess over them exactly because of that : visuals and their content, pretty colours, weird fucked-up, crazy shit!

BUT I am not your typical psychonaut, so I don't have lots of visuals, and this is never the reason I got interested in psychs, or why I kept on be interested in them !

So there you have the object of obsession, [not adressing to neither you fancy nor HM] if you need some, visuals, visions, most accurately visions which even though they're the product of a mind on some strong psychedelic, some people feel like the content of the visuals is some kind of 'voice of god' - and projecting this otherwise cool idea to someone - me- who just explained he is really not into it for visual content.

That thought about left hand / right-lobe rings something, but contrary to what you say tst.

I would expect left handed persons, or rather people with strong 'right lobe system' have more visual trips, sure. I do have a fucking supercharged left-lobe system for sure. It sure makes sense that the right-lobed people, that is people than are more emotional, more spontaneous, those that don't think a lot like me, would see stuff more naturally....

Not a decent enough dose, nada visuals, nada help from said psyche. You don't have to be interested in wanting the visuals but if you want a healing dose of psyches you're going to get them is what I'm trying to say.

NONSENSE!

there's no reason to believe that doses which induce visuals are spiritually or healing-wise superior to medium doses, especially taking into acount my own experiences and other educated opinions which I quoted in the other thread, quoting again:

I am quoting something from a sticky in the nook

http://www.thenook.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=1554

Using Psychedelics Wisely

Myron J. Stolaroff

A veteran researcher explains how psychedelics can be used to give

beneficial results. From GNOSIS, No. 26, Winter 1993*.

from "Dealing with the shadow" paragraph

The most infallible guide to Shadow material is our uncomfortable feelings. Many do not like to use low doses because these feelings come to the surface. Rather than experience them, they use larger doses to transcend them. But these uncomfortable feelings are precisely what we must resolve to free ourselves from the Shadow, gain strength and energy, and function more comfortably and competently in the world. By using smaller amounts and being willing to focus our full attention on whatever feelings arise and breathe through them, we find that these feelings eventually dissolve, often with fresh insight and understanding of our personal dynamics. The release of such material permits an expansion of awareness and energy. If we work persistently to clear away repressed areas, we can enter the same sublime states that are available with larger dosesâ€"with an important additional gain. Having resolved our uncomfortable feelings, we are in a much better position to maintain a high state of clarity and functioning in day-to-day life.

other than that, I am having minor visuals, almost every time, but they don't do it for me, dunno how else I can explain this..

Also you said yourself "drinking makes you not-so-shy" which is exactly what HM was saying. Alcohol pharmacologically makes you disinhibited, so it IS an escape from being shy in social situations. It's not called Dutch Courage for nothing. I've used it myself for years for the same reason.

I already argued on that. Drinking [socially] to fight shyness is indeed druggin yourself to fight shyness, in a way escape, but it is also a direct and active assault to shyness, and engagement in life and socialising, as opposed to withdrawing, become a pothead sociophobic with no social life or whatever. The results after 15+ years of social drinking are positive. How is it taking an axe and fighting with the enemy an escape? Shyness is also a fear. Alcohol helped me fight this fear. I am rarely shy anymore, and I find it funny nowadays when it happens

I can't see what the arguement is against my history of alcohol use and my shyness. Maybe you assume every shy person is the same with the others or that shy personalities are due to the same universal reasons? I get the impression alcohol didn't help you much. Care to elaborate?

Edited May 10, 2010 by mutant

[Chiral]

Mutant having strong visuals are a key indicator you actually have an active dose at the appropriate levels in your blood stream to cause the true effect of the known drug. No visuals means you haven't actually had a dose, rather a half dose or less, or the actual drug it's self is old and stale or non active.

You can bang on all day that you don't need visuals and that's fine, but do not confuse your friends non visual psychedelic experience, with what an actual psychedelic experience truly is.

When you see a GP and he says take 200 ml of such and such to fix the problem, if you go away and take only half, then you are not taking the correct dosage and you are only getting half benefits or quite possibly none at all, as a lot of drugs don't give the user an effect until a certain level is reached in the blood stream.

A typical and very well known effect that most here could relate to is, when you only take half an mdma tablet...you just never really get the effects, you get subtle effects and a fair amount of placebo, but take the whole pill and get a measured dose and you will be fucking wasted and properly dosed.

y'all wanna go on and on and on about how and which psych to break a loop, well you have been given the prescription here by nearly everyone and still you disobey doctors orders and go off and do what you want anyways, then you come back here and pull this "oh man I don't need visuals" as I'm not that sort of patient...seriously it's just you being arrogant or stubborn or both IMO...I dunno but it's very draining to have to go through this over and over and listen to your circular reasoning.

take a dose already.

[drugo]

having strong visuals are a key indicator you actually have an active dose at the appropriate levels in your blood stream to cause the true effect of the known drug. No visuals means you haven't actually had a dose, rather a half dose or less, or the actual drug it's self is old and stale or non active.

 

Not everyone is visionary inclined. Aldous Huxley certainly wasn't. Also, check sachahambi.

[GingaNinja]

I think there is a fair argument that the 'west' is very much driven and attracted to the visual experience while other cultures are not always that way inclined.

For the record at times ive had powerful visuals and got shit all from the experience while other times ive had only visual distortion stuff that seemed to be a major catalyst in my spiritual progression.

Ive also seen people eat more then double what everyone else had and not have any visuals at all while everyone else was meeting god.

there is no such things as a standard dose with psychs IMO

[holymountain]

Ive also seen people eat more then double what everyone else had and not have any visuals at all while everyone else was meeting god.

some people are just hard heads. but hard heads can still be cracked. there is no such thing as a standard dose from person to person. that is why you should always work your way upwards carefully. perhaps they might need to double that dose.

visuals are a very attractive element no doubt. one of the best ways to teach is through visual stimuli. many symbols, archetypes and all manner of complex information can be expressed visually and meaning gathered very quickly. a visionary state is quite a state to behold.

in the end though....

psychedelia is more than just visions. it's everything. all senses and all aspects of EVERYTHING. it's an all encompasing experience. to say that people are fascinated by visions is fair enough. but we're fascinated by the WHOLE THING. it's all worth getting excited about. to focus on just the visions is to miss many other important facets...but to disregard them as useless and uninteresting seems a bit of a waste and maybe a tad....wrong?

also, does anyone else here realise just how amazing a track 'are you experienced' by jimi hendrix is? holy shit. that man was tuned right in. it still sounds like it was recorded in the future.

Edited May 11, 2010 by holymountain