Ayahuasca and learning to die

[Pelinster]

Hi everyone,

I need some help with understanding something and I am hoping there are some people who are a lot more experienced than I in these things floating around here.

A friend of my friend of a friend has been using Changa and Ayahuasca for healing with a small group on a weekly basis for about 8 months now. Last weekend, under the impression that the Aya dose had been a dud - this friend and his mate smoked some Changa. This led to him dying. I don't know if anyone here has experienced this but the person involved didn't know how - why - anything really.. just knew they were dead.. It was the most awful feeling ever - like he had hold of 'it' and had lost 'it'. There was almost a presence in there that had a deceitful tone as in 'you fucked up - and now you've lost it.. game over'.. Obviously there were no words, this was so deep down the rabbit hole that there was Nothing from this world.. nothing.. it was as if the body had been completely unplugged from the other side and due to the signal going dead, He now knew he was dead - how or why was beyond understanding - and irrelevant because he was fucking dead! anyway - after an infinite amount of time.. hehe.. fuck.. obviously not because he sits here now.. There was the voice of someone saying 'It's <insert name> you are at <insert place> and everything is OK!' - this made no sense, but then he heard himself start calling out 'Help' in a panic over and over. The funny thing was from this reference point he had no idea what that sound was. It was just an idea, kind of attached to a feeling of 'please god, don't let me be dead forever', but this was a helpless plea because he knew.. HE KNEW.. he WAS dead.. Anyway as it all started to come back - reality that was - it became apparent that he wasn't actually dead! and it was so deceiving, so cruel.. so traumatising.. to think it would do that.. make someone think they were dead.. like some kind of fucked up joke.. The trauma very much outweighed the excitement of actually being alive..

Anyway the next weekend (yesterday) this friend went back in, only just with Changa this time to test the waters.. There was no turning away - never in the past has this person turned away when the experience had been painful.. Only what happened was he was instantly transferred back to that moment.. like he had never actually left that night last week.. and there it was again 'you fucked up! you lost 'it', you left your body and now I have taken it from you'.. not in those terms because there is no language - just a feeling.. it was as if I never actually left the week before, that the week that had passed was just a delusion.. He was trapped in purgatory - He had it all and had now lost it.. Once were endless opportunities and possibilities - now was an endless nothingness.. No idea of who he was, what he was, just the idea that he was something, and now he is nothing.. Luckily this experience didn't last quite as long (dont know how this works because time stops in the middle, but obviously doesn't stop because it continues, very strange, maybe it just becomes so slow it feels as if it has stopped) He started asking 'am I ok? is everything OK!!??' to the person who was with them who replied that everything was ok.. This made him laugh.. a twisted laugh.. what the fuck! he is thinking.. what the fuck is this!? why!? why do I keep dying! Is it a joke!?

Now he feels really disconnected and strange.. Not even sure if he IS alive? the death experience is more convincing than life itself..

The first experience was written off as a massive dose caused by the combination of aya and changa. The funny thing is the aya seemed to activate the instant the changa was smoked.. Perhaps smoked MAOI can influence the stomachs enzymes? .. but now that Changa on it's own has done it too, I am not so sure..

It feels like maybe he is connecting with his own death.. somewhere in time he will die, and that he is connecting with that moment.. or is he already dead.. He feels traumatised none the less..

In the past - the complete loss of self was a sought after experience.. there was no death.. there was no end of all opportunities - it felt more like infinite opportunities - He could become anything - anyone - from this infinite place.. Now it's become the opposite..

I am really hoping he can get past this.. In the past when he hit a repeating experience, it relates to something he had to figure out - to get to the next level.. so maybe no-one can help my friend.. I have heard the comment before in a doco that you use Aya to learn how to die.. Is this what he needs to do? Learn how to die?

He has never tried to influence the experience.. His mantra has always been 'show me..' - 'show me what it is I need to see..' .. I am wondering if he is being too passive? or is this what he needed to see?

Edited August 16, 2009 by Pelinster

[PD.]

I reckon you need to go back to the pilot and get them evil smoke blowing spirits out of your soul man! ;)

Im thinkin the base mite be the place to do it, down in the caves not at the summit.

[Pelinster]

Oh there's Caves there too!?? Awesome..

Haha, my friend is actually a little worried about where he brews now.. While he was 'gone', his body jumped up and ran away - I think because it thought he was burning in the fire, when he came back to reality - he was standing like 10 meters from where he had been unplugged.. He's lucky he didn't drop off the bloody edge!

Edited August 16, 2009 by Pelinster

[t st tantra]

time for some peas or lsas instead?

t s t .

[mu!]

yeh them tryptamines can get heavy as fuck. maybe something a little more grounding as tst tantra suggested to help heal some of the trauma

[Thelema]

that type of experience is pretty traumatic and can flood your serotonin receptors so much that you can feel depersonalized, de-souled for quite some time afterwards. Well, that's what it is like to die - the trick now is to be able to bring that state through the transition levels closer to you normal waking state. It's easy to forget, so regular reminders are essential until it becomes solidified.

IMHO, anyway.

regards,

[ballzac]

The message from DMT can be cryptic to say the least. It hasn't been of much help to me personally for that reason, although I know a lot of people get a HELL of a lot out of these experiences, so it is a very personal thing, and that can change for an individual over time too. I would agree with t st and mu on this, or perhaps you need a non-ethno based 'debriefing'. Whatever it is, it needs to be something that reminds you of why you are here. Personally for me, mushrooms were a great help because there are similarities to DMT and it allowed me to process some difficult experiences, rather than just forget about them. Wish I could be of more help.

Good luck with it all.

[t st tantra]

experiences with maoi involved seem more on the collective consciousness level.somewhat depersonalising generally.even just that lil bit in changa!

without the experience is more personal.....cid being the most personalising usually......the addition of heimia,imo,gives a personally integrative experience.....helps you accept your choice to be who you are ,where you are.....also said to have effects against drug induced psychosis and induces a stress free meditation like state.......

t s t .

[Pelinster]

Thanks so much for your advice guys.. It has been very helpful..

I am thinking my friend needs to go back in.. to be reminded so to speak.. because when he had the second experience he had definitely already forgotten, within a week, of just exactly how it felt.. he remembered the 'idea' but the actual sensation was lost.. However that sensation has definitely stuck after the second experience. I think he needs to steer clear of Changa (maybe too much Dimitri in his changa anyway, it's 50%) and just brew..

My friend lives in Brazil btw.

[inbetween]

Thanks so much for your advice guys.. It has been very helpful..

I am thinking my friend needs to go back in.. to be reminded so to speak.. because when he had the second experience he had definitely already forgotten, within a week, of just exactly how it felt.. he remembered the 'idea' but the actual sensation was lost.. However that sensation has definitely stuck after the second experience. I think he needs to steer clear of Changa (maybe too much Dimitri in his changa anyway, it's 50%) and just brew..

My friend lives in Brazil btw.

Hello,

I am new here, and jumping right in at the deep end.

Usually I am pretty good at this stuff!, but this one had me puzzled for a while....till I went walkabouts..

Nothing I say should be taken seriously, and all is abstract..things tend to get clearer as you dwell on them, and I have only dwelt on this 3 minutes....

Your mate was not dead, he was in the 'corridor' or 'waiting place'...of course there is no real corridor or waiting place, it is just a way to describe something undescribable. The place is between darkeness and light, and other places (which again are not really places, because they do not exist, yet are)... The voice was either another there (but there are no others because nothing is there, it does not exist, yet is) or his higher self talking to him. Most probably he will drop in there again when he dies for real, because it is connected, and he will know the place... and I am definately not saying he will stay there! He wanted to know what death was like, and he went to what I have just decided to call the 'confusion' place. There are many places...(though they do not exist). Anyone in that place is confused, what I would warn your friend about is that to move on from there is a great way to get lost from the body (life)... It is not unusual to decide to die, and then die. Animals and humans do it all the time, it is a moving on, into another dimesion. Meaning your friend's wish to know what it is like to die, was granted..

I've got a feeling (corny, I know) but I think your friend had an elder male relative that died years ago (possibly a great grandfather), who knew something about 'shifting'...anyways he was a quiet, wise man who went 'walkabouts too' and he was know to know about that kinda stuff. He has a nice laugh...Think he may be playing a part in this somewhere?

Anyhow's..I'm going right off on a deep one here, and I just wanted to say that your friend is being initiated, he is going along nicely and from what you have said 'he said', he is learning lots! I also feel that if he keeps going there it is going to get scarier, and scarier for him, because, you see, he does not really want to die...and will not be ready to move on..so exploring will become somewhat like a maze of dead-ends, and non-specifics, where all sorts of crap from life will appear clear as crystal...(maybe that is what is happening)...maybe he needs to clear out some stuff.....You know what I really think would be useful for your mate to know? You do not have to die to explore, concentrate on the energy, and go exploring that way...you do not even have to take drugs to do it...just zone into energy, and watch the world you knew get blown away, and be replaced by a whole new world that has always been here.. Then when dying for real, it will not be so strange and feel like you are in the 'confusion' place.

It's an amazing thing, this thing that we call life, or consciousness..

Sorry my first post is 'way off and out there'...lol I gotta laugh at myself at times!

Nice to join you all, nuff said!

inbetween

[mutant]

too much too often...

A friend of my friend of a friend has been using Changa and Ayahuasca for healing with a small group on a weekly basis for about 8 months now.

weekly, for 8 months, healing .... hmmmm ... people are greedy that's it...

[holymountain]

got to say i agree with mutant...

you said you were told you had lost it, you had blown it... maybe the message is not to dose so often, to chill out, to take a break and try and integrate what you have learnt. maybe the darkness and whatnot was the plants way of saying 'you get no more visions, you've had your fill'. i've heard stories of the elves telling people to stay away for a while and being 'locked' out of hyperspace. one person told me that they smoked changa weekly for some time and eventually were told that they were no longer welcome. repeated attempts left the person with no visions, no nothing.

i'd say take a break for a while, i'm sure you have a lot of thinking to do anyway after your experiences.

[ThunderIdeal]

nice to have you inbetween

this seems to happen a bit with dimitri? the same thing happened with onemind but might i say you've had a smoother reaction than he.

hard to comment on this phenomenon. what is being taught and why is it quite rare?

death is the great attractor really, if viewed as a destination then there is none more inescapable. of course we can only see what isn't hidden. on a philosophical level i'm pretty comfortable with the idea that death/destruction is divine and maybe offers a clearer picture of reality but whatever is hidden and whether it's found beyond death, i suspect everything is subjected to this abstraction on many levels. for instance, the death of the previous instant in time and the birth of the current. even in this example though we only know the past instant has become dead and reborn TO US, we know not it's true fate. if the universe continues expanding and we can't exceed light speed, than parts and times in the universe are already dead to us. they're beyond our foreseeable ability to observe or interact with; we know not their true fate.

there are tricks of obfuscation and they're not just around us, we disappear into them personally! i love it.

[Legba]

i think that these medicines work in a way that requires the cessation of the personality. it has to die or stand aside for the essense of the medicine to reach the levels within us that they do their best work.

but personality holds on like superglue. it gets scared. makes up whatever it can to maintain its hold, its power over us. trust in the medicine can help to persevere and overcome the barriers that personality put in the way.

the nature of this medicine is quite different from anything modern medicine can comprehend and its unfortunate that more reserach isnt being done to utilize this most special gift.

perhaps going slower or going harder with the med's will werk??? ask the plants

good to see u bacc here Pelsterness

[G*P]

Obviously there were no words, this was so deep down the rabbit hole that there was Nothing from this world.. nothing..

There was nothing.

There is nothing.

Yep:)

A day (or hour) in the life of the psychonaut.

There is.. 'no self' isn't there, my friend?

Laugh at it and keep laughing. The horrible truth.

[Pelinster]

Thanks Inbetween.. That was a pretty cool post and I am assuming you may be a lot more experienced than myself in these things and your advice is very much appreciated..

As far as being greedy? Ok, I find that a strange comment.. Considering I get nearly nothing one would desire on a greedy level out of these experiences. Is the awakening of self and the subsequent development of awareness that follows something we desire through greed?

Due to the nature of a long dark past - I have a lot of shit going on, but I do feel over the last 8 months that I have reduced the essence of my problems down to one last little box - and I am not even sure I want to crack this one - because I exploit its tension and conduct the energy into positive things.. Mind you - every now and then I slip and conduct that energy into something destructive - and usually that is in a period of time when I have stopped meditating and my friend has stopped working with the entheogens. Rarely do I get any desirable feelings out of these experiences whilst they are occurring.. and I often fear them more than anything else in the world - only I know it has to be done - that even if it is terrifying - it's all me in there, and I have to be able to live with myself.. the benefit comes afterward, when I am driving to work and I can see everything.. the trees on the sides of the road - the strange sensation of objects appearing to move faster as they buzz out of the corners of my peripheral vision - and then when I get to work this perspective enables me to achieve amazing things.

Anyway, thanks again for all of your comments.. I am definitely a lot more comfortable with, my friend's experience now, especially since Inbetween's comments. This description of that place definitely fits with my understanding of such - as I had wondered that if one is still consciously aware - mustn't they still exist within time - within this world/dimension somehow.. A halfway zone makes a lot of sense to me..

[Pelinster]

There was nothing.

There is nothing.

Yep:)

A day (or hour) in the life of the psychonaut.

There is.. 'no self' isn't there, my friend?

Laugh at it and keep laughing. The horrible truth.

It's so weird man.. because part of me isn't sure I do even exist!!?? How strange is that.. it's a feeling.. in some way or another - I don't actually exist and I can feel it.. existence itself all of a sudden feels fragile - like none of this is real - and I am in some kind of dream - and if I fuck around too much - I'll wake up and realise I am actually dead!! haha.. oh dear.. the mind bends and boggles and.. yeah.. all that..

If one thing is certain - the world doesn't seem anywhere near as 'static' as it used to.. I feel like there are millions of different possibilities linked to millions of different universes and anything is possible.. anything.. maybe in another dimension - I also exist and am dead.. maybe I have died every time I thought I had a near miss, only the universe course corrected my consciousness into a dimension where it didn't actually happen? because what else could it do? I can't very well not exist - if we are from the infinite - which I believe very much so we are even if it is just in opposite to all that is finite - then if I have existed once - I will always exist.. in what form I have no idea - and never will other than the present form if lucky enough to be self aware.. but of course, in one sense, in this world - I must die eventually.. it is certain.. unless the story unfolds in some twisted way where I become a test subject for some new anti-aging medicine and become immortal.. then I would be convinced of my multiple-dimensional course correcting theory..

So if in your universe I turn out to be dead.. just remember, in my universe I am still alive, posting on SAB, and will live forever!! :S

Edited August 19, 2009 by Pelinster

[t st tantra]

because what else could it do? I can't very well not exist - if we are from the infinite - which I believe very much so we are even if it is just in opposite to all that is finite - then if I have existed once - I will always exist.. in what form I have no idea

right on!......imho

t s t .

[eexpee]

After a FOAF had an intense acid trip, he felt quite similar, like he was dreaming and that reality was fragile and that he could very well not exist anymore, almost like his awareness was in another dimension looking in through a screen or something. It took a little while for him to integrate himself back in to what we call 'reality' but that feeling of looking in, or not being here kind of stayed. He has concluded it is something to do with the limited ability we have to see this world, because we only have 2 eyes, and it almost seems 'fake' to see the world in this way. You have just become aware of how you are just an experience. That everything we experience is just that.

This feeling has caused many panic attacks in this person, mostly while thinking about it under the influence of cannabis. In medical terms this feeling is what 'they' call 'depersonalisation', a phenomenon where you feel disconnected from yourself. Apart from what I have just said, I am not sure I can say much else, if it has helped at all. Bringing it back up makes him question it even more, he has no answer, it seems empty to think we are just an experience.

XP

[rahli]

One of the greatest insights DMT will ever share with you is knowing when its time to pull up and intergrate.

She whispers these insights for those that care to listen . If you don't care to listen she'll kick you in the face and don't those self regulating machine elves kick hard!!!

[oface]

Wow. Definitely identify with a lot of stuff in here.

Sorry for not adding anything constructive .

*returns to his stupid assignment*

[folias]

A lot of the work one can do in these spaces relates to "collective consciousness"/"the oversoul"... whatever you call it...

Western society is very individuated and not used to being subject to "data" not directly manifested by the personality... but, yet, there are different levels of interconnectiveness which can be profoundly disturbing/liberating... and quite specific.

The whole "lost it/blown it" thing still comes up for "me"... and if you look at the world... and have some semblance of empathy... it is in an incredible amount of suffering, even just at the physical level. And through gross inequitious negligence, blind wronghedeadness, it sometimes seems already to be too late to go anywhere down a path which only amplifies the warning signals into full scale collective panic attack - with issues such as environmental pollution, global warming, overpopulation and so on just amplifying day by day.

But its important not to blinded by appearances... and understand how consciousness manifests itself... is very strange and not really so understandable to us.

I tend to be quite hopeful.

Julian.

[Pelinster]

After a FOAF had an intense acid trip, he felt quite similar, like he was dreaming and that reality was fragile and that he could very well not exist anymore, almost like his awareness was in another dimension looking in through a screen or something. It took a little while for him to integrate himself back in to what we call 'reality' but that feeling of looking in, or not being here kind of stayed. He has concluded it is something to do with the limited ability we have to see this world, because we only have 2 eyes, and it almost seems 'fake' to see the world in this way. You have just become aware of how you are just an experience. That everything we experience is just that.

This feeling has caused many panic attacks in this person, mostly while thinking about it under the influence of cannabis. In medical terms this feeling is what 'they' call 'depersonalisation', a phenomenon where you feel disconnected from yourself. Apart from what I have just said, I am not sure I can say much else, if it has helped at all. Bringing it back up makes him question it even more, he has no answer, it seems empty to think we are just an experience.

XP

Just an experience.. man you sent shivers down my spine with this post.. you have hit the nail on the head in some way.. not sure what that means though haha.. Perhaps at some stage we were deluded enough to think we were anything more than just an experience? Although as shallow as that seems - to be just an experience, what more can we be? It definitely feels even more shallow out there without my body, and a connection to this world.. I hope you don't have to wait too long in there, when you die - before you are connected to another 'reality'.. actually I imagine you wouldn't have to wait any amount of 'time' - unless time itself, from our reference point, is more than something from this world.. perhaps we ARE time - actually, now that I think about it - there is a good basis for this.. Whenever I think about these things, I definitely start to go somewhere.. I feel a connection to that moment and shivers through my very soul.. Like through this realisation I also have the power to wipe my own existence.. The window looking in thing is definitely something I can relate to at times.. I think about how our body is like a computer - it processes all of this data, but who sits at the computer - where does this data go? The eyes collect light, this information is then processed by the brain, but what receives this information? I imagine my body being plugged in.. like into the matrix.. only it's the other way around, I am on the other side - of what I have no idea - and I am plugged in to to the body. With my body and all of the data it sends me - I have 'it'.. the ultimate.. an experience in a dimension full of others like me.. that I can interact with.. I even have self awareness! but, without my body, I am just the empty experience.. A window looking into NOTHING! (and therefore everything?)..

[eexpee]

After reflecting on the experience thing, I have sort of found a peace in it. As part of the western culture we have been conditioned to think we are separate and individual. Traditional teachings tell us of how we are all connected and one with everything else. I don't quite know how to explain this, but anyway; we are an experience, but we are all part of the same experience. Remove our bodies and we are in Zen, Nirvana, because there is no longer an individual receiver, but the experience of universal consciousness. Our mind is so conditioned to being one thing, the ego, that when an experience of being not one separate thing, but one part of a whole thing it tries to interperate that experience to something within itself. For one that has not quite come to terms with the distinction between the ego and the universal it can be quite scary, this is what I think may have happened in your case. That 'place' you went to was no place IMO, but 'THE place' of existence. For something to exist, there needs to be nothing there first. So you went to that place of nothing; no-thing.

This is all what I think, I don't think anyone can offer an answer to your experience. There will be no definitive answer to this, it's as simple as that. The more you try and find one the more it will bring pain and confusion. It's about being given the privilege to experience such an experience as a human, something not many are able to do, and acknowledge the experience for what it is. It is not meant to be understood, not now anyway. Life now is not understood, but we accept it as the place we are in now. Try not to dwell on it to much, just take it for what it is. Maybe the feeling of not being in your body comes from the experience of knowing we are not truly our bodies. To much distance from this reality can take us away from this reality in a way that is not good and persists after the experience. But we are here now for a reason, so we must also experience this reality for what it is. IMO aya every week could be doing something to bring you away from your existing reality to much. This fear and confusion is a sign maybe it needs to slow down. Come back to it when you can sort through the experience more, otherwise it could leave you feeling very hollow, which is not what it is meant to do.

Good luck. I hope my input has helped you.

- Also t s t. you said something about heimia being used in conjunction with cid. In what dosages is it recommended and what method ie. smoking or as a tea? Does it also have a similar effect when used with mushrooms, LSA or DMT? Does it also need to have an MAOI with it? Plase explain further.

XP

[mu!]

wow, a lot of similar experiences being shared here similar to my own. its good to know there are others out there who've experienced that 'place', whether good or bad. buddhism provides a good framework of understanding but i think it only goes so far. maybe a teacher/master is needed for that