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mutant

Black rot & Trichocerei

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This is in regards with what is generally called black rot. I don't remember having seen or read any real treatment for this, I rather remember reading that it's kind of a mystery and that there's no real cure for it. I should be adding a photo or two later today...

Now, I have 2 certain clones, a bridgesii and a backeberger pachanoi , they're both black rot positive- they both came from the same US vendor and all new clones I made from them also developed this. I noticed that the this black rot thing is revealed/activated when cuts/pups are taken. This behaviour has led me into believing that if this is a fungi that lives inside these cacti, and they come out/reveal when the cactus is hurt/cut, maybe because it knows it's time to find another host ... because it sure seems to understand when the plant is cut from its roots...

So

1) These are the only cacti that have the rot, do my other cacti risk contamination?

2) Is there any cure?? Or I should live with them and / or find others without black rot?

3) I suppose that these positive to black rot clones would be less valued commercially, sold as ornamentals or for graftin purposes, what do you think? I also fear that a scion grafted on a black rot positive clones might be in danger or infected or the joint point / graft might be at risk? What do you think?

I am really willing to read about what you people think about this stuff...

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This is in regards with what is generally called black rot. I don't remember having seen or read any real treatment for this, I rather remember reading that it's kind of a mystery and that there's no real cure for it. I should be adding a photo or two later today...

Now, I have 2 certain clones, a bridgesii and a backeberger pachanoi , they're both black rot positive- they both came from the same US vendor and all new clones I made from them also developed this. I noticed that the this black rot thing is revealed/activated when cuts/pups are taken. This behaviour has led me into believing that if this is a fungi that lives inside these cacti, and they come out/reveal when the cactus is hurt/cut, maybe because it knows it's time to find another host ... because it sure seems to understand when the plant is cut from its roots...

So

1) These are the only cacti that have the rot, do my other cacti risk contamination?

No rot as far as I am aware is not contagious...it is purely because the plant has been under too much humidity/wet conditions...cactus are an arid loving plant...rain and lots of it is the cactus's enemy...airflow or lack thereof can also be a contributing factor.

2) Is there any cure?? Or I should live with them and / or find others without black rot?

Usually if you move them to a drier location it will heal its self and possibly leave a light tan scar but the point is to get it out of the over moist conditions so it can dry out...cactus skin never needs water only the roots ever need water....if the rot is really bad you can do surgery and cut it off or out ...turn the cactus into logs of cuttings without the rotted parts maybe...just be more vigilant and pay attention to the weather...get in sync with the weather patterns and make an effort to move em if it's gunna piss down all over em for weeks.

3) I suppose that these positive to black rot clones would be less valued commercially, sold as ornamentals or for graftin purposes, what do you think? I also fear that a scion grafted on a black rot positive clones might be in danger or infected or the joint point / graft might be at risk? What do you think?

not really...most Bridgesii are rot prone from my observations but that does not make them any less valuable or made into ornamentals...Bridgesii rock sox IMO....rot comes from over watering the surface of the skin of the cactus....some are better at resistance than others is all...there is no conspiracy of rot prone cactus being sold ....keep the skins dry... and if you know that the weatherman has just told you via the tube that you are in for 2 weeks solid rain and you don't move your cactus to a drier spot to avoid all that moisture then it's you're own fault IMO.

H.

I am really willing to read about what you people think about this stuff...

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Well, thanks alot for the input, but I suspect there's more to it than just this... I might as well be perfectly wrong though...

I have noticed all scarring was not a matter of overwatering or the skin being watered, but they scarred when cuts were taken, when stressed....

Take a look at this small pup [too early taken off, I know, I was inexperienced than] taken from a PC pachanoi - the black rot has occured when cuts were taken

DSCN3363.jpg

same thing happened each time a cut [very bigger than this small one] was taken!

Edited by mutant

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one time while absolutely plastered and watering plants. i had a knife. i saw some tbms that were sprouting roots adn also had black spots. so i cut them open to see what was inside and saw roots or some kind of growth growing out from the vasc. bundle. i got this idea that maybe it could be due to something changing under the skin, like the beginning of root buds, and these black spots come in.

again drunken hypothesis, which later i have cut open black spot trichs and didnt see anything with the naked eye like roots...but maybe its a cell change that is more susceptible to _______

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No one has THE answer to this problem, there are always exceptions. Cuttings and new seasons growth are more susceptible IME and sometimes it really does "seem" as though some plants are carriers.

All I can say is:

-humidity bad.

-stressed, unhealthy cacti bad.

-overhead watering bad.

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thanks again.

noone still has phrase some opinion on the 'theory' that this is INSIDE the plant, it lives in the clone regardless if we see it and if it comes out, the certain clone. any feedback??

Which species of Trich does this occur? Any list? Which other cereoid cacti?

PS: Kada, IMO drunken hypothesis works miracles if you got the right brain :) - Your observations are great too! I too have noticed something that was root like but also looked a lot like black rot in one of the aforementioned bridgesii clones I got.. I had forgotten about it, I will check and update...

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Hi Mutant! I dont think you should be worried that it spreads because its not that infective! Some clones are just very vulnerable to it! I suppose its the same as with people who are more likely to get some specific fungal infections all the time because of genetical prepositions. I know some particular Echinopsis Cultivars that are known to have Black Rot all the time! And some bridgesiis.

Not sure about the Inside theory. The inside should actually be pretty fungus-less if you think about the human body and how infections are working their way through the skin into the body and down to the bones. A cutting is the perfect enviroment for infections. I´d assume that the scar is the entry point for pathogens that are everywhere around us. Normally they dont hurt because the skin keeps them from getting inside the organism! Cutting opens doors. bye Eg

Edited by Evil Genius

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Naw def. don't worry about that, happens all the time.

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So it's final that it is an ouside thing? And why is it that only these two clones are infected all the time? [well, it seems blackrot likes trichocerei!!!!]

I am not really worried, I am just not so convinced that it heals... I feel it stays inside.... dunno why this idea has stuck in my mind ... maybe a coincidence? Maybe I am just being telepathic again?? :P

Still, wouldn't some black-rot resistant PC pachanois have more commercial value than some like mine, with obvious susceptibility ??

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Why worry about it if there's nothing you can do about it?

Let see, I have tricho's growing in full sun that have developed black rot. It's on the surface. I've seen it on TBM, regular bridgesii & san pedro. And no, they weren't over watered.

The absolute worst mistake you can make is trying to cut it off, as all that will accomplish is stunting your plant back until it regrows.

Offhand, I dont think any Tricho has 'commercial value'.

Maybe from a collectors standpoint, but then who will put their entire tricho collection in a clean room environment just to prevent them from possibly developing black rot.

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You should experiment Mutant. Get another PC san pedro from an outside source, one that's rot free and see what happens. If it gets it, it's more likely something to do with your environment. If it doesn't, well the carrier explanation might hold some water.

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I don't have it on any pachanoi, only on bridgesii.

The bridge I have with it are all seedlings grown myself from seed, and it has never been in my collection until the seedlings came along.

It doesn't seem to spread.

It always occurs on stressed plants.

So I firmly believe that it's a genetic thing that the plants show when stressed.

  • Like 1

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glad to see some feedback on my 'theory'

zelly i am not worrying I am just trying to figure out what is this thing. and what's its life circle

bit, interesting theory... your data are in accordance with mine... I got it in bridgesii and pc pachanoi that came from the same vendor and it occurs with stressing. The cuttings had already scars, I later understood it was this black rot thing, so it had been infected by it long before I received it.....

maybe it has something to do with the fact that certain clones have been around for a lot of time? Wouldn't that make them susceptible to some things? Maybe some fungus went along with this unchanged , easy to penetrate clone???

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Also, on how to 'cure' it -

- Repot to a bigger pot with fresh (good) soil

- Keep plant quite dry until it scabs over and loses the 'black' appearance (should become a brown scar).

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thanks again.

noone still has phrase some opinion on the 'theory' that this is INSIDE the plant, it lives in the clone regardless if we see it and if it comes out, the certain clone. any feedback??

Which species of Trich does this occur? Any list? Which other cereoid cacti?

PS: Kada, IMO drunken hypothesis works miracles if you got the right brain :) - Your observations are great too! I too have noticed something that was root like but also looked a lot like black rot in one of the aforementioned bridgesii clones I got.. I had forgotten about it, I will check and update...

mutant, good to see somebody taking a new angle on this problem. from what i vaguely remember about the lifecycle of plant pathogen fungi, there are two options. anybody feel free to correct me.

1. it lives in the cactus and the black rot occurs when it surfaces to fruit. seems very unlikely.

2. it lives in the cactus and the black rot is direct damage from it feeding.

i don't recall if any pathogenic fungi actually feed on the plant from the outside. if they appear to live on the outside, that would be their tiny fruiting bodies. if a plant is not injured, then when a spore lands on it the spore has to tunnel through it's skin, so a couple of factors that influence infection rates are the thickness of cell walls and epidermis, and the moisture level of the spores environment. if the spore lands on a wet cactus with thin skin, it may survive while it burrows in, on a dry cactus with low humidity it is more likely to perish on the outside.

as to your theory that black rot moves around in the cactus, all i can say is that the vascular pathways in a cactus are not convoluted like an ordinary plant! anywhere the juices flow is 100% feeding area for the black rot, and the distance from one extremity to the other is practically a straight line.

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of course it may survive in the soil and penetrate the root system, in which case it's definitely moving inside the plant. i'm inclined to believe it lands on the surface, probably at night time when it's dewy since we all avoid watering the tops. the undeniable truth is that having vulnerable cacti around means there will be additional spores floating around.

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some of mine is definitely inside the cactii,in the green area just under the skin.rot forms with skin covering then bursts......its all healing ok though with no treatment....even a rotting tip on the 'black rot' bridgessii from sab sorted itself out and it is the worst offender i've seen,i believe sab dont even stock it anymore because it was so extreme,pity cos its a useful plant with reasonable growth habits.looks like most bridgesii to me ,just usually has scabby patches.

t s t .

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1. it lives in the cactus and the black rot occurs when it surfaces to fruit. seems very unlikely.

actually this is what I have thought to explain black rot behaviour theory... I don't think it's so unlikely....

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we often get it on our tallest cacti, so I don't think it is spread in soil. I don't even think it is spread by water droplets. It is either systemic or spread by wind or spread by insects from what I can gather. It definitely prefers to attack growth that is no older than 2 years, with 6-12 months old tissue being the favourite. Although rotting meristem tips are also common in some strains/species, in particular the peruvianus forms.

While humid and damp conditions seem to promote it, the worst outbreaks we have had have been during our hottest time of year which is late spring to early summer, nov-dec. At this time it rarely happens during a wet phase, but usually during an intensely hot and dry one. So either it starts development during the wet phase and then blooms in the dry phase [a few days later], or it is simply the dry harsh conditions that trigger it.

It is certainly not just caused by wetness alone as we have almost no problems during our VERY wet late summers.

We have given up on trialling fungicides and are now experimenting with various macro and micronutrients to see if this helps. Calcium supplements certainly seemed to help when we tried them a few years ago

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ehm, "systemic" ??

= enclosed ?

thanks a lot anyways, cool too hear your thoughts on this

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It is unsightly stuff, though seems harmless...

I don't know that "rot" is really the right term for it actually - the tissue underneath, after it scabs up, is totally fine - it's more like an infectious pus type thing, but not "rot" like that actually consumes the plant... Consuming scabbed over sections that had the stuff produce no ill effects either...

I don't think the wet conditions cause it - for me it always happens when I take cuttings - especially on the bridgesii - all get the black bubbles, and I live in a low humidity climate... Eileen gets it too, though I heard it said that she is rot-resistant - not black rot resistant however if that is what those people meant... I have a couple other bridgesii though which are much worse than the Eileen clone about it...

What is interesting is that it starts as bubbles under the skin - those bubbles, when sliced open, contain clear and healthy looking juice or something like it, which then becomes black as it emerges to the surface...

Edited by nitrogen

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What would be really interesting is to find people who, f.e. have some bridges that get it and some others that don't.

F.e. for example, me kk339 doesn't have it - yet, hopefully never.. yet my pc pachanoi does. maybe I should try to infect a cut of kk339 to see if it gets it??? :P

[thoughts thoughts thoughs...]

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Well this collective info/experience/theories is very very helpful to make more assumptions!

bit:

I don't have it on any pachanoi, only on bridgesii.

The bridge I have with it are all seedlings grown myself from seed, and it has never been in my collection until the seedlings came along.

It doesn't seem to spread.

It always occurs on stressed plants.

So I firmly believe that it's a genetic thing that the plants show when stressed.

Well, I was starting to believe that this report is rendering my theory invalid, but hey, I thought, not yet!!

I will first state my pre-updated theory first:

*This fucker lives inside certain clones. Once they have it, it won't go away, unless Torsten finds a way to cure - but I doubt it [by systemic you meant enclosed???]

*Extensive cloning of a certain plant might lead to certain weaknesses of the plant as in being susceptible to attacks etc. I cannot explain this more, but it makes sense in evolutionary terms. Plus, microorganisms might be able to evolve real fast so they might develop certain mechanism so as to make a certain 'weak' clone their 'home'. We can understand that certain Trichocerei cacti, have been heavily cloned for obvious reasons for ages. And the only ones I have seen positive are the trichocerei people would consider desireable...

I recently got another interesting clone... some pach X scop or something...it too developed a bit black rot... So I was starting to think whether the black rot thing might have something to do with the alkaloids some trichocerei produce. So I wanted to ask here if people's FOAFs or anyone know of a potent clone that doesn't have it [there propably is, but, you know, crazy idea!]. Another thing that occured to me is that maybe, just maybe, blackrotted trichocerei are indeed more potent than some that are black rot free. That is loosely based on the fact that stressed cacti supposedly produces a more desired material and black rot sure stresses the plant, but seldom or never kills it... But I have no real experience, these are only assumptions...

This makes me also wonder whether some heavily cloned species from South America develop black rot among tribes that value it or if it also occurs in big old plants in habitat... For this we would need some experts or south american native opinions. Where is Smith or Trout when you need them ?? :)

I have said it elsewhere, but I have not ingested any cactus - my interests are not necessarily linked with ingestions, as I said I am interested in the ornamental value of cereoid cacti - and Trichocerei [like any cereoids] are beauties in my eyes. I mean, I also have globular and slowgrowing cacti, but my love are cereeoids.. anyways, the beer is working and I am starting to ramble...

ThunderIdeal:

as to your theory that black rot moves around in the cactus, all i can say is that the vascular pathways in a cactus are not convoluted like an ordinary plant! anywhere the juices flow is 100% feeding area for the black rot, and the distance from one extremity to the other is practically a straight line.

Who says black rot fucker needs the vascular pathways to move? or who says it hasn't developed its ways so it moves through the vascular pathways but has developed a way to bring itself to surface and fruit?? And now that I think of it, I have personal contact with some fungi experts, I might try and send tham some sample. We might find if it's like a fungi at all....

So

and we reach the point where bit attempts to demolish my theory by saying he has some bridgesii he grew from seed which developed the black fucker. Shit! But very interesting indeed... So... you have black-rot free bridgesiis I suppose. Noone caught the fucker ?? And... where did the blackrot-suspect seed some from?? Anyways... A black rot positive clone might also flower and might also pass the fucker in the seed. So it's not incompatible [my theroy + bits facts] after all... And if it's really a symbiotic/parasitic mechanism, we can call it a thriumph on the part of the rot!

Another [last & pretty wild] assumption. Someone said the calloused scars are not bad for health if ingested... I now wonder [since there is strong evidence this black rot occurs in alkaloid containing species], and hey, this is an even greater idea [though it's still wild hypothesis - the beer is definately working - what's wrong with this guys who don't like alcohol after all?] that the fungi is after the alkaloids - that is - the black rot 'eats' the alkaloids !??! It would sure make sense in an evolutionary sense!

It always makes the fuss in the surface [and a bit below, haven't really studied it so far, how deep is the damage]

I am still puzzled most of you say it isn't infectious. Even so, the supposed mechanism I described makes for a decent survival mechanism.. a fucker that depends on people's tendency to cut & clone to propagate and multiply / plus an occasional seeding!

I would love to have people list the species that develop the black rot syndrome in their experience... and any feedback, theories, disagreements anything, for that matter!

Edited by mutant

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I looked into this subject some time ago and followed it up in a thread somewhere along with some good comments made by Rev.

From memory the contagion can indeed attach its self to growing seed and then move on.

I believe we also found out the name of the likely culprit. don't have time to search for it now though.

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You mean this??

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/inde...mp;hl=black+rot

Cool addition to the discussion... Funnily enough I noticed some tiny marks that resemble the black fucker in one of my year old bridgesii from seed... [!!] ... bit?

It seems from that discussion in the link that it does spread though.... through the thinner parts skin..

Plus EDs post in that thread seems totally out of place...

Here's another thread here

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/inde...aded&start=

OK, this seems not as harmless as all claim, it seems to be able to spread, and some people seem to have serious trouble from it, other than looks...

We all seem to agree in just few things:

*that when it's present or it reveals it self or fruits, it's better to leave the plant as dry as possible, humidity rather helps it

*that noone knows how to get rid of it, and that nooone seems to really worry about it

I also see that

*Bridgesiis seem more susceptible to it

*seed grown plants can get it [through the seed / through the air?]

*it can spread [yes/no?]

fuck I understand why people don't bother researching it more ... I still find it funny that it hits exclusively alkaloid rich trichos ... Do people have a list of trichocereus that can get it??

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