Amanita Muscaria preparations

[mutant]

There are some reports around that seem very reliable, and as you said there's not reason to doubt the facts in the first place as common knowledge from the old times. If you want I might try and find some of them...

I remember having read that people got to know this recycling property of amanitas observing reindeer who seemed to go after another reindeers urine especially if they had consumed amanitas, but me too haven't read about a man drinking reindeer urine.

[entropymancer]

I've got to bump this thread to ask:

Has anyone actually had a decent experience from these with native Australian Amanita muscaria mushrooms? It seems like virtually every report I read with Australian mushrooms only describes the physical side-effects that come from other trace chemicals in the mushroom (the sweating, the nausea, etc.) and very little of the primary effects of muscimol/ibotenic acid. I get the impression that Australian material is virtually unusable, and was wondering if anyone has experience that disagrees with this?

As to the urine-recycling issue, it can produce a better experience if you've got mushrooms that have a heavy load of side-effects, as the chemicals that cause these are metabolized, and don't pass unchanged in the urine as ibotenic acid does. But it should be noted that muscimol (which is roughly 8 times more potent than ibotenic acid) only makes it into the urine in small quantities; the ratio of muscimol to ibotenic acid is naturally higher in the mushroom than in the excreted urine (and if the mushrooms are dried in sunlight, it's even higher than that!) So if you've got good clean mushrooms that don't give a heavy load of sweating, you're better off redosing with more mushrooms than you are drinking your own urine. As someone said earlier in this thread, the urine was drunk by the poor who couldn't afford the mushrooms.

As poo says, the reindeer-urine connection seems to stem partially from the fact that reindeer drink human urine (regardless of the presence of muscimol). They are also well-known for eat the mushrooms when they find them growing in the wild. These two facts (and the familiarity that some indigenous tribes had with their reindeer herds) almost certainly combined in some fashion to contribute to the discovery that the urine is psychoactive; the precise connection can only be guessed at. After all, there is no tradition of drinking the urine after ingesting psilocybin mushrooms, even though unmetablised psilocin is taken up into the urine by the kidneys (as ibotenic acid is with the fly agaric), nor is there any tradition of ravers recycling their urine to get the most out of their rolls (though MDMA is likewise excreted in the urine).

Personally, I love the fly agaric. And I prefer it fresh. Back when they were in season (I'm in the northwestern US) I would cook a slice of cap into most of my meals. I still use them when they're not in season; I pickled a couple jars and laid in a stock of dried material, but I really wish I'd pickled more. The flavor just goes to hell when they're dried IME, and they aren't any qualitatively better in terms of the experience.

[Neoshaman]

Torsten has basically explained your query what it comes down to is Australians in general lack knowledge of Preparation techniques , maybe they have a higher ibotenic acid content if grown here as this is what usually causes the negative side effects

The best prep is to brake it down through heat treatments from my understanding the consuming the dried producrt this can usually be achieved at about 90 degrees celcius which is roughly 200 degrees in the american temperature scale hope that clarifys a few things for you

I believe they should only be picked once the caps have turned

basically a lot of the negative reports are due to people playing with things they haven't reaserched properly

[MindExpansion]

A way of storing seems to be by boiling them down to a reduced mush, filter, get liquid out of mush, and freeze liquid.

Peace

[Neoshaman]

A way of storing seems to be by boiling them down to a reduced mush, filter, get liquid out of mush, and freeze liquid.

Peace

can you freeze the dried mushroom or does that just screw the whole heat conversion process

[mac]

I know there may not be answers to some of these questions but ill put em out there anyhow

How long dose the solution keep if not frozen ?

A friend contacted me & sent me some pics of his find, He asked me to look up some info (as he dont have internetz & that WWW. stuff) Anyhow he brewed up some tea with fresh caps simmered & brought to boil 4X over 20 min Wednesday night early hrs Thursday morning, (its now Friday)

He had a very small dose with no effects or nausea, he noted it tasted fairly unpleasant

I was told it was 1 slightly smaller than a margarine container & another smaller cap with stems removed,

He also said he still has the rest of the tea & may consume it tonight but i did not ask how he had stored it or how much was left

The info i gave him was to look for the medium sized ones with no signs of degradation or too much weathering (as positive id is fairly easy & older larger or weathered ones may not be as potent ?) , I should speak with him tonight so will give him any info i have learned here in this thread as to reduce any unpleasant experiences or risks involved (harm reduction)

A few things questions he had id like to confirm if i could

*oven drying temps 85-90 degrees C with the door slightly cracked & if any juice comes out to sort of baste them in their own juice

This is a bit of a dumb question ya can tell i dont use the oven much (maximum temp on his oven & mine is 250, i take it that is in degrees C because his nor my oven say if its in C or F ? )

*Is there a suggested dosage for fresh caps boiled or is it best to oven dry first to be sure you have converted all goodness

Is the dosage of Aussie Amanita muscaria much the same as the Erowid dosage chart >>

Light 1 - 5 g (1 medium cap)

Common 5 - 10 g (1 - 3 medium caps)

Strong 10 - 30 g (2 - 6 medium caps)

The dosage has been variously recommended as "one to four caps", "one or two mushrooms", and "30 grams of dried caps" for A. muscaria. A cap, of course, can vary in size from a half-inch sphere to an eight-inch platter

Im sure next time i speak with him ill have more questions, but that will do for now ill keep researching as much as possible & pass on what i learn

Edited June 19, 2009 by mac

[Neoshaman]

*oven drying temps 85-90 degrees C with the door slightly cracked & if any juice comes out to sort of baste them in their own juice

This is a bit of a dumb question ya can tell i dont use the oven much (maximum temp on his oven & mine is 250, i take it that is in degrees C because his nor my oven say if its in C or F ? ) yes that is degrees celcius It would be close to going to 400 if Farenheit

*Is there a suggested dosage for fresh caps boiled or is it best to oven dry first to be sure you have converted all goodness....................... only if you like nausea and vomitting i hear

Is the dosage of Aussie Amanita muscaria much the same as the Erowid dosage chart >>

FOAF says Yes it is although can be very variable 5g i hear is good starting point

Im sure next time i speak with him ill have more questions, but that will do for now ill keep researching as much as possible & pass on what i learn

 

[MindExpansion]

*Is there a suggested dosage for fresh caps boiled or is it best to oven dry first to be sure you have converted all goodness....................... only if you like nausea and vomitting i hear

Have heard fresh caps boiled furiously until a thick liquid remained then filtering and freezing resulted in no nausea when the ice cube was consumed.

Peace

[Chiral]

can you freeze the dried mushroom or does that just screw the whole heat conversion process

Once these mushrooms are totally dried they will keep for a very long time in an air tight container...I once stored some completely dried caps for a couple of years with no degradation at all...when I finally went to use them I had lost the jar...I think someone stole the jar after one of the many parties in my squat at the time...

Air dried is the go for long term storage...oven dried for immediate use is good too...I'm no fan of freezing liquids and thawing out...but can work as a way to store liquid I spose....but if you are going to boil up the cap why not just use it right there and then...no need to freeze it ...just store dried caps instead without cooking them.

I'm still yet to try this fungi...it keeps eluding me...damn slugs crawled all over the last ones I saw drying....yuk.

H.

[MindExpansion]

Few reasons to make liquid: standardise dose between a number of doses worth of fruits, less conspicuous storage for some things, easy to dose both convenience wise and taste wise compared to some dry fruits and more compressed storage so less space wasted.

Peace

[entropymancer]

Torsten has basically explained your query what it comes down to is Australians in general lack knowledge of Preparation techniques , maybe they have a higher ibotenic acid content if grown here as this is what usually causes the negative side effects

That doesn't make any sense. At all.

In the rest of the world, specific preparation methods are completely unimportant. You can eat them fresh out of the ground. You can sautee them in an omelette. You can make a tea out of the fresh mushroom. You can air-dry them, sun-dry them, or dry them in an oven. And it basically doesn't make the slightest bit of difference how you prepare them (well, sun-drying will make them somewhat more potent, but still qualitatively very much the same).

So I don't buy the argument that Australians don't know how to prepare them right. With the fly agarics I eat, there is no one right way to prepare them; pretty much anything goes.

Also, it sounds like you believe ibotenic acid to be responsible for the physical side-effects. It's not. It produces the same spectrum of essentially positive effects that muscimol does, it's just less potent. The negative side-effects are caused by other trace chemicals (such as muscarine, stizobolic acid, and stizobolinic acid).

Also most of the methods touted in this thread as way to decarboxylate ibotenic acid to muscimol simply don't work to accomplish this. Drying the mushrooms on low in the oven will not accomplish this. Boiling or sauteeing will not accomplish this. The ibotenic acid is primarily broken down to muscimol by certain UV wavelengths that occur naturally in sunlight, so sun-drying them will increase the muscimol content somewhat... but it certainly won't eliminate all the ibotenic acid, nor should the ibotenic acid be looked upon as something that is necessary to eliminate.

[immanuel]

great thread! i've always been in the dark about preparing muscaria, but have seen a few around. this info will come in handy sometime im sure.

[Chiral]

That doesn't make any sense. At all.

In the rest of the world, specific preparation methods are completely unimportant. You can eat them fresh out of the ground. You can sautee them in an omelette. You can make a tea out of the fresh mushroom. You can air-dry them, sun-dry them, or dry them in an oven. And it basically doesn't make the slightest bit of difference how you prepare them (well, sun-drying will make them somewhat more potent, but still qualitatively very much the same).

So I don't buy the argument that Australians don't know how to prepare them right. With the fly agarics I eat, there is no one right way to prepare them; pretty much anything goes.

Also, it sounds like you believe ibotenic acid to be responsible for the physical side-effects. It's not. It produces the same spectrum of essentially positive effects that muscimol does, it's just less potent. The negative side-effects are caused by other trace chemicals (such as muscarine, stizobolic acid, and stizobolinic acid).

Also most of the methods touted in this thread as way to decarboxylate ibotenic acid to muscimol simply don't work to accomplish this. Drying the mushrooms on low in the oven will not accomplish this. Boiling or sauteeing will not accomplish this. The ibotenic acid is primarily broken down to muscimol by certain UV wavelengths that occur naturally in sunlight, so sun-drying them will increase the muscimol content somewhat... but it certainly won't eliminate all the ibotenic acid, nor should the ibotenic acid be looked upon as something that is necessary to eliminate.

Great contribution there and welcome to SAB Trim...if I may call you that for short...yeah oven dried and sun dried are the two that I heard give the greatest response...interesting about the natural sun dried way...thanks heaps for that info...

H.

[El Presidente Hillbillios]

Just thought i should add some info with my experience with this mushroom when i lived in the UK.

I had been given some dried fly, chopped into small chunks. Being young and stupid with no real idea of what to do with them i ate prolly about a 1/4 to 1/2oz of the dried mushrooms. What followed was very bad, i spent about the next 24hrs vomiting and sweating. I thought i had been poisoned and was going to die. I also did not trip as far as i could tell, admittingly if it was only a mild trip i would have not noticed it due to how sick i was.

The mushrooms did look like the aminitas that i have seen here, however it could be possible that they were identified incorrectly. But they were a branded dried product from the local head shop so i would assume that they were id'd correctly.

Maybe there is a difference between mushroom to mushroom, i mean in at each stage of development or maybe growing conditions. In germany i have seen the same mushrooms used as decoration on top of bread so surely they cannot be making anyone sick when used like that.

I think we must be lacking some knowledge somewere not necessarily due to any difference between Aussie Aminitas and European ones as it was european ones that made me sick.

Welcome to the forum Trim, do you have any more info on collecting, preparation and dosages? We must be missing something somewhere.

[t st tantra]

i was told 8dried grams was the low active dose but cannot confirm.made as a tea and strained,the liquid [only ] consumed.

t s t .

[mac]

A interesting theory about the UV light doing the conversion I have not heard that before

one way to test the theory would be to air dry under a artificial UV Reptile Light , Germicidal Light used in ponds & aquariums or Tanning Bed lamp etc... ?

i wonder if anyone has access to a UV lamp & is game enough to test it out ?

This is what i have come up with from researching the basics

Muscimol is the product of the decarboxylation or drying of ibotenic acid and it is thought that muscimol is as much as ten times more potent than ibotenic acid

Many carboxylic acids can be decarboxylated with heating. Usually the acid is suspended in a high boiling-point liquid in which the acid is insoluble/immiscible. Examples include mineral oil and glycerol, depending on the acid's polarity. After a certain temperature is reached, the carboxyl group will be removed from the acid to form the decarboxylation product and CO2. Simpler acids are not as willing to undergo decarboxylation in this manner.[3]

So my question to the people who know about this sort of thing Is Ibotenic acid a carboxylic acid ? , my assumption is yes because of the many heat cure methods you see

Edited June 21, 2009 by mac

[mutant]

Entropy, good contribution, a couple of disagreements

Eating fresh amanitas is not the same as eating potent prepared ones, fresh eaten raw are more toxic + less potent. That is because ibotenic acid is not just much less potent than muscimole [albeit active in more or less the same style] but also more toxic too [nausea]

Now, if someone feels that his material produces too much saliva and stuff, that's propably traces of muscarine, that's the reason IMO that some amanitas produce more sideffects, but I have seen this in lots of american reports too. Never experienced this myself, nor raw material [of course!]

Also drying the shit is the same if not better and less messy than making and storing liquid / icecubes. All advantages are still there, and boy, I always say that if someone doesn't like these mushrooms flavour + aroma, then they must not like mushrooms in general either... Anyway this is really not important, I really don't understand people's bitching about flavours of drugs, especially herbals or fungi.

i was told 8dried grams was the low active dose but cannot confirm.made as a tea and strained,the liquid [only ] consumed.

8gr sound ok for a low to mid euphoric experience. but I don't really suggest going there from the first attempt - 3~7 gr can also produce an effect from a slight, almost unnoticed tonic and mood lift effect to a euphoric session with mild stimulation followed by a nice sedation.

A interesting theory about the UV light doing the conversion I have not heard that before

one way to test the theory would be to air dry under a UV Reptile Light or Germicidal Light used in ponds & aquariums, Tanning Bed ?

i wonder if anyone has access to a UV lamp & is game enough to test it out ?

This post has been edited by mac: Today, 09:46 PM

Amanita pantherina material that was rendered more active through sun exposition at day and UV exposition at nights for a couple of days produced relatively strong mid experience in the euphoric range at less than 2 gr. [~1,8gr] Other pantherina material which was NOT so intensely prepared [not with UV light anyway] produced similar or milder results at apr. 3 gr. This might be due to the prep or the mushroom variability. But hey, don't search in the straws - sun drying is the way - sun produces the UV signals so you need not bother with a lamp.

There is only one way to be sure about amanitas

*Try to get/pick good material that produces no salivation [no muscarine, not even traces] - GET A LOT of material

*Be patient, take it easy and slow, homogenise and experiment

THEN come to tell us what is was like.

I have been experimenting with these shit for 4 years to be able to say what I say about them, that I feel compatible and secure to give amanita tea to people. It slightly gets into my nerves when people wanna know it all in one day, and learn the 'secret dosing scheme' that renders amanitas into a wonder drug!

Sure, people might have explored them thoroughly in much less than I did, but I always suggest amanitas are not for the hasty - mostly because even though mid-dose experiences are not so impressive for many, but high doses can scare the shit out of the unprepared... + the sideeffects which I personally haven't ever

experienced....

PS: edited for typos

Edited June 23, 2009 by mutant

[paradox]

So my question to the people who know about this sort of thing Is Ibotenic acid a carboxylic acid ? , my assumption is yes because of the many heat cure methods you see

well i'm no chemist but seeing as the process by which ibotenic acid is converted to muscimol is called de-carboxylation, then that implies that yes it must have a carboxyl group which can be split off, so i'd assume that means it's a carboxylic acid

edit: oh & mutant your knowledge on amanitas is indispensable i recently read that greece is pretty scarce in terms of fungi diversity, but A. muscaria is one of the few species which is highly abundant

Edited June 21, 2009 by Paradox

[mac]

yeah that's what i assumed as well but as it said Simpler acids are not as willing to undergo decarboxylation in this manner. i thought there may be a connection to the UV light theory

so yes the method of oven drying & boiling will do the job but i wonder dose uv exposure help convert more of the Ibotenic acid due to exposure to uv light or just the slow cure resulting in less nausea

A few experiments are in order next time i chat with my friend ill pass on some more info & see what he comes up with

[entropymancer]

Entropy, good contribution, a couple of disagreements

Eating fresh amanitas is not the same as eating potent prepared ones, fresh eaten raw are more toxic + less potent. That is because ibotenic acid is not just much less potent than muscimole [albeit active in more or less the same style] but also more toxic too [nausea]

Do you have a source for that claim (that ibotenic acid is more toxic)? I don't have experience with the purified compounds, but I have experimented with both fresh and dried materials, and I personally prefer the fresh mushroom, very lightly sauteed in butter. I find the dried material (from the same mushrooms) to be more nauseating than when fresh (this could be a flavor thing... the fly agaric is about the most delicious mushroom I've ever eaten when fresh, but takes on a musty flavor like the smell of old gym socks when dried).

Amanita pantherina material that was rendered more active through sun exposition at day and UV exposition at nights for a couple of days produced relatively strong mid experience in the euphoric range at less than 2 gr. [~1,8gr] Other pantherina material which was so intensely prepared [not with UV light anyway] produced similar or milder results at apr. 3 gr. This might be due to the prep or the mushroom variability. But hey, don't search in the straws - sun drying is the way - sun produces the UV signals so you need not bother with a lamp.

It turns out I was mis-remembering about UV light encouraging the converison of ibotenic acid to muscimol (or if I wasn't, I can't seem to turn up any references to back it up). However, I did find that UV light encourages the decomposition of ibotenic acid to muscazone. The pharmacology of muscazone is unknown, but considering the increase in potency that comes from sun-drying (in both your experience and mine), I'd strongly speculate that it's either notably active, or potentiates the other active compounds effectively.

Reference:

Toennies, JP. 1967. Angewandte Chemie International Edition in English 6(10): 887-888

UV irradiation of aqueous solutions of ibotenic acid (I) from toadstools leads in 35 % yield to muscazone

Edited June 22, 2009 by entropymancer

[t st tantra]

i think for this conversation fresh should mean uncooked.......sauteing is still applying heat?

but i had 2 fresh uncooked ones on bread as a sandwich....it was very nice but i never repeated it cos it was almost all amnesia......diamond light patterns everywhere,feel sleepy,lie down,have fantastic vivid dreams i cant remember,wake up feeling good....

t s t .

Edited June 22, 2009 by t st tantra

[G*P]

Great thread- some very good first hand info.

Here's some more.

Amanita is the most sacred, pure and god-like allie I have entered into relationship with. Its true spirit will not visit everyone-in my experience, hardly anyone. Reverence, and respect- and earnest desire for knowledge is key

I have used oven dried Amanita powder as a tonic on a weekly basis for over 2 years. It is an amazing flavour enhancer, mimicking msg- and is delicious in its own right if prepared properly.

Yes, Aussie Amanita can provide incredible shamanic experience. I broke through on 20+ dry grams, simmered for 20 mins at 170deg f. No urine required.

My patch called me.. daily for 2 years.. until i finally walked down his strange track, to find them frutin in full majikal glory amongst a grove of oak trees. I will guarantee that they have a different make up from symbiote to pine, than with other trees- different effects, different 'spirit' etc.

Somashaman says: Amanita is always spiritually best when consumed fresh. TRUE!.... BUT, simmer for 20mins first- and don't eat it raw. I've eaten small ones raw, and its not really what any of us are after.

Eating Amanita with milk, dairy or yoghurt makes for far more comfortable trip!

Cooking into fudge is also great, if ur specimens taste foul. wash down with plenty of milk. Number1 mostpleasant method for large amounts is to cook powder into cheesy omellete. Complements of dudenj from the shroomery.

I freeze the most beautiful specimens whole in brandy, and 1 largish shroom, simmered for 20 mins= 10+ hours of euphoric trip.

I leave maggoty and b grade specimens to meditate upon, as i spend time and picnic in my patch.

I take other clean+sun dried specimens for my reserve of magickal trippng powder to dry and use in cooking etc.

p.s a great tek from the shroomery is to snooze for an hour when u feel sleepy- set ur alarm, and then wake up to begin tripping with the afternoon sun. Its claimed to b a very important part ofthe spiritual alchemy. like butterfly emerging from cocoon-

To me, Amanita is about beginnings and ends.. and therefore 're-birth'. It is the source of human language, and magick itself. Amanita and mankinds evolution are inextricable.

from Mutant:

"Sure, people might have explored them thoroughly in much less than I did, but I always suggest amanitas are not for the hasty - mostly because even though mid-dose experiences are not so impressive for many, but high doses can scare the shit out of the unprepared... + the sideeffects which I personally haven't ever experienced.... "

Hello, fellow brother of Soma!

On 20grams, I had multidimensional blackouts-blinking in between this reality and others. I had full deleriant effects on first large dose- falling over.. quite dangerous! I now only crawl about on Amanita trips.. blurry eyes next day.. and (some) moderate nausea which gives way to eophoria. Never the saliva though, nor the sweating.

Edited June 23, 2009 by G*P

[mutant]

Re:entropymancer

Well it is a known that ibotenic acid might have a neurotoxicity on humans, but for muscimole we know its only harmful to the liver. But I can't find direct ref right now that it does produce more sideeffects like nausea... I suppose I have made this up myself [?] from the many reports I read of people raw material~ which usually causes more vomiting and sickness... [?] there is also wide anecdotal and traditional evidence that proper preparation [aka full convertion] renders the drink not nauseating at all, maybe a heavy stomach at most... [?]

Ibotenic acid is a powerful neurotoxin that is used as a "brain-lesioning agent" and has shown to be highly neurotoxic when "injected directly into the brains of mice and rats."[1]

wiki, a.o.

Check out some interestin thread on e-dot

it's an interesting thought that muscazone might play some role. I had wondered about this myself in the past..... it's got a nice name, huh?

hey. G*P, cheers. I have to admit that me too at my last encounter, which was my first breakthrough dose I felt some slight nausea for a little while, then it went away as I got more into the experience. [note: I had just eaten prior to ingestion, a lot, roast meat and such - I had to]

at 15~18 gr I had a number of visions over some 5 hours, but at times I could dictate the vision. I was afraid my sleepy sitter would fall asleep and I might step into the fireplace sleepwalking or something, but soon after my sitter reassured me he would not fall asleep and I became more familiar with the space, I felt fine and quite sure. Still, I strongly believe sitter are necessary at these doses, but I am also sure there are stronger and lighter breakthrough doses. Mine was relatively milder [or should the large meal played such a big role?] - I am saying that because my visions were many and vivid but lasted few minutes [?5~20min?] each time, instead of having deep long visions ~ also because I had much control over the visions and the state was not extremely overwhelming.

Anyways, this last one has been the most rewarding experience and even though the mushroom likes me, and I had figured this out couple of years ago, I still don't over indulge, actually I haven't been there since that last time... Am I being too conservtive? Naah, I think that by doing what feels right and waiting for the right time I can actually generate better experiences and build a steadyier relationship with Amanitas.

Re:paradox

edit: oh & mutant your knowledge on amanitas is indispensable smile.gif i recently read that greece is pretty scarce in terms of fungi diversity, but A. muscaria is one of the few species which is highly abundant

this is not quite right, the truth is that fungal populations of greece is only recently being studied and recorded - maybe that's why 'we' seem low in numbers now. Actually I think that we might have one of the richest fungal flora, at least in europe, in proportion to the country's area, like we have a large density of green flora, the largest one in europe by far [shitty thing is that we've fucked up our nature quite nastily, but that's another story]

Maybe we should wait a couple of years and hopefully we might be still here discussion all these. The reason for this is that we have lots of types of habitats in a small area. We got lots of different weathers too, from rather dry to rather wet. And yeah, we got lots of Amanitas, muscarias and pantherinas are common all over greece, but there are some delicious Amanitas too, I pick some of them myself for table.

PS: hey, G*P, don't quote somashamans, it's bad for yr reputation ;) they're not the real thing mate ;)

Edited June 26, 2009 by mutant

[G*P]

^^^Nah, I realise they're total flogs! lol. Sorry on that one ;)

However, I do think there is a special magic to the fresh shroom.. like they 'proclaim' and they just keep so well - still seem alive after freezing in brandy. The ice crystals they form are especially pretty also.

Personally, I find that Amanita affects a different sphere of my visual activity. As if it makes my 'imagination space' have visions rather than my actual eyes.

A couple heavy Amanita trips per year is all that I can handle. I just don't like the crook tummy.

[mutant]

Cool then