said by their supplier to be san pedros

[trucha]

http://www.largelyaccurateinformationmedia...vian_cacti.html

[strangebrew]

Haageocereus acranthus maybe?

Some nice cuttings there though to be sure.

[M S Smith]

You think that's weird, look what is being sold in the Witches Market in Peru (presumably Chiclayo).

What genus is this?

~Michael~

[Evil Genius]

Hi Michael! I saw them on the Pics from the Sacred Succulents 2008 Peru Trip but i dont know what it is! Ben might be able to tell you though! If you find out, please let me know! I want to have one! bye Eg

[hebrew]

yes very interesting cactus isnt it. would love to know what it is as well. the link trucha posted as well has some beautiful cacti there as well. very nice

[blip]

.

Edited April 6, 2010 by lsdreamz

[Gunter]

I'd love some of those many rib specimens in the witches market photo.

They are neat looking.

The market stuff isn't the stuff that is via demand sold to locals before it gets to market.

This is why the rib counts of market materials are not the lucky numbers, those ones were picked up first leaving the others behind.

[trucha]

I do not know what those many ribbed ones are (there seems to be two sorts of the many ribbed things there - one more like a 14 ribbed pachanoi and other with more felted areoles looks more like some sort of a Browningia or something) but some other fatter and many ribbed tips encountered looked like one of the Neoraimondias already known to be used.

Its worth keeping in mind there are a number of applications for cacti, use as a hair rinse is very common, some uses are external not ingestive, some are used as poultices, some are used in baths, some traditionally get used for cleaning drinking water, some get burned for ash production.

Pachanoi possessing 14 ribs are apparently specifically sought out for certain magical applications.

acranthus or similar is my present guess on the other. This was claimed to be used according to a weird paper by A. Caycho Jimenez that offered no detail so it was a bit interesting to see it pop up again.

As background, I was sent a photo claiming to show 5 types of san pedro a few years ago and set about organizing the acquisition of live materials for study (not by me but my professional researchers). That sad lot of cuttings is the result of what proved to be a money and time intensive process.

The giganton in that original photo was apparently not sent.

All of those plants are said to be in use by Peruvian shamans but there was so much weirdness in this adventure I would suggest taking an "Interesting if it proves to be true" position for the moment.

The use of Armatocereus keeps cropping up but it feels strange that no one claiming it is both used and strong either uses it or had used it.

Considering its been claimed many years ago in Wade Davis's paper on plants of the san pedro cult its really odd to me that nothing more is known.

The bioassays I am aware of using Armatocereus species (they ingested both laetus and procera separately) produced no results in the person doing the bioassay.

Edited March 2, 2009 by trucha

[Teotzlcoatl]

Very very interesting.

Thanks for posting!

"Lost Pedros" anybody?

Anybody got a list of the reputed psychoactive "San Pedro" genra?

Edited March 2, 2009 by Teotz'

[M S Smith]

The picture I posted above is no way even a Trichocereus. One need only look at the spacing between areoles to see that. I don't know what it is, but like Armatocereus, which likely is lacking in any entheogenic effect, just because it is sold or used ceremonially doesn't at all mean that it is psychoactive; there are no doubt many plants that are reputed agents of divination, etc., which are devoid of any effect that might warrant us considering them means of access to the divine. What we do know though is that traditional means of divining illness in particular are dependent upon the shaman entering an altered state, not necessarily the client, and this more common than not without the use at all of any psychoactive substances. Why one would think that a plant is psychoactive solely on its ceremonial divinatory use is beyond me and is not in line with the current knowledge of shamanism and traditional healing.

~Michael~

[Gunter]

I bet those gourds and eggplants are super potent!

[trucha]

depicting clouds as objects

we give names to shapes

and we call that understanding

[Gunter]

Guilty as charged.

it is a double edged sword isn't it?

[Teotzlcoatl]

Y'all lost me...

[Gunter]

You think that's weird, look what is being sold in the Witches Market in Peru (presumably Chiclayo).

What genus is this?

~Michael~

The picture I posted above is no way even a Trichocereus. One need only look at the spacing between areoles to see that.

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/inde...showtopic=15935

and from that link here is a Trichocereus crassiarboreus that looks pretty close to that "no way it is a tricho plant.

Just some food for thought...

[Gunter]

I am not so sure that some of those plants aren't trichocereus...

[trucha]

Good swords are often double edged and sharp. Not a problem so long as they have a handle that is not.

Edited March 19, 2009 by trucha

[Teotzlcoatl]

Its bizarre that people who know a lot about cacti can snap photos of such intriguing things showing no meaningful details and just move on.

People just enjoy toying with us Cacti-heads Mr.Trout

[trucha]

-

Edited March 19, 2009 by trucha

[Evil Genius]

Hi Guys! Ben just told me that its a uncommon Trichocereus Pachanoi! I´m very suprised myself but i trust him on that! bye Eg

[M S Smith]

Hi Guys! Ben just told me that its a uncommon Trichocereus Pachanoi! I´m very suprised myself but i trust him on that! bye Eg

What's an uncommon T. pachanoi? The cactus picture I posted in post #3 and which I found through a Flickr.com search?

If so, I'd love to see the similar plants from the Sacred Succulents trip which Ben says are T. pachanoi. Eg, can you post the photo...or maybe email it to me?

The only T. pachanoi I see in post #3 above is the thinner cut one on top of the larger plants.

~Michael~

[trucha]

He fairly recently commented to me that he could find no evidence of hybridization or intermediates in Peru.

Edited March 18, 2009 by trucha

[t st tantra]

so in this area peruvianus is called san pedro?

maybe even any cactii used for spiritual type reasons?

14 rib pachanoi? is there such a thing?

14 rib san pedro ,as above,makes more sense but i hope to be educated.........

t s t .

[M S Smith]

Well I finally got to see the Sacred Succulents shot of the same plants as those I posted in the photo above, and seriously, I don't care what anyone says, those are not T. pachanoi. Maybe if they had a flower shot and it matched a Trichocereus flower I would come around, but all the odd ones in that shot show 15 ribs and obviously closer areoles. In the SS photo you will notice on a cut stump that the ribs are at far sharper angles than the somewhat more rounded ribs a similarly cut T. pachanoi which is immediately behind it.

On the photo I posted the areole differences are even more pronounced, including showing fuzzy yellow to cream colored areole hair. They also have the same sort or rib numbers as the SS photo, 14 to 16 or so. Now I challenge anyone to even find me a 9 or 10 rib T. pachanoi. Unheard of, maybe not, but even if you found it I bet it looks nothing like these weird plants. I can't even seem to find an 8 ribbed T. pachanoi in all my photos. Can anyone really think that T. pachanoi, which generally have 5 to 7 ribs, somehow jumps over 8 through 13 to give 14 to 16 ribs? I don't.

I have stacks of T. pachanoi photos in habitat and there is nothing at all similar to these plants. Anyone can go ahead and claim all they want that they are T. pachanoi, but when some real evidence settles the matter everyone will see that it isn't T. pachanoi, and likely isn't even a Trichocereus at all. Maybe after I handle some of the personal matters I have going on in my life right now, a death in the family , I will find out exactly what plant it actually is.

And sure the plant might be significant to shamans, but that neither means they are T. pachanoi nor that they actually are hallucinogenic, which seems a bit similar to Armatocereus that are used ritualistically. I can imagine that any cactus which is used in a ritual manner consistent with tradition is called San Pedro regardless of whether it is even a Trichocereus or hallucinogenic.

~Michael~

Edited March 19, 2009 by M S Smith

[trucha]

There appears to be three seemingly different cacti there.

The ones with more felt on the areoles look more like one of the very short spined Browningia species or something else other than trichs.

More info is needed.

Interestingly though there are now several claims of 14 ribbed pachanoi being not just rare but actively sought out and employed for certain types of magical applications in Peru. I would need to get home to access the details. I have no idea what to think about those claims (especially as the first time I heard this was in a letter from Knize where he also claimed flowers were used) but I do look forward to someone learning more. I'm not convinced they are pachanoi but I am not convinced any of us has much of any real knowledge concerning what those interesting ones with small areoles are so will keep an open mind about them. (ie the center one in the bottom row and the two left hand ones in the row above the bottom row)

Rib numbers, like spination, can mean relatively little despite how much gets made out of it.

There are what sure do appear to be pachanoi in California occasionally expressing up to 14 ribs on new growth on older plants. (I am not referring to Juul's or the peruvianusXJuuls) I will focus on getting images in hand this year on my next trip south. I MAY be able to do this on my way home this trip if I have time but I've been traveling for more than a couple of weeks already and really want to get back home.

As what is intended as a friendly response to half of Michael's request (I prefer to view as a request rather than a challenge):

A 9 ribbed pachanoi is shown flowering in the Peruvianus pachanoi photos on the pachanot page. Look at the image showing the floral tubes for a very clear rib count. The image I refer to is a plant growing in a shaman's garden near Cuzco. I'm really surprised that you did not catch that already?

[edit: image mentioned is the left hand image in the 9th image set from the bottom of the page on http://www.largelyaccurateinformationmedia...o/pedro_02.html]

Don't misunderstand though, I am not trying to say I know anything about what is actually in that fascinating marketplace photo. I do look forward to learning more in the future.

Lots of plants, including noncacti, get called san pedro in Peru.

Ott made a wonderfully wise comment some years ago which I no doubt paraphrase:

"Absence of evidence cannot serve as evidence of absence"

In this case we may in fact have some hint that evidence of something truly interesting may be forthcoming.

Edited March 20, 2009 by trucha

[Gunter]

There are native systems of classification of San Pedro based on rib count and they include mention of San Pedro with 14 ribs or so...

I believe that while the average rib count is 8 (+/- 2) exceptions are known.

One could say the same thing Mike did about 4 ribbed plants and say that they clearly aren't san pedro, but the truth is that rib count varies and though 4 ribbed plants are rare they exist, just like 14 ribbed plants.

Areole spacing is nearly worthless for ID. So many variables can exist there, including different light intensities, which can undermine any astute observations we temperate collectors may make.

I trust the people who saw the plants in person. They know what San Pedro looks like as well as anyone.

I think that the ceremonial cactus thing is bullshit myself, that is to say that evidence of ritualistic use doesn't exist that i have seen. There is a point and a purpose beyond going through the motion that reaches well beyond symbolism, otherwise the choice of cactus would be arbitrary and it clearly isn't.

Edited March 20, 2009 by Archaea