Israel conflict

[JDanger]

It has taken me days to begin writing this, so horrified have I been by Israel's latest actions. My sense of justice, however - as a mother, a Jew, and above all as a human being - impels me to try.

The massacre in Gaza has its roots in virulent European anti-Semitism and the 1917 Balfour declaration, when the British government promised Zionists that Jewish people would have a homeland in Palestine if Britain was victorious in World War I.

The key word here is homeland, and it should be remembered that the promise was qualified by the condition that such a homeland would "not be to the detriment" of the Palestinians. The steady increase in Jewish immigration under the British mandate provoked riots and protests, but Palestinians were still in majority until, in the aftermath of the Holocaust, the Zionists unilaterally declared an Israeli state.

Despite the suffering of the Palestinians, whose land was taken from them, for many years the sympathy of the developed world was with Israel, refuge for the survivors of the Nazi slaughter of European Jews, and beleaguered by surrounding hostile Arab states.

With the 1967 occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, Israel could no longer be accepted as a victim. Yet it has continued to play on the sympathies of Western governments, most particularly the US, and Jews of the diaspora. In reality, Israel has been a colonising state, masquerading as the most democratic, most humane, most modern nation in the region. It has served the Western powers to have such a proxy in the Middle East, and most recently, under the Bush Administration and in concert with the Israelis, they have played a cynical game of divide and rule, encouraging the Israelis in their blind refusal to negotiate with Hamas, just as for years Israel refused to negotiate with the Palestine Liberation Organisation, the forerunners of Fatah, whom they now support.

Hamas is not a terrorist organisation, but the legitimate, democratically elected government of the Palestinian Authority. We may not like what it stands for, but that is no reason for sidelining it. Undermining that government by Israel and the West is but one of a string of cynical actions on their part.

The rationale that Hamas has refused to accept Israel's existence or to eschew violence is yet another example of how the truth has been twisted. What Hamas rejected was the continued, barbaric Israeli occupation of the West Bank, and the laying down of arms against an aggressive military occupation. I have heard with my own ears the Hamas Prime Minister, Ismail Haniyeh, say exactly that. Is he to be trusted? It would have been worth a try.

And who now would trust Israel?

So here we have it: a tough, technocratically savvy, nuclear power with the backing of the largest military power the world has known, bombing, then invading, a territory the size of a small city, with a population of 1.5 million, most of whom are civilians, to "defend our citizens".

The ceasefire was meant to lift the Israeli blockade on Gaza, but it didn't. It was meant to facilitate the release of Palestinian prisoners, many of whom were members of the elected Hamas Government, but it didn't.

Israeli planes raided southern Gaza in November. The Hamas rockets continued. Which side broke the ceasefire? Hamas may not be blameless, but the situation is far more complex than Israel claims. The fact that more than 600 people have died because in a couple of weeks the US will have a new government and next month Israel will have an election, is the most shocking form of cynicism the Palestinian people have yet faced.

Since the 2006 invasion of Lebanon I have undergone what for me, as a Jew, has been an agonising realignment of my feelings about Israel. I have come to believe that a specifically Jewish state has been a terrible mistake.

A homeland is different from a state. There have been examples throughout history and there are in our own time polities with mixed ethnic populations and official sanction for their living in harmony together. Australia is one.

I don't know how it will come about - I hope with as little bloodshed as possible - but I look forward to the distant day when the land becomes a multicultural country again, perhaps as a federation, perhaps in another form, but similar to what it was before it was destroyed with the poison of ethnic territorial nationalism.

Sara Dowse is an author who wrote Sapphires, a novel about three generations of Jewish women.

SMH Article

[baphomet]

Thanks for that.

Apartheid sucks, there's no doubt about it. It should be condemned in Israel just as it was in South Africa. Blind sympathy for some of the atrocities committed in WW2 has gone too far and is now perpetuating many modern day horrors and wars with more surely on the way.

There needs to be a change in attitude.. In fact some serious mental deprogramming on a mass scale before it's too late and we're dragged into another war (probably with Iran).

[_e_]

Thanks for that.

Apartheid sucks, there's no doubt about it. It should be condemned in Israel just as it was in South Africa. Blind sympathy for some of the atrocities committed in WW2 has gone too far and is now perpetuating many modern day horrors and wars with more surely on the way.

There needs to be a change in attitude.. In fact some serious mental deprogramming on a mass scale before it's too late and we're dragged into another war (probably with Iran).

best thign ive read from you in this post! spot on

[MindExpansion]

Finally bapho, something I can agree with you on.

Peace

[Torsten]

In the war on terror in both afghanistan and iraq we are always told by the media how many insurgents and terrorists have been killed that day. The media does not give the benefit of doubt or even challenge these assertions. This makes it sound like these wars are very precise and that only those who shoot at soldiers end up getting killed. But war is far more messy than that. In previous wars about 80% of the victims were women and children and even though this number has been reduced somewhat, it is still unacceptably high.

The figures for the war in Gaza a couple of days ago were that about 1000 palestinians have been killed. Of these about 600 were women and children. A separate report put the number of children at 400. I am using the figures from a few days ago because they are nice round numbers that easily translate in percentages. 40% children, 20% women, 40% men. The media and the west like to report that these 40% men were all enemies, however if you look at how many innocent women and children are killed then it shows just how indiscriminate the killing really is. One has to assume that a large number of these male victims were indeed innocent too. If you assume that just half the dead men were innocent then this really brings the percentages of innocent victims back to exactly the same as in WW1 or WW2 - 80%.

And why did 800 innocent people have to die? Because a handful of Israelis die from Hamas rockets each year.

Even if you don't take any sides in such a conflict, one has to look at what sort of people will sacrifice 800 innocent lives to protect a few lives of people who for the most part are in a territory that doesn't belong to them [ie settlers in the continued expansion of Israel].

I don't like Hamas or what it stands for, but it makes my skin crawl to think what inhuman monsters perpetrate such disproportionate killings. And let's not forget that Israel can't do any of this without the help of the USA, both financially and in terms of weapons.

Yesterday the Israelis shelled the UN compound even though they knew that 700 terrified people were sheltering there and that this compound is the only source of UN food distribution for Gaza.

Yesterday the Israelis also shelled a media building even though all media locations were provided to the army before the war began.

Today the Israelis shelled a Hospital, sending injured people fleeing the flames. What sort of survival chances would the premature babies have that needed to be wheeled out in their cribs without power or even a plan where to go.

I just gave these three examples of how we must not get blinded by the media reports of the precision that is often claimed by the military. Apparently all 3 of these incidents were accidental. Doesn't say much for the military's accuracy then. It also doesn't say much for the humanity of the people doing this as they knew exactly that they were shooting at a hospital, a refugee camp, and the media building.

Personally I actually expected more of a slaughter as this is what the Israeli's have done in the past. It pays to look into some of the atrocities they have committed in lebanon in the 80's for example. UN resolution after resolution condemming them [as long as they US didn't veto it], but no action or consequence ever making them learn from their 'mistakes'.

[Alice]

I've read none of this thread so not sure if this has been said. But the title caught my eye and reminded me of a recent conversation re censorship.

My friend said he had had numerous facebook comments re Israel deleted recently.

For verification, he suggested to make a comment with the word "israel" in it. Wait half an hour and refresh, and the comment mysteriously dissappears.

Then make a comment about "the middle east", wait, refresh, and sure enough, it disappears.

Now I dont have a facebook account to try this, but would be curious to see if others have experienced similar censorship.

I find it a little disturbing.

Sorry if this is off topic, like i said, i haven't read the thread. But i thought it worthy of comment.

[baphomet]

Is it only comments critical of israel that get deleted or does every generic comment about the middle east get deleted too? Has he tried making one in support of israel and in condemnation of hamas??

Why not try it and see what happens? I would but I don't have a facebook account.

Sounds like an interesting little experiment.

Edited January 16, 2009 by baphomet

[Alice]

Not sure, sorry. I'd try it out myself but like i said, i don't have a facebook account.

[Chiral]

LOL...I reckon a way around that is to miss spell Isreal or middel east..that would be funny if it still got deleted..

H.

[baphomet]

Not sure, sorry. I'd try it out myself but like i said, i don't have a facebook account.

Yea I know, that's cool, it seems lots of other people here do, we even have a facebook whoring section here so I'm sure someone could try it out?

There are countless examples of censorship of criticism towards israel on the net (and all forms of media..) so this would not surprise me at all but what did seem a little strange is that you said that a comment about the middle east was pulled, it would surprise me if it was just a generic reference to the middle east with no mention of israel cause I just don't think that would get pulled, I'd like to see someone condemn islamic terrorism in the middle east and see if that gets pulled, I highly doubt it, although I don't know anything about facebook, is there a rule that states that all political discussion should be deleted?

Edited January 16, 2009 by baphomet

[_e_]

watched 'full metal jacket' last night whilst in a very vulnerable psychological state... was quite full on, to consider just how much the 'terror' and such must have evolved and escalated to date. (and then watched blood diamond for extra measure)

i remember reading somewhere/hearing someone say that the human race is bound to war and conflict, untill there is only one remaining 'tribe'..... is a very confronting reality, we are such a violent/terretorial species..... when/how will it end?

[Chiral]

watched 'full metal jacket' last night whilst in a very vulnerable psychological state... was quite full on, to consider just how much the 'terror' and such must have evolved and escalated to date. (and then watched blood diamond for extra measure)

i remember reading somewhere/hearing someone say that the human race is bound to war and conflict, untill there is only one remaining 'tribe'..... is a very confronting reality, we are such a violent/terretorial species..... when/how will it end?

2012

and the meek shall inherit the earth.

H.

[baphomet]

2012.. Lol Good one.

EDIT: So how's that experiment coming along? Any volunteers??

Edited January 16, 2009 by baphomet

[mutant]

Fuck Israel and fuck the US

[baphomet]

let's not forget the islamists (and every other war mongering asshole on the face of the earth)

Edited January 16, 2009 by baphomet

[Garbage]

Maybe those Jews should be moved on,Tazmania perhaps?

It's an empty land.

It never existed.

The Jews will make the desert bloom.

They would have no Semitic neighbours to externalise their antii-semitism upon.

Palestine would return to being a religious backwater on the Med,visited by holy land tourists.

There could be an international understanding that they would not be permitted to leave the island but would not be bombed either.

Thus a separate race of chosen people could get on with whatever it is they do if separated from their hosts.

Edited January 17, 2009 by Garbage

[blog]

Gaza doctor's tragedy caught on Israeli TV - 17 Jan 09

Palestinian doctor Ezzeldeen Abu al-Aish was giving Israel's Channel 10 his daily account from

inside the war zone in Gaza when three of his daughters were killed in an Israeli attack.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=8UxJWdCwOpc&fmt=34

Israel kills a Father's 4 children

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=3lENAs9l-7g&fmt=34

Israel kills an entire family of 5 children and parents.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=_gEBO-6VRjs&fmt=34

Israel burns a baby to death (raw vision, extremely graphic)

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=13b_1231773588

Infanticide?

Edited January 17, 2009 by blog

[mutant]

Garbage, lol

they would sure figure out a way to run the whole thing from there! Be absolutely sure for it!

[Garbage]

You notice the robbery of the Goyim too?

[Chiral]

let's not forget the islamists (and every other war mongering asshole on the face of the earth)

Baph don't lump in Islamic extremists with general peace loving Islam folks..its like saying that right wing Christian extremists speak for all Christians...it just isn't true.

H.

[chilli]

Baph don't lump in Islamic extremists with general peace loving Islam folks..its like saying that right wing Christian extremists speak for all Christians...it just isn't true.

Good luck convincing him of that.

[baphomet]

There is another thread to debate that if you wish, (you know the one ).

Not that I entirely disagree with your statement as SC would have you believe but you'll need more than just luck to convince me of anything

IMO "peaceful muslims" are confused muslims who haven't read the koran or hadith properly http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm

If you think muhamed was so peaceful and that I am just demonising him then I challenge you to point out at least one occasion where Jesus (or The Buddha) preached violence?

The closest that Jesus ever came to using violence was to KICK THE MONEY CHANGERS OUT OF THE TEMPLE, the same money changers who now run the worlds banking system, we need to get him back here ASAP!! (no I'm not a christian)

"The Jews will make the desert bloom"

Yea by stealing everyone else's water like they do in israel

Infanticide?

"while they look on helplessly their babies will be battered to death, their houses will be looted and their wives will be raped"

- god of the jews - isaiah 13: 16 (speaking about the people of babylon)

Psalm 137:9 - Blessed is the one who grabs your little children and smashes them against a rock (about the people of Babylon).

"kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."

-Moses - Numbers 31:7-18

Israeli rabbis: Thou shalt kill civilians

"Four leading Israeli rabbis have sanctioned the murder of civilian population in the Gaza Strip amid the Israeli onslaught on the region.

"When a population living near a Jewish town sends bombs at the Jewish town with the purpose of killing and destroying Jewish lives there, it is permitted, according to Jewish Law, to fire shells and bombs at the firing sites, even if they are populated by civilians," read a ruling issued by Rabbi Yaakov Yosef, Rabbi Dov Lior, Rabbi Shalom Dov Wolpe and Rabbi Meir Mazuz.

The four added that a warning should be issued prior to any attacks; however, they reiterated that the army's response to rocket or mortar fires may be immediate "even if there is no time for a warning."

The rabbis argued that the army should announce that it would bomb any civilian community from which a rocket is fired to force the local residents into confronting those who fire rockets or mortars at Israeli targets.

Rabbi Mazuz is a member of the Shas Council of Torah Sages.

The ruling seems to give a free hand to Israeli commanders to attack Gaza's civilian population and persuade those troops who have reservations to kill civilians due to humanitarian considerations.

Tel Aviv launched an "all-out war" against the enclave allegedly to put an end to rocket attacks by Palestinian factions on Israel. IAF warplanes and helicopters have so far pounded over 300 targets, including schools and TV stations across the coastal area since Saturday.

The attacks have left at least 385 people killed and 1,800 others wounded, Palestinian medical sources told Press TV.

According to UN officials, 57 civilians, including women and children, are among the victims.

Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, however, had formerly downplayed the high number of civilian deaths saying civilian casualties are a quite normal outcome of war."

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=79947...ionid=351020202

Lovely religion judaism

Edited January 20, 2009 by baphomet

[ThunderIdeal]

aaarrghh!

anyway, the first page of this thread had lots of posters saying 'well, hamas seems to have started this with their rocket attacks'. i don't know if it's been mentioned but my understanding is that israel actually broke the ceasefire last year to bomb some high-ranking palestinian. this doesn't alter the fact that hamas fired rockets at israel but they didn't exactly start this conflict off.

[baphomet]

Wasn't in response to an Israeli raid into the Gaza Strip on November 4 and the fact that Israel had not lifted the blockade on the Gaza Strip?

I think it pays to ask questions as to why people would seemingly "pick" a fight they know they can't win.

[The Dude]

I think it pays to ask questions as to why people would seemingly "pick" a fight they know they can't win.

Maximum lol-age at ^^^. It's like a person that gets the joke 30 minutes into the next comedians routine. Here's Baph asking the real question after giving SC shit 2 pages ago when he totally misunderstood him alluding to the exact same thing!!! Ah what are we alluding to? Seriously peeps, look up the meaning of this symbol:

<-- click it!

Things, might just 'click'. Or it might be a case of...

Edited January 22, 2009 by The Dude