The ordinary-ness of "Eileen"

[George]

I don't really understand where this thread is heading nor the point of it? Not to put it down, that's not what i mean, hard to explain i guess.

....

Hate to sound shallow but for me it was "...and have seen many other pics..": Straight into anticipation and elaborate description without fulfillment of a possible promise. Bummer...

Nice one to the other posters trying to make up for it though.

[mutant]

Very intersting thread!! Keep it up! I want an Eileen too!

I will plant her in the ground along with my other bridge this spring and see who is gonna win

will you sponsor me, Ed??

[gerbil]

Hate to sound shallow but for me it was "...and have seen many other pics..": Straight into anticipation and elaborate description without fulfillment of a possible promise. Bummer...

Nice one to the other posters trying to make up for it though.

am a bit slow, i don't follow?

edit: actually i think i follow now lol ignore this

Edited January 8, 2009 by gerbil

[benjahman]

I have not bio-assayed it yet, but I am going predict that Eileen is not remarkably potent compared to many other bridgesii..

I have not bio-assayed it yet

I have not bio-assayed it yet

Mate you should pick up one of these:

http://cgi.ebay.com/PROSTHETIC-LEG-WITH-LE...93%3A1|294%3A50

Wicked for standing on

Get back to us if/when you manage to bioassay a piece of older plant material.

I can't fault the content of the rest of your post(s) though mate, as individual propositions they are solid, but the quoted statement above prevents you from being able to justify with any sense of certainty your conclusion that Eileen is in an entheogenic sense a "fairly typical bridgesii".

Many may disagree, but in my opinion there is more to the cactus experience experientially than simple mescaline content coupled with set and setting. The consumption of pachanoi, peruvianus or bridgesii is really rather different to that of straight sulfate or hydrochloride salt. There are clones out there that many people find consumption of markedly stronger and or more entheogenically significant than consumption of equal weight of that clones mescaline content alone.

Bridgesii is commented on by many as being very different from pedro and peru and straight hydrochloride.

Many people find some clones that have a unique spectrum of effects that appeals to them more than other clones/extracted substances. Eileen is a clone many people definitely seem to find this with.

I'm working 60+ hours a week atm and really don't want to get into an argument about this, it's just a very subjective, scientifically legless opinion a few people hold with respect to trichs... Despite this I hope it helps a little to explain to you why some people feel Eileen is more than ordinary Nitrogen.

I think the future is promising and likely involves the discovery of other excellent clones/strains of bridgesii..

Most definitely.

Good luck with the sales in the future. As for me I am a very poor salesman cause I'm very poor at inflating the worth of anything.

~Michael~

Don't think you've met Ed. He is a genuine and generous person. He also has a chronic debilitating illness and just like the rest of us has to eat. Ed was initially very slow to praise Eileen, it's only after much positive feedback from others that he recapitulated their thoughts on it, in addition to noting its rot resistance and water tolerance (and it is the most rot resistant of the 10+ bridgesoid clones I've grown). Don't quietly paint a good fella as an underhanded hustling prick. It's offensive and unwarranted.

For others reading I repeat: Ed is a genuine and good person.

have i missed pics of Eds mother plant in bloom?

yes you have mate

http://reshroomed.bigpondhosting.com/photo1.jpg

http://reshroomed.bigpondhosting.com/photo2.jpg

http://reshroomed.bigpondhosting.com/photo8.jpg

http://reshroomed.bigpondhosting.com/photo12.jpg

P.S. Real fucken sorry I didn't make it to the camping trip and haven't been at SAB at all PD, have been flat stick with work this past few months only able to get a week off for the whole year all up.

All the best guys

Edited January 8, 2009 by benjahman

[mutant]

Disclaimer: I have never bioessayed any cactus

Indeed it seems [from various reports] that bridgesii's have something somewhat different compared to other active trichs, but you cannot underestimate the power of mind. If you think Eileen is special, you will propably have a special trip, especially if Eileen is the only bridgesii you use ;)

I am convinced that bridgesii's are somewhat special... I love the debate, and I admittedly liked the initial post...

And maybe, just maybe, if the new growth is not so active [if any, in general in active columnar trichs] and the older parts are, then it's pretty understandable [and possible] that the old plants have even bigger potential...what ever the sp. whatever the clone.... And maybe a cutting of an already established, mature plant carries in a better degree the qualities of the mother, like a cutting of a flowering brugmansia carries along the flowering data so that the new plant will flower as if it was never cut and reborn into a new plant - excuse the harsh example...

Maybe, Eileen motherplant, f.e. was one of the first if not the first bridgesii established in the ground in Australia, propably well-cared for , and maybe, just maybe, since it became a big cactus, it developed all of its psychoactive potential.. Of course, other clones might develop less or more such abilities given the same setting....

A cacti-noob's thoughts...

[PD.]

You fuggen champion Ben, you come thru with the goods as usual ;) Thanks heap for the pics mate. Been meanin to call ya to catch up soon! Dont work too hard.

For others reading I repeat: Ed is a genuine and good person.

I agree 100%. Actually, when Ed does sell chunks of eileen they are usually at a very reasonable price afaic, he could sell them for a lot more than he does in most cases.

[M S Smith]

Don't think you've met Ed. He is a genuine and generous person. He also has a chronic debilitating illness and just like the rest of us has to eat. Ed was initially very slow to praise Eileen, it's only after much positive feedback from others that he recapitulated their thoughts on it, in addition to noting its rot resistance and water tolerance (and it is the most rot resistant of the 10+ bridgesoid clones I've grown). Don't quietly paint a good fella as an underhanded hustling prick. It's offensive and unwarranted.

For others reading I repeat: Ed is a genuine and good person.

I certainly was not trying to "paint a good fella as an underhanded hustling prick." I find it a bit "offensive and unwarranted" that you would even imply that that was my opinion of Ed or that I was presenting him as either disingenuous or a bad person. I was only making light of the reality of capitalism. Hell, I'm all for capitalism, and made more fun of my own failure to benefit from selling awesome clones in my own collection than I was ever critical of him trying to make money. But at the same time I was pointing out that saying good things about what you want to sell, even if completely true, is the way to go. Nothing wrong with that. So no, I wasn't implying anything of the sort towards Ed, and though I haven't had the pleasure of meeting him, as far as I can remember, I bet he's a fine fellow worthy of purchasing a plant from.

~Michael~

[Osprey]

I am very lucky to have been able to get a big cutting of eileen from Ed,which I have multiplied to be able to spread some out and still have 6 growing.

So far,I have 3 australian clones,Eileen,Mum n Dad,and Bruce.(All bridgesii)

I treasure them and love them,and hope to grow a fucking forest of them.

I'm hoping to get more Oz clones too.(PsychoO,Lance,etc. if I can talk some of you guys into it.

Australian Bridgesii clones Rock!

[reshroomED]

ED, forgive me..an answer to what? I'm obviously blanking. Sorry.

But I can assure you I haven't been "nay-saying" the plant for "several years now", as I have probably only said two or three times in all these years (besides my "ditto" above) that I didn't see it as particularly worthy of the attention its gotten...God forbid. Now what can you expect from someone like myself, "with *very* little personal experience" with the plant, other than to challenge others to justify the inflated view of it. I'm happy to have a little Eileen though.

Sorry, thought the question was obvious (the "What gives" bit at the end was a clue). I'll try to pin it down for you:

Why have you been commenting that you doubt both reported growth parameters and alkaloid content in the clone "Eileen", when you have absolutely no evidence to warrant either the suspicion or it's expression in public.

I'm far from interested in a public dispute, but you definitely have been casting such aspersions on several of the main entheogen fora for several years. I've asked you why you reply in such a manner in the concerned threads at least three times before I gave up trying due to lack of a response. I'd be more than happy to track such threads down and cut-and-paste your comments if you insist that you haven't made them. I rarely get cranky on the web as it serves little purpose other than to make you appear foolish, but definitely do not like my word be refuted with no evidence to back up such claims.

If your comments were made, Michael, by someone of 'lesser standing' in the cactii community I'd ignore them as noises made by a random fool on the net. But coming from you, have more bearing than they may have from another, so equally fair that you answer for them.

And as for my "positively identifying the same pic of the plant as two different cactii - possibly three", well I share opinions as much as the next and I doubt I gave any opinion on this plant outside of it fitting into T. bridgesii. I can't recall my ever having made an attempt to "positively identify" any particular clone of T. bridgesii, especially this one as I haven't paid a whole lot of attention to it to begin with.

Yet again, I'm not bull-shitting, and getting more annoyed at being told that I am. You did positively ID this clone as a bridge about five/six years ago (Spiritplants? - I've a hard-copy of the thread anyway) quoting sunken aureoles and the bridgesii tri-spine formation as positive markers. At another fora around the same time you ID'd the same plant as different spp altogether.

Back up your statements, or rescind them and apologise or I'll make a list of them here for all to see who's full of shit.

The point of this thread is certainly not to trash Eileen, but more to open people's eyes to the fact that, if this was just an un-named clone growing on USA soil, or in random people's collections, it may not have garnered any real attention.

The point some people seem to be missing is that it was in just such a garden otherwise it's characteristics wouldn't have been noted in the first place. It was only that it outshone all my other cuttings that I noticed it. Then about five years 'til I bothered mentioning it to anyone as "interesting", and about the same again until I started giving/trading cuts (and they were nearly all OS, mainly USA), and pretty close to another five years later we're having this conversation.

Also, that Australia has been very isolated in terms of exotic plants crossing our borders, with all this entails in decades spent with little/no new genetics etc.

I have a faint suspicion (which are as good as the smell of a faint fart for what they're worth) that we've upset the Seppo's by having the audacity to actually name our plants. And from such a commercial society, I suppose it's not unnatural for them to suspect a "NAME" is mostly associated with good marketing.

Personally, I thought the idea was a bit pretentious when i first heard of it (naming our distinctive plants), until I ended up in a conversation where we were all talking about "my Bridgesii" and soon became very confused. FWIW this Torsten's idea anyway, so all blame should lay with him (Sorry T )

ed

ps, thanks for the nice words fella's. My worth has be over-exaggerated in this thread far beyond what Eileen's ever has.

[M S Smith]

Why have you been commenting that you doubt both reported growth parameters and alkaloid content in the clone "Eileen", when you have absolutely no evidence to warrant either the suspicion or it's expression in public.

First off, I will express whatever manner of doubt I have in public as I damn well please with whatever intent I choose; that is my prerogative, and one which I give to others towards my views. Secondly, I have said extremely little about your precious little plant, particularly about growth parameters, unless that was to say that my Eileen in my garden grows no bigger in diameter than many of my other T. bridgesii. Any comments on its alkaloid content are all justified considering the fact that there is nothing that in fact does show that it has higher concentrations of mescaline than other T. bridgesii besides anecdotal information.

I'm far from interested in a public dispute, but you definitely have been casting such aspersions on several of the main entheogen fora for several years.

If I have cast aspersions on any plant I argued my case before my peers and they can be the judge of my arguments value. If I haven’t made a valid argument for my comments then they are equally free to dismiss me. I in fact often think I bring some sanity to discussions regarding entheogens. I may be wrong at times and often come to new conclusions from new information, but the least I do is cause meaningful discussion, something I think you would even agree with.

I've asked you why you reply in such a manner in the concerned threads at least three times before I gave up trying due to lack of a response.

I don’t even know what the “concerned threads” even is. I rarely go to any forum but the cactus one. Feel free to PM me next time…I’m usually pretty good at getting back to these, but sometimes I slack.

I'd be more than happy to track such threads down and cut-and-paste your comments if you insist that you haven't made them. I rarely get cranky on the web as it serves little purpose other than to make you appear foolish, but definitely do not like my word be refuted with no evidence to back up such claims.

I’m not going to insist that I haven’t made such comments, but I think I’ve already explained the nature of them and think it might do you well to read them again yourself to see that they are not as bad as you seem to want to make them out to be.

If your comments were made, Michael, by someone of 'lesser standing' in the cactii community I'd ignore them as noises made by a random fool on the net. But coming from you, have more bearing than they may have from another, so equally fair that you answer for them.

What makes you think I am not some “random fool on the net”? Because I talk a good game? As far as I am concerned though it is those who claim the uniqueness of Eileen who need to justify their comments, not me who questions them. If I am unjustified in my comments then it is you who needs to justify your claims to the satisfaction of our audience.

You did positively ID this clone as a bridge about five/six years ago (Spiritplants? - I've a hard-copy of the thread anyway) quoting sunken aureoles and the bridgesii tri-spine formation as positive markers. At another fora around the same time you ID'd the same plant as different spp altogether.

Back up your statements, or rescind them and apologise or I'll make a list of them here for all to see who's full of shit.

So fucking what…you think that means anything that I said a photo of Eileen was a T. bridgesii (which it is) and then in another place said it was a different species? Holy shit man, you want me to rescind my having said a plant was what it wasn’t five or six years ago? Are you kidding! I have enough difficulties living up to my own ideals of perfection much less yours. If such a mistake was made, and I will even accept that it was without having you dig up the thread, what does that have to do with your concern over my allegedly dissing Eileen? Dude, that’s wacked!

As for your comments directed towards nitrogen’s quote I’ll let him deal with that. Otherwise, I like Eileen and like the fact that we have clones with interesting and distinct names, regardless of their origin.

~Michael~

Edited January 10, 2009 by M S Smith

[Inyan]

Well said Michael. Your still the cactus god in many people's eyes so don't let it get you too bent. Looks like the more you learn and share the more someone wants to impress another by showing another up. At least thats my take on the matter. Could be wrong and it wouldn't be the first time. Enough said.

[M S Smith]

Here's what a search of my pertinent comments regarding Eileen at The Nook offer (from most recent to oldest):

“The more I look at Eileen the more I think it may be a cross beteen T. bridgesii and the fat blue T. peruvianus from the Matucana region, a form of plant that looks to be present in Australia.”

“I like Eileen, but have yet to find anything particularly interesting about her.”

“I suppose I should let it grow out a bit more, but so far I don't see much of a difference in appearance, and I doubt there is a great one in alkaloids either.”

“I'm not arguing that it isn't a unique clone, only that it is no more unique in appearence than some of my other T. bridgesii that don't fit the common variety. As for alkaloids, well I could really care less, but I do understand some will understand that as being unique.”

“Here's a little side by side of two plants, the first is "Eileen", the second is "Species C" from KT. They both are in the 2" diameter range.”

“Esoteric, our friends in Australia actually do add names to their plants; Bruce, Lance, Len, Eileen, and I'm sure some others. There is certainly some sense to this as it allows us all to at least know we have the same exact clone...that is as long as the provenance is well kept.”

“This plant is probably one of the most bitter tasting plants in my collection as was determined by the lick test, and though "Eileen" is getting lots of attention I think this one far more interesting”

“Here's the "Eilleen" of Australian fame. Just got it.”

I've said far less here at SAB and pretty much nothing elsewhere, but SAB's search function is different.

Here's something silly someone made for me years ago. Click it.

~Michael~

Edited January 10, 2009 by M S Smith

[M S Smith]

Can you spot "Eileen"? No cheating by looking back at past postings or my Flickr site. Post your opinion and why.

I would note that all these plants are in my collection and grown under identical conditions. Eileen is neither my fastest growing nor fattest T. bridgesii, and I can post pictures of it with black rot that didn't effect others if you want.

~Michael~

[gilligan]

#5... just looks like an eileen...

tastes good too

Edited January 11, 2009 by gilligan

[AndyAmine.]

I'd say 2, 4 or 6... its hard to tell because I dont have time to open them up to full size.

[Micromegas]

Interesting... 2 or 4 i reckon, leaning toward 4.

[planthelper]

I am very lucky to have been able to get a big cutting of eileen from Ed,which I have multiplied to be able to spread some out and still have 6 growing.

So far,I have 3 australian clones,Eileen,Mum n Dad,and Bruce.(All bridgesii)

I treasure them and love them,and hope to grow a fucking forest of them.

I'm hoping to get more Oz clones too.(PsychoO,Lance,etc. if I can talk some of you guys into it.

Australian Bridgesii clones Rock!

i think you confuse me with ed or i confuse you with somebody else,

but i think it was me swaping you the eillen for a juuls giant.

not that it makes much difference, but as i stated before, i made allways sure to give away eileen cuutings, for a modest barter, and quite frankly as said before ed does the same.

to claim, he over promotes this cacti, or to say he benefits above normal means, from the popularety of this cacti, is total crap, in fact, i think, he is rather very modest about it.

if eileen would have been given to michael by his mum, i am sure the eileen hype would have reached even higher proportions. because all american is always bigger and better and nummber 1.

maybe the two of you have met, i think ed was there when michael visited us to speak at a sab conference.,

but i could mix up conferences....

[Osprey]

i think you confuse me with ed or i confuse you with somebody else,

but i think it was me swaping you the eillen for a juuls giant.

It is true that my first eileen came from you,and it's fat and happy(thanx again)

i bought a big cutting from Ed also later.

if eileen would have been given to michael by his mum, i am sure the eileen hype would have reached even higher proportions. because all american is always bigger and

better and nummber 1.

I find these type negative anti-American generalizations about my country amusing.

but mis-guided

I suppose I had better stay on topic................

[planthelper]

thx, for clearing that up osprey!

and about my view point that america is nummber one in greating hypes, i think i am spot on.

just go and read the threads at the nook about chaliponga and compare them with threads about diplo here in oz!!

diplo topics at the nook, were a total hype and people were willing to pay 500 us for a single cutting of a plant which, in fact was not even a diplo.

[George]

First you tell her she's beutifull, now you want to dump her and grow arround. Hehehehe!!

Polygamy is the answer. All my wives are beutifull.

[M S Smith]

not that it makes much difference, but as i stated before, i made allways sure to give away eileen cuutings, for a modest barter, and quite frankly as said before ed does the same.

to claim, he over promotes this cacti, or to say he benefits above normal means, from the popularety of this cacti, is total crap, in fact, i think, he is rather very modest about it.

if eileen would have been given to michael by his mum, i am sure the eileen hype would have reached even higher proportions. because all american is always bigger and better and nummber 1.

I said only that this thread "may only further the attention this plant gets and reward you [Ed] better in the future...if you know what I mean" and "Good luck with the sales in the future. As for me I am a very poor salesman cause I'm very poor at inflating the worth of anything."

Neither of these comments should be construed as any claim that I believe Ed "over promotes this cacti" or "benefits above normal means," neither of which should even have actually been done by Ed would bother me in the least. Some others may have problems with promotion and income, I don't as I believe in "buyer beware." As for my saying I am a poor salesman and poor at inflating somethings worth, well its completely true about myself, and would be the case even if "eileen would have been given to [me by my] mum." I challenge anyone here to find my having truly hyped ANY cactus EVER.

Ed, you have my respect, even if Eileen garners no more than I would give to my RS or C clone T. bridgesii. And as far as I am concerned I hope you are rewarded well for sharing this plant.

~Michael~

[M S Smith]

Well since no one else seems to want to play...

#1) misc. T. bridgesii

#2) Eileen

#3) Species "C" from KT

#4) RS T. bridgesii (RS0004? or RS0005?, I can't remember offhand)

#5) T. bridgesii from Cactus Gems via KT

#6) SS02

Sorry if I've been an ass in this thread.

~Michael~

[gerbil]

I was leaning towards 5 but i've little experience with eileen oh yes excuses excuses gerbil Mine is quite harshly angeled in the ribs at this 'stage', but only the first proper fully rooted growing season for this one.

I really like 6, the ss02 wow sexy as hell.

I like them all though

[MORG]

I find these type negative anti-American generalizations about my country amusing.

but mis-guided

I suppose I had better stay on topic................

I find them cheap and embarrassing.

We're not all like that here in Australia.

[nitrogen]

Very interesting...

The bit about the alkaloid content - it is very true, I am speculating based on bitterness, and this is a weak argument except for the fact that bitterness is a decent indicator of activity (activity certainly, potency though not really - I have had very bitter T. pachanoi be quite weak)... With the bridgesii in my collection though, I have noticed a positive correlation between bitterness and potency (the more bitter the more potent)

An important variable to know though, is how many other strains of bridgesii have the same people who have tried Eileen tried?

I get the feeling that Eileen may be the only, or one of the only strains most of these people have tried. Almost certainly Eileen provided them with the most mature slab of cactus they have eaten, so likely Eileen provided them with the highest dose of alkaloids of any bridgesii they had had. High dose experiences tend to be more magical, healing, etc..

The thing that interests me then, is how would these other strains of bridgesii compare?

The experience of a strong dose of cactus tea has throughout the ages been described as "magical", "healing", "intense" etc etc - it would be very interesting to have several people try several strains and compare notes... How much does anticipation figure in? I.e - if I am already in love with the cactus because it is beautiful and a treasured part of my collection, and people have given it a pretty name, and they talk about its specialness to me, how much bearing does that have on my experience?

Also, when a strain is named, it seems to acquire extra value in people's minds instantly.. Certainly for me it does, despite that it seems illogical given that some of the unnamed ones I have growing I know to be fantastic despite their nameless obscurity..