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trucha

Cacti of Matucana

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kt, from what I've gathered plants of this nature are not restricted to the District of Matucana nor just surrounding the District capitol of Matucana, but are throughout the Province of Huarochirí of the Region of Lima. Similar plants also appear to be in the Province of Canta to the north.

For those who need a little help understanding the political divisions of Peru check out this wiki page. The interactive map will guide you.

I find it a little less than helpful that we now have another "KK242" to add into the bunch that have carried the name in the past, but I've had little doubt for some time now that the T. peruvianus in the photos are the "wild" plant of the region.

Here's some plants from the District of Matucana and near the Laguna de Ucte.

~Michael~

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Oh, I thought I should add these shots, they are of clearly "wild" plants near the Cascadas de Ucro in Huarochirí.

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Now don't be deceived into thinking it is the plants in the foreground that are what I'm pointing out...full size the pictures and tell me what you see strung all over the edges of the canyon walls in the background.

~Michael~

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These that Grizzly calls KK242s, like Rose's peruvianus, were growing above the town of Matucana along the old railroad line. "Above Matucana" covers a lot of territory and no doubt many more trichs due to how the mountains surround it.

They are not the predominate peruvianus though. That is fatter, less spiny and more like Eltzners/Icaros etcetera. Images are now posted.

Check out the other images now above for yet more plants looking like what Knize sells are his assorted KK242s. (More to come)

Most of these do occur in some form all over Peru (I'll be posting more images from elsewhere in Peru at some point when time permits) but some are more restricted towards the coastal regions and adjacent highland and others are more restricted to inland highlands.

One things complicating the view is that local people propagate by making cuttings of local plants and a LOT of harvesting of wild plants has occurred for many years now. Even a wild looking plant might be planted a long time ago - I tend to agree with Michael in thinking a plant on a cliff face is likely a wild one but since its believed the seeds get there via birds this may or may not be the truth for any given individual.

It is said the short spined pachanoi used to be present in huge wild stands in the lower elevations but these were all wiped out through harvesting some time back.

Was it wild there? I do not think there is any way to know one way or the other.

Hopefully someday some genetics work might be able to occur on these.

Edited by trucha

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Thanks for posting the images trucha. Definitely lends credence to Knize's Matucana KK242.

Awesome looking plants, great to see.

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Dspite thinking these nicely vindicate Knize in many regards, I still do agree with the assertion of Michael and others that Knize has sold at least some cuzcoensis seed as KK242 and several other forms of peruvianus. The exact extent of this is far from clear.

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Awesome work.

At least we know that those are where they say they are. That patch looks familiar but reaaaly matucana FAT!!

http://www.accurateinformationmedia.com/Ma...3_c_Grizzly.jpg

And it does resemble patch collected from other regions too. If we had this type of info for the entire tricho regions it might rend past taxonomy kinda silly, unless DNA get's involved and I don't think I would go that far or atleast I don't see any value in it unless you absolutely feel that it's somehow really important to know that you have a TRUE whatever of whatsorts. But I can't say where to draw the line or where folk spend their energy for kicks.

It does somehow tickle the entertainment knob for some in the hobby, minus frustrations that may come from it of course. Everyone may have a differant fettish os sorts and you have to respect that.

Museum.jpg

For the really obsessed, I always wondered what this is, is it a wall or just something that happened to look like one, side of a railroad perhaps.

If I had the time, money and the obsessive urge I would have loved to find this exact spot, matching the curvature of the landscape and then finding that rige or wall. That could be a treasure hunt challenge and you could name it after who ever took the photo. The dude who get's it will also go down in some sora history for sure, if a little bit of fame is your thing.

Trucha

you definitely added some accurate information points on your score board. Nice one.

Hehehehe!!

Edited by George

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Very nice, this thread helps me alot!

Matucana_10_b_Grizzly.jpg

Mr.Trout do you want me to post your pics like I did above? So people can actually see them without clicking them? I find it annoying. I'd be glad to take the time to put them up for you if that's ok?

Edited by Teotz'

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These looks alot like the RS0004 and the reddy the ICARO maybe.

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I love this. Grizzly is da man.

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The diversity among these plants that exist "above Matucana" is quite broad, from very long-thick-spined forms (04_a), to short-thin-spined forms (03_a), to nearly spineless forms (13_c). It would appear to me that even among this population of plants we can say we have the whole range of plants from T. peruvianus, to T. macrogonus, to T. pachanoi. Honestly I might think that should you take these plants and grow them in multiple locations you would at one point have them be labeled every one of these species due to their wide habits of growth and how growth would be effected by different regions and environments.

The more I explore the particular plants of central Peru north into Ecuador the more I think they come out of the same original population, and that the original dispersal was particularly human in origin, and probably from plants in the province of Huarochiri. Now clearly there are other species somewhat similar, such at T. bridgesii, and T. cuzcoensis, but I would guess that their break off the family tree was much earlier (though after that being then altered by human selection). As for many of the Trichocereus of Peru I venture to guess that most of them are just variations of the big three of Peru, that being T. pachanoi, T. peruvianus, and T. cuzcoensis; these first two being arguably similar enough to each other, and dissimilar enough from yet others, to be considered the same species or of much closer relation to each other than to others outside of this group.

~Michael~

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am keeping an eye on the dakar rally backgrounds as they travel across sth am.........

was musing on the ecology of a land with thousands of years of continuous plant entheogen use.....

having similar thoughts about anadenanthera as mss is having about trichs..........

t s t .

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just curious if folks are researchng/recprding the specific plants utilised ceremony, and even those which have been selectivly propagated by the indigenous peoples?

just seems it would go hand in hand with the botanising of the species as a whole.

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just curious if folks are researchng/recprding the specific plants utilised ceremony, and even those which have been selectivly propagated by the indigenous peoples?

just seems it would go hand in hand with the botanising of the species as a whole.

Well, regarding the T. pachanoi of Peru and Ecuador I am fairly well convinced that this particular "species" as a whole has its origins from plants selectively propagated for ceremonial use. In that regards I would say T. pachanoi is an ancient "cultivar".

Archaea has also brought up this same issue with T. pachanoi; he is inclined to believe that intentional cross-breeding of selected plants and their intentional seed propagation has given us the species. I've been more inclined towards thinking that selected plants bred without human intervention and produced seedlings which then would be selected for their traits and propagated to further the advance toward the form of plant we know today.

Regarding the T. peruvianus plants of Huarochiri (in which Matucana sits), I've started to think that it is the "wild" progenitor of the T. pachanoi cultivar, but just a wild guess which you can leave up to your imaginations as much as I have mine. :)

Here's one of my favorite shots of plants from Huarochiri.

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~Michael~

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Personally, I'm inclined to believe that anyone who collects cacti for use in ceremonies may do so with a reason. If he or she notices that one particular cacti in his stand is stronger it goes to reason that he might choose to cultivate more of this particular cacti via cuttings. Another might realize that seeds are produced and that seeds are how plants and cacti often reproduce. He or she might be smart enough to figure this out on their own as they might know someone who grows corn, etc. from seed.... Whatever the case might be, selective propagation and or intentionally breeding cacti, I have to believe that there will be one odd ball out of the many that might chose either or both methods to increase their potential and whether that potential is measured in quantity or quality is something that may vary from individual to individual. Some medicine men seem to take pride in their medicines and as such might covet a particular clone more than another. Over time, natural hybrids between these selected clone types could very well happen regardless of intent. Every hybridizer hybridizes what they have available if that is what they like to do. They may not hybridize everything they have available, but they will hybridize what they have available as it is impossible to hybridize with a pollen you do not have. With that said, simply creating a stand of one particular cultivar will affect the genetics of the population surrounding the area given enough time and enough cultivars. I like to think of it this way. If I have 15 Brugmansia to start with and I notice that two are exceptional at making me happy then I will perhaps get rid of the other 13 over time as I might become bored with them. The other two... grown in close proximity are more likely to have seeds that are hybrids of the two simply as they are grown in close proximity to each other. That is not to say a few of the neighbors Brugmansia may not have pollinated mine via moths, etc. Just that it is highly probable that crosses that form do so in larger numbers from those plants that are closest to each other. So, while this may not be intentional hybridizing... growing 15 different clones in a small area increases the odds that you will have hybrids form between them... especially so if they bloom at the same time. Now, with hybrids that bloom at different times of day or different months... you can not rely on nature to do this for you. You must collect, dry, and freeze the pollen yourself for later use. This is why some hybrids are not possible in nature. They are simply too far away to cross naturally via geographic barriers, time constraints, etc. and thus a cross that might be highly unlikely to yield seed in the wild, but nevertheless capable of producing seed is not seen. Simply put, I can see truth in all of these things happening as there are just too many people and too many years involved for one not to have been a collector and another not to have been a hybridizer. It doesn't need to be cultural, just individual in nature. One individual takes pride in his medicine that is substantially stronger or different in a way that is desirable to all and shares this medicine with others. Selectively propagating a plant leads to its selectively altering the gene pool no mater how you dice it. You can call it intentional or unintentional...., but if I never put a single bit of pollen from one cacti to another and I have a field of a single clone of macrogonus all planted in rows where every other cacti is either a pachanoi or a peruvianus for something like the following row... macrogonus... peruvianus.... macrogonus.....pachanoi.... macrogonus....peruvianus....macrogonus....pachanoi.... then if you assumee that I am only utilizing 3 total clones all vegetatively propagated to make these rows that even though I have not set a single seed intentionally... that if any seed should arise from this small clumping of rows that perhaps they might be hybrids between these three clones that were selected for whatever reason they were selected. Resulting wild specimens from seed from these crosses might prove useful in my hunts as well and I might chose to revisit a patch that carries characteristics that excel from those found in my own patch. Thus, I have added a fourth set of genes into my unintentional breeding grounds. I may value this stand I have grown for its potency more than those I find in the wild and thus I utilize those in the wild for healing ceremonies of a larger scale while I utilize those cacti in my personal stand for personal use or perhaps for use with other medicine men only. This depletes the natural gene pool of the wild immediately surrounding my area while increasing the chances that cacti found many years or generations down the road will bear more and more in common with my stand. As my stand becomes larger.... more selection is done as my grandson finds a much stronger cacti in a not to distant area as he has had to travel further and further away to find cacti for the community. He revisits that area and adds another cacti to our sacred grove. I'm not saying this happens, I'm just putting it out there as this is what I would do and I don't consider myself nearly as intelligent as the myriad of people who have come before me. Now, do I tell my friends or researches about my special Culebra or Pachanoi stand? Or do I show them the variety that will still impress them from the local area that I utilize for the common ceremonies?

Edited by Inyan

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Some might not have been bred at all.

Some of these looks pretty like the odd ball at home already.

Matucana_13_c_Grizzly.jpg

Sanpedrostunner2.jpg

There is another possibility; where over harvesting might have wiped the favorites from their natural habitation.

If that is humanly possible, my guess is self sterile cultures could disappear.

Another guess is maybe that short spined or easy to prepare var's would be the first to be harvested, thus the first to come in short. But that raises the question what really they used them for medicine, fruit? And for how long have there been civilization in mutucana judging by the runes and pyramids perhaps?

It looks like those are growing up against human structures so selection and farming is not entirely out of the question unless it was just scattering.

The ease of harvesting fruit. It could be a bitch getting fruit from some of those. So the easy picker's seed would also have a better chance of getting scattered by humans.

If the seed survives human digestion we might be looking at popular ancient dumping sites. Hehehehe!!

And of course attractiveness, tricho flowers aint the dullest in the universe. I could imagine it to be a desirable dressing to rune walls and certain ancient sites even if those are really old. I don't think the human habit of dressing and gardening is a new one and the ancients from those areas have shown themselves by their hieroglyphs as lovers of jewelry, decoration etc.

Edited by George

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I don't see how ancient Andean peoples could be that different from us today.

Little boys would ask their granny why we don't pick the ones high in the mountains,too far to travel.

Pick the ones growing on the ravines,too dangerous.

Pick the ones with long spines,too much trouble.

Pick the ones grown for export,stealing!

Granny can we eat the skin and wood too?

You can if you want to.

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Nice specimens George. And valid points to you Garbage and George. I guess my long winded approach to this whole matter is more simply stated as: Wherever you have people or people interested in a cacti... that very interest or even lack of interest in the area will often directly or inadvertently affect what is there. My personal preference is for little to no spines when it comes to grafting or sacraments. For pure aesthetics though, I'd love to see red spines and a lavender 12 inch wide flower with hints or rose at the edges with the strength of ten horses.

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Sure, people do plant what they like or harvest from stands they like preferentially. Many times though a family harvests from a given stand that their family has always harvested from. These tend to be sustainably done with a focus on new growth harvests only.

Interestingly while the occasional plants are regularly planted from cuttings here and there we have not found any evidence at all of any large scale plantings outside of hedges. Including the short spined ones.

In some cases this selective harvesting has entirely wiped out entire populations.

Its sort of funny though, one regular feature comes up when friends (Grizzly and others) have asked Peruvians why they use one or the other of what they have locally.

The answer invariably is something like "We use this one instead of that one because it is much easier to handle."

The really spiny ones are avoided simply for virtue of being really spiny. I doubt anyone has looked into whether the chemistry vindicates this choice.

There is presently a group of 5 of us who are cooperatively looking into this subject based entirely on field work with at least one trip a year being planned. I'll keep posting whatever any of us learn.

Edited by trucha

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All of these can be quite variable.

Its almost pointless to base any conclusions on sterile morphology.

Fruit and or flower will tell the tale.

If someone DOES find that whitish-wooly fruited san pedro please let me know.

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No they eat mainly Opuntias but they value many of the trichs greatly for their fruit.

This stimulates deliberate planting way more than any other uses.

Interestingly, a few years back Carlos Ostolaza told me that in the Lima area trichocereus are being destroyed to make way for planting Opuntias.

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People eat a lot of Opuntia pads as well as fruit. Its also used medicinally internally and externally.

I don't think it was for animal food but Opuntia certainly can work for some animals like cows. (With some provisos)

On those photos, could be, no real way to know without us seeing flowers and fruit of them both (or DNA)

Its a gorgeous plant though. I'd love to see what it looks like at 6-8 feet or larger.

Edited by trucha

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I put those images on a single page to aid in easier viewing

http://www.largelyaccurateinformationmedia.com/Matucana.html

Another page with a number of cacti collected from above Matucana by someone who is unconnected to Grizzly or to Knize:

http://www.largelyaccurateinformationmedia...vian_cacti.html

ignore the two nontrichs with regards to that.

The phrase "above matucana" is puzzling to some people.

The town of Matucana is in a valley with mountains around it. People farm in irrigated terraces on the mountain slopes. The peruvianus are growing around, in between and above those fields.

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