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mutant

Future plans about private ethnogarden

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A smallish but varied [in morphology] piece of land happens to be owned by a close friend of mine interested in rare and ethno plants, like myself for that matter... and , like Teotz , heh, makes some future plans for his plants. You will see he is more humble, though :) I might plant some of my plants there as well. I am sure most of you get the idea. I live in a sunny and moderate climate and I would love to put my plants to soil, in a natural spot, where they belong after all.

The land has both flatways but also a steep gully going downwards [humidity indication]. There are plenty of shady spots as well. Many trees, wild vines etc.

Now , the questions...

there are some spots with pines and cypresses... I think that soil with pineneedles floor is supposed to be very acidic, or am I wrong?? Now are there any plants that could make it such a soil ? any No-Nos? What about cacti, trichocereus but also other cactus genuses ?? there is also a very sunny and dry spot with poor soil with inclination. Apart from cacti and succulents, what bigger plant could we consider? Like Acacias for example??

What about the shady and humidity rich spots? ... apart from salvia, which I already plan, what about any other interesting plants, like novo? It does like wet humid spots, no? Well we dont have a novo yet, but I hear it's around... I suppose also diplopterys sp., caapi, psycotria viridis also like humid places, even if they're not too sunny the climbers will eventually reach it anyways], no? there are also some occasion smaller gullys and streams in some spots..

To just grasp a little bit of our enthusiasm, I believe that this gully might be an ideal ecosystem for some plants.. plus offers some coverage... I believe there could be an argyreia junge down the gully :) And now that I figured out more or less how to propagate argyreia by cuts, it will HAVE to be interesting...

There is another thing. I already said the flatways give way to steep parts. There is a certain spot where there is a narrow path and there's corrosion... What type of tree could help hold the soil??? [because it's obvious that in several years from now, it will eventually corrode completely cutting off the path ,literally cutting the land in half...

Me and my friend are waiting for your comments :)

PS: This is not a 'lets go do it tomorow' plan... it's already a jungle there.. lots of job to be done there this winter before any planting takes place. No hurrys in replies ;)

Thank you all for the help and for inspiration ! :)

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A picture speaks a thousand words.

Don't chop down the trees just yet.

Does the gully get flash flooding?

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Id fill it with trichos, lots and lots of trichos. Then, id go and get some more trichos and put them in there also. After some time a few more trichos would have to be added. :D

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Here's My List for you...

Banisteriopsis caapi ~ “Vine of the Souls” or “Ayahuasca”

Psychotria viridis ~ “Chacruna”

Salvia Divinorum ~ "Pipilzintzintli"

Trichocereus spp. ~ “San Pedro”

Rivea corymbosa ~ “Ololiuqui” and/or Argyreia nervosa ~ “Woodrose”

Erythroxylum spp. ~ “Coca Leaf”

Nicotiana spp. ~ “Tobacco”

Mitragyna speciosa ~ “Kratom”

Silene capensis ~ “Root of the White Ways”

Calea zacatechichi ~ “Bitter Dream Herb”

Catha edulis ~ “Khat”

Some may have to be indoor/outdoor...

Get some lifestock and food crops going too. Peppers and fruit-plants are always great!

Part of the idea at least for me is to be self-sufficent in my entheogenic needs, so I'd chose potent clones. Potent clones also save space.

You gotta def. think about stuff like how what you plant effects the land and how your going to create good compost, etc. I'd go all organic as well.

Edited by Teotz'

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iboga might go well there

a.colubrina

virola :wub: now that'd be wild

also put in things like pinto peanut to help improve soil

might be an idea to have differing areas, such as a arid area, tropical etc this would let you concentrate on impproving soil for the plants, and of course once there established you can then propagate and spread aroudn other areas if you wanted.

Great idea you've got sure your not alone

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your opening post say's something like, "dry spot, poor soil, cacti naturaly" and i don't agree, meaning pedros will not like poor and dry soil, but sure they will survive, and maybe because they would grow slower at this spot, than at the other locations you planted your pedros in, might produce more actives per weight.

anyway sure it's a good idea to think which plants will like a particular aspects more than others, but to predict exactly what will happen is impossible! the best way is to probagate always a few individuals up and than plant them out on different locations, and than just wait and see what happens. in nature only a few seedlings find ideal conditions and will thrive, well be prepared for something similar to happen once you plant out your individual plants.

mitragyna = lot's of water.

viridis = lot's of water.

caapi = lot's of water but can stand some dry periodes once old and established.

catha = drought hardy, once established, free drainage aspect.

novo = little water.

mimosas/ colubrina = little water, good in disturbed or poor soil, very drought hardy.

rainforrest plants like above like slightly acid soil.

but cacti like slightly alakaline soil,

and i would give the pedros the best aspect, meaning, rich deep, very friable soil, moist spot, but with some drainage.

naturaly spots which stay wet after rain for a while have to be avoided for cacti, but those spots could be good for kratom.

Edited by planthelper

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Thanks a lot for quick and willing replys! :)

A picture speaks a thousand words.

Don't chop down the trees just yet.

Does the gully get flash flooding?

No single pic can describe this... and my friend doesn't want to to post photos of it. it's an uneven piece of earth, but also has its flatways. We will not chop but the necessery shrubs and/or trees while we plan ahead. We plan not destroying anything, just taming wilderness a bit, so as to make space for 'new' species, our garden :)

No not flash flooding... the gully and the whole uneven part of land is kind of individual and unrelated, humidity-wise with the main flatland [about 800 m^2 and a couple of other flatlands [300+500 m^2]. The land is in the foothill of a large local mountain, at 300m altitude. The main gully is old and natural, and is actually one of the borders of the land. Smaller gullies and streams [all ending own at the main gully at the lower, steepest and less accessible part of the land] seemed to be more active in the old days than now, but are still natural ways of streaming water and rainfall ;)

humid ? in Greece ???!!!

heh, south greece, too :) In the north, there's frost alright ;)

I hope above comments of mine are more detailed - also, by humid/shady spote I was refering to spots that due to mophlogical reasons and also because they are rather shady can hold humidy a lot more, I think... Practice, no theory will tell, anyways, but there will be also watering taking place, mind you... Greece is no tropical place I know, on the contrary, it gets very very dry here... and this is only getting worse year by year... [another discussion though...]

PD. >> yeah trichos are surely in our agenda ;) Do people have any general tips for different, more unknown trichos like wendermanianus and terscheckii requirements as apposed to the more known fast growing Trichos like peru + pacha? T.bridgesii is also supposed to be a bit slower grower and less water tolerant, no? { I have already witnessed a bridge growing very fast, but anyway]

Teotz, thanks for the generous listing you offer... This was actually a thread about what certain plants like, so as to pick spots for each and plan ahead what we might do. Sure plants will be propagated and then experimentally placed in decided spot, not all are expected to thrive or even live :) , we are not so ambitious. My questions have a bit the sense of minimising the loss ;)

Plants that can only make it inside are kind of 'excluded' from this discussion, because this is about free-root-run plants... Actually this is salvias last resort in greece, as it's fucking frustrating to grow Salvia in such a dry climate [atmosphere dry, I mean]... It has been suggested to me, that outdoor cultivation might be 'the solution' for my area, but still, the elevation is not enough in said spot, hence the humid and shady spots ;)

Also, sure such a garden would satisfy an individual's 'entheogenic needs' but this is only a tiny fraction of what we have in mind. 'Preservation' or 'research' are terms so commonly used, so I won't go into it, but I also like to think I will be able to provide [in the years to come] to people we approve and feel for their approach the potential to create their own saga. I like the idea we might be able to help boost certain individuals inclination for growing, research, search for truth .... anyways... Stocking for own use is quite easy if you ask me.

And sure, food and spice herbs are sure part of friend's plan. He plans to make his house there also! Maybe even be self-sufficient in half of his needs ! :)

Salvia is very easy to grow, if it is where it loves to be, but hey, try to grow salvias during greece's dry as fuck summer!!! Now this is a challenge! And this is about Salvia divinorum, not the dry tollerant Salvias that would thrive here [there are many native/naturalised salvias in Greece anyway, as well as wild Salvia Officinalis [ nothing like the cultivated stuff ;) , also perfect culinary]

iboga might go well there

a.colubrina

virola wub.gif now that'd be wild

also put in things like pinto peanut to help improve soil

might be an idea to have differing areas, such as a arid area, tropical etc this would let you concentrate on impproving soil for the plants, and of course once there established you can then propagate and spread aroudn other areas if you wanted.

Great idea you've got sure your not alone

Nice point. I feel african plants wouls do fine here. [iboga] Still , stoneplants puzzle me and I have yet to study further :):P

You seem to have something in your mind, spacemonk, but this didn't actually 'pass' to me. Please explain a bit more this

might be an idea to have differing areas, such as a arid area, tropical etc this would let you concentrate on impproving soil for the plants, and of course once there established you can then propagate and spread aroudn other areas if you wanted.

will check that funky peanut you mentioned ;)

Which reminded me of Desmanthus, and it's ability to make nitrogen, if I am not mistaking...

Is it true that Desmanthus, as well as Peganum, I think, are best sowed late in spring or early summer??? I got some minor indications for this, and this would explain my relative failure with these plants [my peganums that made it , vegetated quite by mistake in 'failed' harmala sowings pots that had other plants in. The latest popped some weeks ago in a pot where a myrti was transplanted ....

plantshelper >

Well some good fellow of mine has educated me in pachanois fast frowing scheme, and every fast growing tricho for that matter. Pedros are sure to go first in spots with lots of sun and water. But I do want to help him make a 'cactus garden' and this might include slow growing species like Astrophytum and Lophophoras in soil - remember we have a somewhat considerable amount of rainfall only in automn and winter, so a dry slope might help to such a thing.

So yes, you got a point :)

but I was thinking of the most slow growing species for this particular area... What about a terscheckii? like, the central cactus of that cactigarden spot

[look forward to 20 years from now ;) ]

Thanks for the tip on caappi [thats the type of info I am looking for ;)] , not absolute truths or recipees of success, only hint's'n'tips of what could be propable...

acacias and anadenatheras seem also ideal. is it also better to sow them late as with //earlier desmanthus/peganum// arguement?

Now that I think of it, I had success with mimosa pudica, also sown in moderate pot late in spring

plantshelper, thanks a lot man, your replies always educate me :) [not to underestimate others, though!]

Sorry for my ranting,

I thank you all

and hopefully I will be here around in some 3 [?} years to symbolically pay back to this wonderful community something. I simply cannot find a better forum than this for my current pathway and research, and if someone know something [a forum] that might suit me, please make suggestions :)

Edited by mutant

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Maybe some trichos? :P

But seriously... some olives? :slap:

I live in a mediterranean climate 400mm rainfall per year if lucky (long drought atm), flat land shallow sand over clay, lots of wind and very hot from Dec to March and dry from October to April. Pretty much the only ethnos I can grow outside in the ground are cacti and acacias and australian bush-tucker plants (not psychoactive). Olives grow as weeds so you get an idea might be similar to Greece. Carob likes it here too. Your situation sounds better than mine. I have tried a.columbrina outside - not dead yet but looking very roungh, but I would definately give that a go. Also datura - again, very rough outside but a possibility. Syrian rue would have to be a winner, isn't it from around those parts originally. I have no shelter, and with shelter your options will increase I imagine. I would be VERY wary planting acacias however. Anything you plant should be considered for its risk of spreading into adjacent areas. Acacias could be potential weeds in ten or twenty years time, and as much as I would like some revenge on the Greeks for ever bringing the FUCKING olive tree to Australia i think it is something to consider. As far as cacti go, while they grow much slower, tersheckii is probably the most drought, cold, water (inundation and drought) tolerant species of trichocereus IMO. As ph says those trichos will appreciate good soil and look pretty unhappy in bad soil (but survive) at least until they have spread out there roots which could take years. Good luck man it sounds like a fantasitically fun enthnobotanical adventure.

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Acacias dude gotta get some of them.

Poppies should do well, somni, prickly, cali

Datura & maybe brugs.

Desmanthus would do alright I imagine.

Lophs too.

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Do they actually use Wattles for anti-erosion purposes?

Existing trees could be topiarised or even bonsaid,take a look for "giant bonsai".

Frankincense and Myrrh perhaps?

Several Caudiciforms may enjoy a free rootrun,does it ever get frosty?

Ease of access to water would seem to be a vital requirement,maybe a small dam or dig a pond?

Edited by Garbage

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and very hot from Dec to March and dry from October to April.

that doesn't sound like my idea of mediterranean :) we get hot and dry simultaneously mid May till mid Sep

there 3 or 4 olives in the land, abandoned for years

No no amanita with these pines... I always have found them with plain Abies cephalonica forest or mixed Abies forest above 800 in my area , even though I know it occurs in pine forests here, but only in high altitudes, as far as I know.

Crocus sp [saffron] would do just fine. They occur in great numbers wild here.

Do they actually use Wattles for anti-erosion purposes?

wattles?? I was thinking of some tree..!?!

Frankincense sounds interesting, especially if christianity banned it ;)

Several Caudiciforms may enjoy a free rootrun,does it ever get frosty?

nice tip! :) It seldom gets frosty, even though it could be a bit more in 300m [the said land]

Ease of access to water would seem to be a vital requirement,maybe a small dam or dig a pond?

yeah there's irragation pipe alright, no problem with that ... :)

Daturas grow as a weed here, especially near cultivation sites. Brugmansias also do well, but they get a bit ugly when attacked my spidermite or other pests, but they are hardy and sure survive. Their semi-evergreen character propably helps with this.

I would be VERY wary planting acacias however. Anything you plant should be considered for its risk of spreading into adjacent areas. Acacias could be potential weeds in ten or twenty years time, and as much as I would like some revenge on the Greeks for ever bringing the FUCKING olive tree to Australia i think it is something to consider.

Nice you note this. I have also gave thought to this... Do people crop olives in australia? Anyways, I suspect the australias problem with ouside plants has mostly to do with its isolation. I don't think Acactias would be too agressive here, so as to attack current ecosystem, but sure, the most dry-hardy of them coul;d get out of control . Many acacias are cultivated as ornamentals here, and I have read some species might act as weeds in mediterranean climate...

What Acacias would one suggest as ethno plants??

thanks also for the terschecki tip. I feel very .. 'something' for this cactus.... would love to have a huge speciman in 20 years time to see :)

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that doesn't sound like my idea of mediterranean :) we get hot and dry simultaneously mid May till mid Sep

You're in the Northern hemisphere you have to reverse the seasons. May to Sept is winter and the beginning of spring in Oz, summer in Greece.

wattles?? I was thinking of some tree..!?!

Acacias are known as wattles in Australia

Daturas grow as a weed here, especially near cultivation sites.

Daturas will also have the ability to escape as a weed tho not very much liked by birds i think so mostly from water or budding (grabbing a ride) on something like a shoe or tyre, garden rubbish.

Nice you note this. I have also gave thought to this... Do people crop olives in australia? Anyways, I suspect the australias problem with ouside plants has mostly to do with its isolation. I don't think Acactias would be too agressive here, so as to attack current ecosystem, but sure, the most dry-hardy of them coul;d get out of control . Many acacias are cultivated as ornamentals here, and I have read some species might act as weeds in mediterranean climate...

Olives are a huge crop in Australia, esp. south Australia and are one of the worst environmental weeds in SA. Migrants from the mediterranean in the 30s and then 50s decided they'd like a bit of home and planted huge olive crops. Birds love olives. Unfortunately the olives were often planted in the most biodiverse areas and today olives have invaded conservation areas, choked watercourses, out-competed native plants and favoured introduced birds. They are a very serious ecological problem here i would even say an outright disaster and almost impossible to remove. Interestingly, seedling recruitment of olives in the meditteranean is low because farmers shot the birds that ate the seeds, almost to extinction. Australia has been susceptible to invasive plants and animals for a number of reasons, especially the fact that is has developed a very unique ecosystem that is quite fragile and specialised compared to those in europe. That being said, acacias do have considerable invasive threat; in many parts of Australia acacias from other states have become widespread as weeds. One of the plants of interest atm, A.acuminata, for example may have weedy potential (not sur tho really) becuase of its hardiness (but i admit i planted some outside of their historical range). You need only look at the global colonisation by eucalypts to see that Australian plants can hold their own when it comes to invading foreign backyards!

What Acacias would one suggest as ethno plants??

I'd have a look in the australian natives section of this forum. There are many interesting acacias chemically speaking, and some others that have been used as food plants for seeds. I would probably plant some but keep in mind the potential and take action as soon as any self-seeding was observed, though this is still risky.

thanks also for the terschecki tip. I feel very .. 'something' for this cactus.... would love to have a huge speciman in 20 years time to see :)

Yeah tersheckii are beautiful and wise B)

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I got my friend to take some photos...

Here is a certain spot that used to be grasy before it turnt really wild, before and after , a small flatland

th_DSCN3767.jpgth_DSCN3773.jpg

And here is the main flatland area and it's view

th_DSCN3764.jpg

Edited by mutant

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Wish it were me,i could get used to the idyllic lifestyle.

My view consists of town planners micromanaged insanity.

Looks great for grapes,poppies and hashish.

The parched wilderness area i would use a strimmer on protecting the trees trunks from damage.

Once the weeds are down stock can be taken of the trees and plants,keeping a lawn is probably too time consuming but making a feature of the trees is as simple as loosening the soil in a circle about the bole and in so doing bringing them out of hiding and into cultivation.

Maybe even adding some stone about the biggest.

Too much land really,unless a genius has ideas about how to landscape only with ethnobotanicals you may need to diversify.

I would run a metal detector over the ntire site and also field walk for pottery sherds which suggest archaeological features,maybe tresures.

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Also the erosive slopes could be stabilised with Agave,i'm guessing they are South west facing so they would be pretty dry for many plants.

Trouble is keeping them alive until they are big enough to impede gravitational forces and the soil

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I suspect many dessert chaparral plants would also thrive,Pinion Pine,Mesquite,Creosote Bush,Ocotillo.

Saguaro and Giant Barrels are also a possibility,Tenerife Cactus park have them,the climate you have pictured and the brush looks similar.

Talking of brush you may find Australian Bottle Brush do well.

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Thanks for infos and tips, always food for thought ;)

Don't get this wrong: the guy is not planning to accumulate all ethnos in the spot, especially in the big flatland. If we are talking about the future he plans to make his home in the flat area, till then a house trailer is going to be placed there with pergkola kai vines for shade... vines for fences etc. Also, in the main area food plants are going to be planted as well various useful plants, as well as ornamentals. People cultivate tomatos, pies, as well as lettuce and other spring-summer-winter plants with great success commercially here... all year round.. outside :)

The plantation you see in the pic is the last cabbage of some guy that has used the land some some years now.... last because my friend is now taking over the land. it's a nice spot, because it also has a slight slope... there used to be grape cultivation in these site in the old times, and people do grow them around the place...

There is plenty for space and different spots for almost everything. Thanks for the agave tip. Amazing photo of that slope and massive flowering of many agaves in the same time :) , thanks for sharing . Also daphne might be good for corrosion.

We have been clearing up the spot where the cacti garden is to be made, and it's a more open spot where a better photo can be taken, maybe show a bit of the big steep gully. Great spot!! :) I really want to give attention not to disrupt harmony, but hey, it's really easy, it's a jungle there ;) lots of job need to be done so as to lear a small spot...

I am thinking of using flat stones for creating pathways around new plants blocking the weeds... sespecially in the weediest spots more deep in the gully... but yeah it's gonna be hard to control... but hey, it doesn't mind me having a couple of my trichos growing there ;)

Edited by mutant

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I wish you well with your endeavour,i'm leaving as the moderators behave as tyrants.

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I wish you well with your endeavour,i'm leaving as the moderators behave as tyrants.

thank you , but stay :)

mauve, sure ;)

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Banisteriopsis caapi ~ “Vine of the Souls” or “Ayahuasca”

Psychotria viridis ~ “Chacruna”

Salvia Divinorum ~ "Pipilzintzintli"

Trichocereus spp. ~ “San Pedro”

Rivea corymbosa ~ “Ololiuqui” and/or Argyreia nervosa ~ “Woodrose”

Erythroxylum spp. ~ “Coca Leaf”

Nicotiana spp. ~ “Tobacco”

Mitragyna speciosa ~ “Kratom”

Silene capensis ~ “Root of the White Ways”

Calea zacatechichi ~ “Bitter Dream Herb”

Catha edulis ~ “Khat”

Psychotria viridis I think that is very difficult to grow in Greece.

S. divinorum needs a greenhouse

Erythroxylum is out of the question to grow

Nicotiana will destroy the place because the second year the place will be filled with this plant

As for khat I think that it's a bit difficult to grow.

Additions to your garden are :

Peganum harmala

Naga jolokia [the hottest chili in the world]

mandragora autumnalis (works better in greece than M.officinalis) [if you search you can find seeds, but I'll give you next year if mine will give me some]

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