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Acacia phlebophylla research

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Hey Darklight,

Can not help much with the TC, however bright red foliage as shown in pics is not thought to be that unusual.

Toxicity after planting out into soil could have a number or combination of sources, I don’t want to be patronizing to you as I’m sure you have your own experiences with exotics and natives, so I’ll just tell you what little I know and you might get something out of that.

Water - as an alpine species it is unlikely to have had exposure to anything other than the purest rain water, Chlorine and Fluorides are usually only co-conspirators in the demise of your plants, install a rainwater tank and use only rainwater if you can, but this is an expensive and time consuming experiment.

Fertilizer - Some growers recommend NOT feeding natives at all, mountain soils can be naturally deficient in nutrients as these are readily leached out of the soil by the more substantial rainfalls. Phosphorous in particular, in standard fertilizers for garden plants has been known to be too high in concentration for some natives causing toxic reactions.

If you have used commercial charcoal, then it too could be high in phosphorous and other elements, depending on what kind of timber the charcoal was made from.

Soil - If you have used commercial potting mixes of any type whatsoever then it is possible that this plant is susceptible to toxic chemicals from pine bark as many native plants are, pine bark is the basis of almost all commercial potting mixes. Pine bark resin chemicals are known to be deadly toxic to some native plants and often take many years to leach out.

The toxicity of pine bark has recently become THE major suspect for the demise of many of my failed plants, I had serious toxicity problems with some native and exotic orchids for many years, then had a complete turn around when I stopped potting up with premium grade orchid mix (based on pine bark) and replaced this with soils built up from local materials, I now feel ready to retry many formerly failed seed germination experiments.

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JumpedAngel:

install a rainwater tank and use only rainwater if you can, but this is an expensive and time consuming experiment.

I have one already, and then run it through a reasonable purity water filter.

Phosphorous in particular, in standard fertilizers for garden plants has been known to be too high in concentration for some natives causing toxic reactions.

Media trials have used media with normal phosphate levels, with phosphate levels reduced to 1/3, and to nil. No significant differences noted. I haven't written about these before because they predate us throwing the project open for public comment, and that body of work will take a while to compile and post

If you have used commercial charcoal, then it too could be high in phosphorous and other elements, depending on what kind of timber the charcoal was made from.

It'd be AR grade charcoal if I was, but I'm not using any. Thanks for that tho, its an interesting point to remember for future TC projects

Thanks for the prompt response, together we'll think of something I'm sure- and best of luck with your seed germination retrials :)

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The red foliage is quite common in new growth of plants. It is to protect against the more stupid herbivores who can only see green as food.

If the seed germinates after fires might the opaline silica be dissolved by the potassium oxide in the ashes? Forming the soluble potassium silicate?

Where is this page you have set up, or haven't you yet?

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theobromos:

Where is this page you have set up, or haven't you yet?

Haven't yet, sorry. It's on the to-do list, but its kinda on the back burner atm, which is why I'm sharing research processes here as they occur
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Ah, what happened was that someone else locally did some very cool research finding good levels of similar actives in other, easier to propagate local Acacia species. This took much of the population pressure off wrt harvesting as the other species became known, and research continues into finding new active species

I haven't done any TC work on phlebs for years now. But I wasn't aware that too many plants in private collections had survived long enough to set seed. Is there something I'm missing?

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Hey it's possible I'm wrong too :D

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For the next round of obtuses I am growing, I am going to be using 80% sand, and 20% of the soil from around the bottom of obtuses.

...

I have two phlebs growing which are about nine months old...I have about 200 seeds left and would only grow them in ideal conditions...

So you take obtuses from the wild with their bottom soil or only the soil? It's no problem because they are not endangered, but for me it seems unnecessary... however

My second question: From where do the 200 phlebo-seeds stem from? I don't think they are from cultivated plants, but also from the wild.

...I think its no problem to take A FEW seeds from the wild for cultivating a rare species to preserve it.

If someone takes 200 seeds, it does not really help the species to survive, except if the seeds were taken for reforestations.

You want to grow them in ideal conditions near Mt. Buffalo? ...on a separate area and only for harvest?

After all, your 200 seeds are getting old and may lose their germination ability... however

There are much more reasonable projects, like the TC- cultivation for returning it into the wild and let them grow.

By the way: If there are more wild plants, its also possible to collect more fallen off leaves, which must be sufficient for small scale use.

But of course there are always humans who want to get more and more...

...some do have the idealism and take responsibility for nature, others only want to make more and more out of it and put this under the pretext of idealism with allegations like "I gave it to other people"...

To be a bit non-serious: The areas of phlebs in the wild should be surrounded with Ongaongas (Urtica ferox) to save them from egocentric greedy people...

Edited by mindperformer

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The phleb had a flush of flowers this past June(mid spring),then another flush of flowers in October(early fall). Fifty or so flower rods. We're coming up on February,which is about the time the flowers from the previous year bloomed. This is also about the time the extra-floral nectaries start to do their thing,which draws in the ants,which I assume are the only available pollinators within the GH.

The flowers are tiny,any tips on pollinating manually?

I'm going to give a go regardless. It's frustrating to see all the flowers and potential seed just wither away.

I'm still learning how to operate a greenhouse properly,I swear the phleb believes it's in the southern hemisphere.

Edited by spunwhirllin
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wow, so you will get your own seeds, gratulations! Good to know that this species gets more established.

I can't help you with pollination tips, I only know that Acacia flowers are usually bisexual (male and female parts in the same flower), so the ants should do the job.

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Mindperformer, I got Spunwhirllin his seeds many years ago, as well as many others, and many other people recently. They were wild harvested. I'm proud of allowing this kind of propagation to occur.

Maybe the amount of seeds I collected constitute the total amount of seeds that one or two trees would produce out of many thousands. (btw, they are viable for many decades, if not a hundred years, so I am told) Also, there are very, very few, small Acacias coming up at the moment. They seem to need a fire to really get germinated.

In this case I feel that intelligent propagation can only be of benefit to extending the seed bank of this most valuable tree.

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It would be ok, if all of the hundreds seeds were planted soon in conservation programs, ideally working also with in vitro culture. Tere are too many noobs to share this seeds wit everyone, only a few of us are able to grow this species.

I think there are very very few coming out of the seeds because of long storage?

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I envy Mindperformers euro-theoetical wonderland! :wub:

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Which wonderland is that? The guy has a point, I feel this species really needs to be distributed to those, not necessarily with the know how, but the can do. The know how can be taught from those distributing the seed, but not many people actually live in a climate permitting a solid growth cycle for the plant.

I feel I live in a nice micro climate for this plant but haven't been able to beg, borrow or steal a viable source of seed to try. The last lot I got, the trader Pmd me a week after saying he'd been duped and just found out...

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try to get in contact with the students, in this country, there is a, good, seed producing phleb, growing in one, of university grounds, guess which uni, hehehe.

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Well,as predicted the flowers are blooming,however somewhere someone posted an article mentioning that the Acacia flowers are;

pro·to·gy·nous[proh-tuh-jahy-nuhthinsp.pngthinsp.pngs, -gahy-, proh-toj-uh-nuhthinsp.pngthinsp.pngs] Show IPA
adjective Botany .
of or pertaining to a flower in which the shedding of pollen occurs after the stigma has stopped being receptive; having female sex organs maturing before the male.
Also, proterogynous.
So I suspect I'll be pollinating manually. The rods that emerged last spring are in bloom,while the rods that emerged this past fall are almost to the point of blooming.
I've got my tiny paint brush and am ready to go. It's disturbing how little information there is regarding manual Acacia pollination,
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Hope you don't mind the further post's in your thread Darklight.

Here's a couple of pictures of what I'm trying to pollinate while precariously perched atop a six foot ladder with an ocean of spiny Trichocereus below me :blush:

Anyway, The plan is to try to persuade some mature pollen into some freshly opened flowers that are hopefully still receptive to pollen. The way the flowers sporadically open on each rod will afford me at least an opportunity to give it a go.

post-230-0-89814500-1360770198_thumb.jpg

post-230-0-04083700-1360770240_thumb.jpg

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Hope you don't mind the further post's in your thread Darklight.

It's not my thread, it's everyone's thread :)

Here's a couple of pictures of what I'm trying to pollinate while precariously perched atop a six foot ladder with an ocean of spiny Trichocereus below me :blush:

I'm getting good visuals off this, we could make a movie. Die Hard With Acacia. Only we'll need explosions, and I don't want any explosions near you. Stunt double?

I'm really happy you've got yours flowering and very much appreciate you keeping us up to date on progress. Best of luck with the pollination!

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Wow, I couldn't get these past sprouts. Top work spun! Haven't read all posts on the raising phleb thread but figure must be some good tips on there by now?

Thanks for interesting posts :)

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Sorry to hash up an old topic. 

I'm trying to germinate some phelbo seeds, and have gone with boiling water scarification. 

I've gone with a basis soil mix with some diatomite / zeolite mixed in; with mycorrhizal blend watered through. However, I'm wondering if germinating this time of year is too hot. Any tips 8 years on?

(I've read through herbalistics, some good info) - wondering if anyone has info that has improved results.

 

Thank you

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This is a good question. 

I tried Herbalistics boiling water/refrigeration for several months/germinated slowly over several further months in humidity tent. From memory, this process yielded about 8 from 12 seeds, which is a good rate for this species. But I think this whole process I started in autumn, and took best part of a year. 

Next year I did the same thing again, but this time the process was started in summer from fresh seed from same grower/supplier. This time, the seeds germinated much more quickly in the fridge (previously they hadn't even begun to germinate before I put them out in the greenhouse). But, on the whole, this new batch of seedlings seemed both scarcer and weaker. At least one died off in early stages, and the few that have germinated (so far) seem a bit sickly compared with last year's batch. 

That's my experience, just this year and the last. 

 

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21 hours ago, fyzygy said:

This is a good question. 

I tried Herbalistics boiling water/refrigeration for several months/germinated slowly over several further months in humidity tent. From memory, this process yielded about 8 from 12 seeds, which is a good rate for this species. But I think this whole process I started in autumn, and took best part of a year. 

Next year I did the same thing again, but this time the process was started in summer from fresh seed from same grower/supplier. This time, the seeds germinated much more quickly in the fridge (previously they hadn't even begun to germinate before I put them out in the greenhouse). But, on the whole, this new batch of seedlings seemed both scarcer and weaker. At least one died off in early stages, and the few that have germinated (so far) seem a bit sickly compared with last year's batch. 

That's my experience, just this year and the last. 

 

Thanks for your reply fyzgy.

Typically how long did it take to see germination? (Did you just keep in the fridge until you saw germination?)

Also curious as to your soil mix? are they really as fussy as the internet says? or just slightly more difficult than your average acacia (i.e. acuminata) 

 

Thanks!

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Another great question. 

Last year's batch (same seller) they were boiled/refrigerated for several months with nothing happening. After a few months, I planted out in humidity tent, regardless. 8/12 successful germinations.

Next year's (this year's) batch: sprouted tails in the fridge in a matter of weeks (this seed bought December, rather than say Feb). When transplanted, not much activity at all. A few germinations with sickly appearance. One died off. etc. But expect father germinations come spring?

My theory is, the summer sun is too hot for germinated seedlings. Best to leave in fridge until (next) spring time. 

That said, these are 2 different batches of seed (albeit from same seller), just my observations. I've got one beauty (alone) to back me up.

Edited by fyzygy
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