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sharxx101

Loph ID's please

Question

Hi all I have come across some pics of some very nice size lophs and I am wondering if they are just regular williamsii.

Are all williamsii that have many pups the var caespitosa variety? Could normal Williamsii have many pups aswell at a mature age? also if they are grown from cuttings as they are a clone of their mother will they tend to pup earlier? Dont all lophs when they reach a mature age pup, some more than others? Dont most seed grown loph's stay solitary untill they are over the 10 years of age? Please check out these photos and tell me what you think.

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp163/s...01/IMG_6987.jpg 15cm diameter over 15 years old

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp163/s...01/IMG_6992.jpg 5.5cm is diameter not sure how old

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Both are gorgeous, very healthy L. williamsii v. caespitosa :drool2:

Are all williamsii that have many pups the var caespitosa variety?

Generally, yes. The easiest way to tell standard williamsii and caespitosa is that caespitosa will pup pretty profusely even when less than 5 years (seed grown, non grafted). Regular williamsii tend to stay solitary until 5-10 years in the same conditions before throwing off a pup or two. Caespitosa generally get a sort of 'carpet of pups' look about them whereas willies just look like average peyote buttons. Caespitosa also continue to throw buttons off buttons, pretty much constantly putting effort into pupping instead of plumping up each button, so they often have a smaller look about them (at least IMO).

Could normal Williamsii have many pups aswell at a mature age?

They usually tend to only have a small clump of buttons, all with fairly similar sized heads (apart from the central, oldest one). Its easiest described with a pic, so check out the photos of L. williamsii in this thread. The central willie is caespitosa, the others are standard williamsii (note the different forms). Also, a lot of regular williamsii can stay solitary for life, only passing on seed (if pollinated), not pups.

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Could normal Williamsii have many pups aswell at a mature age?

Yes, I believe so.

I'd say yours are Lophophora williamsii var. caespitosa, but I can't say for sure.

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caesposita lophs also develop fairly small heads, dont get very fluffy and ive found them reluctant to flower. They both look like caespitosa

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Thanks for the ID guys.

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pfft

Edited by zelly

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Its been my experience that there are two distinct forms of caespitosa lw, one of a larger headed size & one of a smaller headed size. The larger headed variety flowers & produces viable seeds, to date the smaller headed variety hasn't flowered, and some are quite large in 15 cm pots. (own roots never grafted.)

Did you have any pics to illustrate this zelly? I can't say I've ever really noticed much difference between caespitosa willies. Your certain it isnt just an environmental thing between plants (e.g. potting mix, light, nutes, age, etc)?

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pfft

Edited by zelly

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Did you have any pics to illustrate this zelly? I can't say I've ever really noticed much difference between caespitosa willies. Your certain it isnt just an environmental thing between plants (e.g. potting mix, light, nutes, age, etc)?

It seems that maybe Teo has experienced something somewhat similar?

I'll take some pix & put them up tomorrow. As for environmental aspects, same mix, nutes, lighting (sun) & relative age.

The larger sized caes model will always have at least one head that is woolly or heading in that direction, whereas the smaller sized caes model has yet to produce noticeable wool on any head or aerole.

The largest head on a small sized caes is around 3 cm, much smaller than the largest head of the larger sized caes, which in some cases is 9-10 cm.

Cant wait to see the pics Zelly, If anyone else has lophs that have a massive head and many pups please post.

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found on the web

post-3765-1224034336_thumb.jpg

post-3765-1224034871_thumb.jpg

post-3765-1224035613_thumb.jpg

post-3765-1224036116_thumb.jpg

post-3765-1224036258_thumb.jpg

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post-3765-1224036653_thumb.jpg

post-3765-1224037054_thumb.jpg

post-3765-1224034336_thumb.jpg

post-3765-1224034871_thumb.jpg

post-3765-1224035613_thumb.jpg

post-3765-1224036116_thumb.jpg

post-3765-1224036258_thumb.jpg

post-3765-1224036424_thumb.jpg

post-3765-1224036463_thumb.jpg

post-3765-1224036653_thumb.jpg

post-3765-1224037054_thumb.jpg

post-3765-1224034336_thumb.jpg

post-3765-1224034871_thumb.jpg

post-3765-1224035613_thumb.jpg

post-3765-1224036116_thumb.jpg

post-3765-1224036258_thumb.jpg

post-3765-1224036424_thumb.jpg

post-3765-1224036463_thumb.jpg

post-3765-1224036653_thumb.jpg

post-3765-1224037054_thumb.jpg

Edited by zelly

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Thanks heaps for the pics and info Zelly nice collection. Great pics of some great plants How old is the caes in the 20 cm pot? Are you in Australia Zelly?

EDIT: Wanted to ask zelly if he is in oz

Edited by sharxx101

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caesposita lophs also develop fairly small heads, dont get very fluffy and ive found them reluctant to flower. They both look like caespitosa

I recently purchased some caesposita lophs that have started to flower well. as of yet they do not have many pups. Is it likey that they are just standard williamsii?

post-1098-1224046828_thumb.jpg

post-1098-1224046828_thumb.jpg

post-1098-1224046828_thumb.jpg

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I dont think there are any hard and fast rules as crosses with caespitosa could do anything. Ginga yours looks like a solitary plant.

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zelly,the small pup caespitosas seem to lack a larger central button?

the larger pup form seems to have one.

maybe this affects its growth pattern?

t s t .

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i have noticed that the more they pup, the less they flower. pinching off offsets helps flowers come out. i kind of agree with zelly and the different types of caespitosa...but i doubt its only 2 kinds....lots of seed grown ones...i am thinking its more of a smaller pupped ones simply pup more and spend enormous energy offsetting, while larger headed ones grow fewer offsets and are able to spend some energy on flowering.

those are amazing plants zelly!!!!

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pfft

Edited by zelly

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hehe, go for it!!!! some collectors have plants of similar size, so with your killer plants, im sure your able as well!!! there are so many nice fine water sucking roots on caespitosa that it should do ok.

whats your biggest now?

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Thanks for all the info guys and Zelly your collections is great thanks for sharing the great pics. I have a few more photos I will add to this thread later tonight just wanna see what everyone thinks of my buddys 7 year old lophs that has 3 pups popin out of it. I have heard so may different explainations from many different people about how to know what is just a regular loph and what is a caes. Some people have told me that a regular williamsii will pup sooner if it is a cutting rather than a seed grown one. It can all be a bit confusing sometimes

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my friends 7 year old loph with a few pups

Now that one is very hard to distinguish between standard willie and caespitosa. It really has both features - a very well aged single head in the centre with very standard willie ribs and pups that are pupping which indicates caespitosa. Its almost as if there is a standard willie with a few smaller seed grown caes plants around it.

Maybe just a late pupping L. williamsii v. caespitosa?

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Thanks everyone for the ID's

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So, am I to understand that seed from a caespitosa may not form caespitosa seedlings? Is this trait recessive, quantitative, or what? Thanks for the information KadaKuda. My guess is that its quantitative, but thats just a guess.

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caespitosa is a general term for many heads in these. so normal crosses could technicaly make caespitosa so long as the plant is prolific.

i have not bred many of these at all to even attempt a guess at it.

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