Psychedelics and Psychosis?

[incognito]

^^^ Man it would be so good if we were born pre-programmed with all the knowledge of our predecessors.

why im a big fan of dissasociatives. to bad i cant bring it back to reality!

sorry zen peddler i misread ur post

[mutant]

Incognito, would you count large dose amanitas as a dissociative experience?

[incognito]

i hav never experienced aminita

[incognito]

i am only speaking from personal experienece when i used to smoke ALOT of pure salvinorin a (when it was legal) and high dose ket experiences. i found that my personality or sense of self was stripped away from the person that we really are. i felt god-like, knowing everything that ever was, how everything worked, all the secrets of nature and on and on. just an amazing source of knowledge, which i can only put down to accesing the collective knowledge of everyone and everything.

u could even go one further and say that u stripped the human away from the god.

which is quite a pleasent relief if ur someone like me who struggles to string sentences together.

however no matter how hard u try u can never bring the knowledge back, it stays in that 'space'.

didnt do much for my ego though, developed a bit of a god-complex, until it was shaken out of me by some close frineds who let me know the truth 'its not all about you'.

amazing stuff and id do it again if ever sal and ket where made legal again.

this time submerged in a swimming pool with someone straight administering the drug and makin sure i dont drown!

[mutant]

That's very interesting incognito... you seem pretty self aware for someone that nearly got the messiah syndrome, well, that's from what you say , and , to be honest, not unlike Lilly.

I also have this sense of knowing how everything works, except these that remain unknown, if that doesn't like a contradiction but, heck I never did a very large dose of anything, think I got this slowly and step by step, notably begining some 4 years ago, when I started studying and picking edible mushrooms, and this some 3-4 years after my experiences with hoffmans potion in 2-3 years... and this is not some given-from-above epiphany that lasted for some hours and faded, the sense is everpresent, maybe especially because it came on slowly and without exaggerations, and it has a much more stable base, it's both rational that comes from direct and theoretical knolwedge, and also instictive and sentimental... if this makes sense

Inco, how come hadn't you experimented with amanitas back then when it was legal in oz? You sure know it is supposed to cause dissociative states in large doses, no?

hell, this is getting waaaaaaay out of subject....

******

on topic

and none of them have encountered any real issues other than maybe a few bad trips at the times and a few sort of anxiety related issues following these bad trips. None ever had an episode of psychosis following an acid/shroom trip and none have ever encountered flashbacks. Same deal for me.

Well I know this topic is about psychosis, but anxiety problems are still problems, and seemingly hell for some people, and the majority of psychedlic abusers that get some drug induced disorder is almost always related with anxiety... I can't tell by what you're saying how seriosu the anxiety problems are/were, but from what I can tell, you HAVE abused psychedelics. And, I am convinced that if someone had a predisposition to psychosis, then an abuse of such extent would have propably brought it out. So, it's pretty definite that you DON'T have predisposition fro psychosis

In regards with psychosis, amphetamine like substances, as well as mdma like as well as coke use are more related.

Another thing I would like to note is that in the psychedelic culture, where multidrug use is quite often, it might be quite hard to spot the single substance that triggered a problem... Like that example of tst tantra, if the said individual was warned not to do any more drugs at the time, and he still did, heck, what did he expect? A glowing experience?

Tikis comments are quite interesting also, but quotes like

Ecstacy: for mindless souls who seek more love than they deserve.

Amphetamines: For clarity.....NOT FOR TRIPPING!

Ketamine and PCP? Not good for anyone.

make me hesitant to try and comment... I have found out that when people talk big words in such forums, especially bashing or praising certain substances, they usually believe so much in their own subjective reality, that what they say is of zero credibility, like aforementioned quotes.

Insanely fun for those of us with bipolar....esp on the full moon!

This is quite interesting... Would someone say more? why full moon is different, and how is it more pronounced for bi-polar people... and I wonder how insanely fun this would be on the depression phase.... ?

Do you find any similarities of manic phase and psychosis, well not experiencing it, by description?

Edited October 17, 2008 by mutant

[incognito]

i definately dont know about self-aware!!

never had any interest in amanitas, they grew by the ton along the golf fairways where i lived, kids used to kik em around on the way to school. I dunno id have em if someone who knew what they where doing prepared them. sounds like uve dosed pretty highly on amanitas mutant?

reports on amanita trips are so mixed and varied.

i guess like anything u hafta know what ur doing when preparing them and know what a good dosage is. i met a danish girl last monday who raved about them, said she always 'flew' on them like an eagle!!

sounds pretty cool and she was very convincing!!

[nabraxas]

i don't know about anybody else, but i know one person who has had trips on LSD & shrooms that have taken him a long time to get over, & i don't mean just heavy trips where he met death or some other entity, that left him shaken but otherwise OK; i mean trips where he had extremely paranoid thoughts, he hallucinated people talking about him, he imagined there was some kind ov conspiracy against him, even the music playing seemed to contain messages only he was getting...basically all the hallmarks ov schizophrenia/paranoid delusions.

those hallucinations went away when he stopped tripping, but it took him months to fully recover from the effects & regain his tripping mojo.

Edited October 17, 2008 by nabraxas

[MindExpansion]

I know of very similar experiences on LSD nab.

Scary stuff.

Peace

[mutant]

i don't know about anybody else, but i know one person who has had trips on LSD & shrooms that have taken him a long time to get over, & i don't mean just heavy trips where he met death or some other entity, that left him shaken but otherwise OK; i mean trips where he had extremely paranoid thoughts, he hallucinated people talking about him, he imagined there was some kind ov conspiracy against him, even the music playing seemed to contain messages only he was getting...basically all the hallmarks ov schizophrenia/paranoid delusions.

those hallucinations went away when he stopped tripping, but it took him months to fully recover from the effects & regain his tripping mojo.

well, this type of bad trip, I mean hearing that people are talking about you and stuff, has accured on two occasions to a very close friend of mine during the trip, but the effects were not lasting at all. The next day he was just like after having had a negative situation and you kind of feel hurt emotionally, but that was all, oh and he felt he should lay off some 10 days of MJ which he did.

But I guess the big difference is the lasting effects... lasting effects after a trip, even a bad one, is not good sign, I think.... Lasting effects can be somewhat justified by some really large dose, at least for a couple days or so, but I don't know much about these myself...

never had any interest in amanitas, they grew by the ton along the golf fairways where i lived, kids used to kik em around on the way to school. I dunno id have em if someone who knew what they where doing prepared them. sounds like uve dosed pretty highly on amanitas mutant?

reports on amanita trips are so mixed and varied.

i guess like anything u hafta know what ur doing when preparing them and know what a good dosage is. i met a danish girl last monday who raved about them, said she always 'flew' on them like an eagle!!

sounds pretty cool and she was very convincing!!

Well, I have not had really big doses, but have had used them many times up to medium doses, sharing them with various people with no unpleasant reaction - on the contrary... only once did I touch the beginings of disscociation [it reminded me of salvia space a bit] in my first experience with amanita pantherina ~ it was on an occasion where we were jamming muzic with a friend, so I didn't drink more, as I understood I would become incapable of controling my arms if I went on... For me it's like when one will be drawn to go for such an experience... for now I have left it to the future...

Well, I am certainly not your typical psychonaut.. I don't advocate or obsess over large doses. Many plants have vast differences in the effects if you change you dosing range... Like I have said many times, amanitas are something you aint allowd to be in a hasty mood. Determination of dosage and knowledge of the right preperation are essential IMO for someone who wants to experiment with this mushroom, to make the best of it, and stay safe.

I have studied amanita mythology and facts for many years, having much or less concluded on the general idea, even though someone might argue that having not had a full blown amanita experience, I cannot claim having the knowledge... well , to each his own... My views are not popular, I know, but I do carry a point.

The reason I mentioned amanita was that you said you have had something with dissociatives... I can gladly give you links of useful threads and discussions I have participated in other forums, mostly e-dot.

PS: Inco, have seen pics of the cactus you sent me early this year?? It's 3 times that size!!!

PS2: Amanitas are legal where I am....

PS3: There I go , I am off topic again...

Edited October 18, 2008 by mutant

[nabraxas]

The next day he was just like after having had a negative situation and you kind of feel hurt emotionally

agreed. there were no lasting effects from the drug, it just took him along time to realise that "everything" was just "in his mind", to put it into context, & to get over that emotional hurt/confusion & loss ov confidence.

he did take rather a large amount ov LSD ontop ov other things , but hey, maybe he's not as emotionally resilient as other people

[t st tantra]

allowing time for an experience to process is important too,before next voyaging.

a clear day ,the day after an experience is almost essential just incase something needs a bit of thought.

sometimes i've watched someone continually dosing on one thing after another with no break and just known they were in for a crash but a word of advice doesnt always help.

t s t .

[Mr Griffin...]

Been there, done that (in some past life...) but isn't that how we learn that we SHOULDN'T do that again... I mean, if we treat every day as a new learning experience, and remember the lessons from the past, things flow so much nicely-er-ish...

[cycle]

...you seem pretty self aware for someone that nearly got the messiah syndrome, well, that's from what you say , and , to be honest, not unlike Lilly.

Does John Lily have much to say about "the messiah syndrome"? If so where would I find this writing?

I experienced this recently in Peru. It was one of the most intense and healing experiences of my life at the same time very confusing. I kept on denying the messiah aspect but the trip just kept walloping me with this whole destiny thing. I was aware of it as almost a "psychedelic cliche" but how common is it really? After the experience I couldn't take it literally but the experience had been so powerful I also couldn't just dismiss it either. I'd be very interested in hearing about other people's experiences with this phenomenon. The way I have dealt with it so far is to consider that anyone could have access to this experience, I am not special (as it felt at the time) I just happened to contact it on this particular night. But honestly I need a bit more than that. I mean how do I differentiate between delusional experiences and, for lack of a better term, non-delusional experiences? Isn't it just subjective viewpoint, that is it could be good/bad, positive/negative, beneficial/damaging depending on how you interpret the experience.

anyone got any insight about this?

incidentally I googled it and the closest I got was this very biased article by James Kent

[t st tantra]

hero archetype?

t s t .

[mutant]

but isn't that how we learn that we SHOULDN'T do that again...

exactly

Does John Lily have much to say about "the messiah syndrome"? If so where would I find this writing?

Well, every epiphany, any sudden realisation of great truth, either on psychedelics, or even smoking a mj joint on top of 1 litre of beer are prophetic, have a sense that the individual archives access to greater truth, especially when it's combined by a great sense of euphoria. The messiah syndrom, in the context I used it, includes the extreme obssesion for some idea, much to the point of preaching, continiously and obsessively.

McKenna is a better example, of what I mean, according to my present readings.

The guy went way far , and he's brought some wonderful ideas back, but heck, somewhere between the mechanical elves and the alien intelligence he forgot the each human is an individual, not a part of a machine. I mean mechanical elves have nothing to do with everyday life, real life, you know? And it's ultimately McKenna's 'enlighted', prophetic, messianic tone , the notion that 'I have seen the truth' or something..

Heck you dont see the truth. You feel it. in your spine maybe? any way, that gives the best example of what I meant by 'messianic syndrome'.. for now .. heh, the grade, varies, of course...

Cycle, those points / questions you put bring on , bring the discussion to a whole new level, heh, the discussion about the 'nature of reality'.

Isn't it just subjective viewpoint, that is it could be good/bad, positive/negative, beneficial/damaging depending on how you interpret the experience.

and here is where you hit the target. and I would put my sig under it, if I shifted the black/white associations to a signly more holistic structure of understanding oneself

Edited October 19, 2008 by mutant

[cycle]

... I mean mechanical elves have nothing to do with everyday life, real life, you know? And it's ultimately McKenna's 'enlighted', prophetic, messianic tone , the notion that 'I have seen the truth' or something..

Heck you dont see the truth. You feel it. in your spine maybe? any way, that gives the best example of what I meant by 'messianic syndrome'.. for now .. heh, the grade, varies, of course...

I don't know if I agree with this statement. One of the goals, or even unintended outcomes, of the psychedelic experience could be considered to be transcendence which is by definition not to do with everyday life.

[mutant]

One of the goals, or even unintended outcomes, of the psychedelic experience could be considered to be transcendence which is by definition not to do with everyday life.

I agree, but not transcendence for the sake of it. Either you like it or not, or include it in your approach towards psychedelics, you will be back to ordinary life.

No wonder one could see god or elves or anything in large doses of psychdelics - but this doesn't mean any of these visions are the essence of it all. It doesn't mean this visions respresent necessarily archetypical truths, only subjective truths. Earth and nature 'feel' like ultimate truth , elves don't.

[Chiral]

Just goes to show how much we cling to reality and its realitive safness...

Even though we are allways talkin about escaping it.

I feel lucky to be one of those that can go far and it still isnt enough.

peace.

H.

[MindExpansion]

Are psychedelics about escaping reality? Or just voyaging to another place to learn new things and have an experience which may be useful when you return (or may not be of any use and may have just been an interesting journey)?

Peace

[t st tantra]

the medicine,traditionally used for healing,but we talk more about dangers of using it......whats up?

t s t .

[MindExpansion]

Every medicine has its side effects don't you think tst?

I believe it only sensible to discuss them.

Peace

[mutant]

the medicine,traditionally used for healing,but we talk more about dangers of using it......whats up?

t s t .

I find it appropriate to talk about the dangers also. Because there are dangers. I too am amased by psychedelics incredible potential.

but hey, taking drugs to escape reality is not a good habit... taking drugs to entertain reality and the odds now, is slightly different, but this also cannot be constant...

edited for typos

Edited October 28, 2008 by mutant

[t st tantra]

hopefully my head will be clearer tomorrow......

t s t .

[immanuel]

i don't know about anybody else, but i know one person who has had trips on LSD & shrooms that have taken him a long time to get over, & i don't mean just heavy trips where he met death or some other entity, that left him shaken but otherwise OK; i mean trips where he had extremely paranoid thoughts, he hallucinated people talking about him, he imagined there was some kind ov conspiracy against him, even the music playing seemed to contain messages only he was getting...basically all the hallmarks ov schizophrenia/paranoid delusions.

those hallucinations went away when he stopped tripping, but it took him months to fully recover from the effects & regain his tripping mojo.

This happened to me on a strong LSD trip once aswell. I could not differ reality from my thoughts. It was like I was in a dreamstate where I never knew what was real. I would think about one of my friends dying and think it was actually happening. I would talk to my friends in these 'dream thoughts' thinking it was real, to my friends it just looked like I was babbling away to myself. I thought my close friends were conspiring against me and had purposely turned me forever insane for not obeying their demonic commands. Music took control of my thoughts and I believed it had been written by my friends, who I thought were gods, in order to do so. I sunk deeper and deeper into these sort of paranoid delusions until I believed I had control of the future. I thought I was choosing futures which resulted in my friends deaths and insanity until finally I believed in order to save my friends I had to kill myself. To kill myself, choose the future where I died, I believed I had to forget everything about my life and let go of everything wordly. I did this and I think really all I did was let go of my ego and in a split second I snapped out of this crazy state and was basically sober. It was so strange.

[mutant]

A bad trip resembles sometimes a psychotic episode. That's why they initially named them psychotomimics ;)