Jump to content
The Corroboree
Sign in to follow this  
immanuel

Psychedelics and Psychosis?

Recommended Posts

From what I've read it seems occasionly people end up in a psychosis from tripping, some come out of it, but it is permanent for others. The responses as to why this happens from people who trip are usually the following; heavy psychedelic abuse, underlying or present psychological problems or a family history.

Well I don't plan on abusing psychedelics, and if you've got a mental disorder or even a family history your best off staying away from psychedelics. But how are you supposed to know if you have underlying psychological problems? I've heard of guys with schizophrenia tripping hundreds of times and coming out fine, then people who seem perfectly stable and without a family history snap after just one trip. It seems like a roll of the dice that a psychosis may be the result of a trip for anyone.

Is this the kind of thing everyone assumes won't happen to them until it does? The thought of losing my mind after taking a psychedelic scares me. Doesn't this concern you guys, how do you manage to trip on a regular basis? I'd really like to hear everyone's opinion on this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I personally have never met anyone who has had 'psychedelic psychosis' from one single psychedelic experience, but I have heard many rumours of friends that have had friends who knew a boyfriends best mate's cousin who had gone permanently crazy from 'trippin on shrooms'...

I have however seen first hand that psychedelic abuse (like abuse of any psychotropic substance) lead to some issues where people become just a bit too 'far out' in their everyday lives and suffer from what I would consider a form of psychedelic a psychosis.

My advice is use not abuse.

If you do happen to have a history of mental disorders or substance abuse in your family, then perhaps you should look at that as a potential problem for yourself and blow caution to the wind and steer clear of all substances, both naturally occurring AND made made, altogether.

Edited by Hyphalknot

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i think the psychosis is there to begin with. i dont think psychadelics can 'give' you a psychosis.

i do think that psychadelics can bring to the surface and magnify psychosis.

which may have its benefits. it may also be the nudge that pushes u over the edge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here are some of the stories I have been reading, these are just the recent ones. I don't see why people would just make up some story, I really do believe it happens. I read the studies in the 60s showed seemingly normal people did experience psychotic episodes after being dosed with LSD.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.p.../0/fpart/1/vc/1

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.p...1660118#1660118

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.p.../Number/1920701

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.p...185/an/0/page/0

I've read several personal accounts of people losing their mind for a good long time on shrooms, with dosages ranging from half an oz to as low as an eighth.

i think the psychosis is there to begin with. i dont think psychadelics can 'give' you a psychosis.

i do think that psychadelics can bring to the surface and magnify psychosis.

which may have its benefits. it may also be the nudge that pushes u over the edge.

This is a response I read quite often. How exactly are you supposed to know if the 'psychosis' is there to begin with? I know of people with schizophrenia in their family who have tripped hundreds of times, then read accounts of very experienced trippers ending up in a psychosis. The underlying psychosis theory doesnt seem to change the fact that it could happen to almost anyone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
as low as an eighth.

This is still a LARGE dose, so what do they expect....?

You should start low and work up as you get comfortable with the feeling. If I took an eighth for my first experience I reckon I would most likely feel as if I lost my mind and it would probably take a while to recover from such en experience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

edited

Psychological effects of (S)-ketamine and N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT): a double-blind, cross-over study in healthy volunteers.

Gouzoulis-Mayfrank E, Heekeren K, Neukirch A, Stoll M, Stock C, Obradovic M, Kovar KA.

INTRODUCTION: Pharmacological challenges with hallucinogens are used as models for psychosis in experimental research. The state induced by glutamate antagonists such as phencyclidine (PCP) is often considered as a more appropriate model of psychosis than the state induced by serotonergic hallucinogens such as lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD), psilocybin and N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT). However, so far, the psychological profiles of the two types of hallucinogenic drugs have never been studied directly in an experimental within-subject design. METHODS: Fifteen healthy volunteers were included in a double-blind, cross-over study with two doses of the serotonin 5-HT2A agonist DMT and the glutamate N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) antagonist (S)-ketamine. RESULTS: Data are reported for nine subjects who completed both experimental days with both doses of the two drugs. The intensity of global psychological effects was similar for DMT and (S)-ketamine. However, phenomena resembling positive symptoms of schizophrenia, particularly positive formal thought disorder and inappropriate affect, were stronger after DMT. Phenomena resembling negative symptoms of schizophrenia, attention deficits, body perception disturbances and catatonia-like motor phenomena were stronger after (S)-ketamine. DISCUSSION: The present study suggests that the NMDA antagonist model of psychosis is not overall superior to the serotonin 5-HT2A agonist model. Rather, the two classes of drugs tend to model different aspects or types of schizophrenia. The NMDA antagonist state may be an appropriate model for psychoses with prominent negative and possibly also catatonic features, while the 5-HT2A agonist state may be a better model for psychoses of the paranoid type.

Edited by twix elbert

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

positive effects of schizophrenia............glad to see that term in use!

twix,have you checked out anandas site..........messy mishmash but fascinating.........he apparently had 2 bike accidents[not just one] at about 17yo........think the first resulted in a decade or so of nmda inhibition,the second in the production of pinoline and dmtriptamines for a similar period!

t s t .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
re the discussion, are you talking about psychedelics triggering a psychosis or schizophrenia, or a bad trip changing someone's personality so they're all fuct up?

I can't speak for mardybum but I'm pretty sure he was talking about general psychosis, not specifically schizophrenia :wink:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

there is a form of illness in sth america which is said to be unique to that area and due to cultural factors......sugo?cant remember.......but i've wondered if its more a disease of entheogen using populations........think its a fear/obsession thing.

have experienced and seen others haunted by intense entheogen experiences........esp open eye visuals,eyes everywhere,or a pattern which is consuming everything......

t s t .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

have first hand experience wathcing a friend melt into psycosis of 'ecstacy'

god knows what was in the pill but he never really came back... paranoid sciz from then on.

smoked himself to death.

Just thought u guys should know it can happen, especially with chems coz u dont know whats in em!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A mate of mine went from being just a bit interesting, to nearly totally lost his mind, and im fairly sure it has a lot to do with abuse of acid and MJ. As far as a psychosis already existing, my opinion is that this isnt the case, but rather that some people may be pre-disposed to developing psychosis (which is different to psychosis already existing) and the psychedelics can set that off.

Peace

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Is this the kind of thing everyone assumes won't happen to them until it does? The thought of losing my mind after taking a psychedelic scares me. Doesn't this concern you guys, how do you manage to trip on a regular basis? I'd really like to hear everyone's opinion on this.

I went crazy for the better part of a year after eating some Panaeolus subbalteatus mushrooms. I lost my mind, went bat-shit crazy... but then... after about 6 months of anxiety attacks and insanity... I realized... "Hey... I'm not crazy?"

And then I got better... and in the end... it was good for me! Though it was the most horrible period of my life, the mushrooms had a lesson for me. I think people who think they've gone crazy just need to learn to deal with their new reality.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I mentioned this in another thread, but here's my experience with psychedelic induced psychosis.

A very good friend of mine had his first cube experience in grad school, approximately 5 years ago (he was a very late bloomer considering the company he kept...for a frame of reference, I've enjoyed these types of experiences for 15 years). For him, the trip was beautiful. He mentioned that it was the FIRST TIME he had ever taken a moment to appreciate a sunset. I know, I know...I could hardly believe it myself. So the trip went beautifully for him, until he started to come down.

As the effects wore off, he started to act really hard on himself. He was angry that he'd never appreciated the simple beauty in things like sunsets and flowers and all that great stuff. Not upset or simply angry though, more of a rage that seemed to build inside of him. Like a tangible, irrational rage. I tried to explain to him that that is what this is for: to awaken one's self. Perhaps he lost time, but he was still young. Now's the time to wake up and live!

So the next morning he just wasn't the same. He was extremely agitated. All in a rush, fumbling around like a madman. We went to a diner, and he had trouble getting his money out of his wallet so he just yanked the thing out and threw it across the floor. Then at the very end of the meall, he just NEEDED to go see this movie. We weren't completely done eating, we hadn't discussed the movie at all, and didn't know the times. But he bolted up, and said he was going. So we indulged him, and walk the blocks to the theatre. When we get there, he just walks in without a ticket. A guy grabbed him, and I rushed over to explain that I'd be buying the ticket and that it's ok. Just barely smoothed that scene out, if I do say so myself.

This type of crap continues for the day, so I agree with his GF that it would be a good idea for me to stay longer than planned (and thusly missing more work than I was supposed to). Nothing changes, but life goes on; I HAVE to go back home. I called him several times a day, and he indicated that he wasn't going to lab for his graduate degree. He wasn't taking care of himself or his apartment, and basically too anxious to go outside or do anything other than sit there. He finally went to talk to a therapist, which resulted in a yelling match and him storming out of the office. I visited again a couple weeks later, and nothing seemed to have changed.

Then, one day about 4 or 5 weeks after the trip, he called me and left a message. "Hey blizz, I'm on my way to lab, just calling to say hi." It was like nothing ever happend. Although I was relieved, I was also a bit disturbed that he didn't even mention the whole fiasco, not even as a side-note. Well, he genuinely did seem to recover, as that was 5 years ago and there hasn't been any indication of relapse. Just as importantly, he does remember what happened, and we can talk about it in a rather frank and open atmosphere. The only lasting effect seems to be that he's scared shitless of doing anything even remotely similar to that ever again. He'll have a beer or a smoke, but that's it. I can't say that I blame him either. It was scary enough to have me question my own behavior.

So that's my story. He has had no other indications of schizophrenia or psychosis, and neither does anyone in his relatively extended family. I hope that he stays the way that he is, and that nobody else has to go through what he experienced!

Be careful, and please travel with caution!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The only lasting effect seems to be that he's scared shitless of doing anything even remotely similar to that ever again. He'll have a beer or a smoke, but that's it. I can't say that I blame him either. It was scary enough to have me question my own behavior.

That's about EXACTLY what happened to me. I was scared shitless, but it did teach me a lesson and I'm bravely going back :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, that in and of itself can indeed be valuable. The problem is that he came THIS CLOSE to dropping out of grad school and losing his girlfriend, not to mention putting his closest friends through the ringer. Luckily, it was only close...but had he dropped out, etc., then the after-effects would be far more impacting on his life. That's why I feel so strongly about this topic, and why I may have reacted on the harsh side in the other thread. You feel me?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are some simple answers to the question raised

[edited to fix the typos]

1) There not de facto approach for the drug-induced disorder... history of abuse, bad sets + settings or unfortunate events during a psychedelic experience, heroic doses ~ especially combined with a bad set and/or setting seem to be able to induce or catalyze bad experiences, sometimes almost traumatic, but most people are reasonably fine the next day, if somewhat emotionaly beaten... so there goes the matter of predisposition... sometimes a prexistence of a tendency might reveal itself with use or more often abuse of stimulants or psychedelics.

2) My theory is that we can trace signs , before a crisis occurs... signs that indicate a person is 'mentally unstable'... the thing is that each one should be able to trace the signs himself, if they occur... people who overdo it and finally harm themselves short or long term are people who didn't see or ignored the 'signs'. The signs that said "Hey mate... now it's time to stop this. I am warning you"

3) It is useful to know that cannabis also seems to be one of the substances that might cause these episodes alone or in conjuction

4) There are many types of crisis, psychotic episode is pretty different and more severe from an intense panic attack. But a psychotic episode doesn't necessarily render one a psychotic... as well as some panic attacks don't automatically render one a panic-disorder neurotic.

That's about EXACTLY what happened to me. I was scared shitless, but it did teach me a lesson and I'm bravely going back

5) this exactly what it doesn't take, bravery, especially if a history exists. sensibility is the word we are looking for here... the fact the psychedelics can be blessing, it doesn't mean they're 'safe', I cannot stretch this enough, how the approach is very important too...

6) In short, psychedelics are drugs with instructions of use... some people seem to be able to abuse them and have fun, with not much of 'casualties', but, boy, for some others, they have to be used right, or NOT at all. And, to be honest, even the pioneers who have a long history, they eventually cease or moderate their use to annual or even more sparsely....

Edited by mutant

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
A mate of mine went from being just a bit interesting, to nearly totally lost his mind, and im fairly sure it has a lot to do with abuse of acid and MJ. As far as a psychosis already existing, my opinion is that this isnt the case, but rather that some people may be pre-disposed to developing psychosis (which is different to psychosis already existing) and the psychedelics can set that off.

Peace

Key word here is 'abuse'. Use, not abuse, is the key, like everything in life.

I really hate the fact that drug abusers give drug users a bad name when they inevitably go off the rails.

3) It is useful to know that cannabis also seems to be one of the substances that might cause these episodes alone or in conjuction

Your whole answer I really vibrate with, but most especially this one. Really well written.

SO many times does MJ catalyse any anxiety. My recommendation is to not touch any cannabis the day of a psychedelic experience, or at least until you think that most of the effects of the psychedelics have worn off. Definitely do NOT smoke a joint to 'bring on the shrooms', unless you are experienced with this mindset.

I would consider myself experienced and personally I hate the combination of the two. MJ really makes it tough to focus and get the best out of the trip, and can send me to a dark place almost every time - unless the effects are almost completely worn off, then a little joint generally brings them back again - although in a different, kind of darker, twisted way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Use not abuse does not always work... as in my friends case he only ate his like 7th bikkie in over a year. With chemical drugs you get a batch with chems that dont agree with you and its all over.

From being the best dude out he became the most paranoid schizo i have ever met...

It can only take one and saying that using in moderation is safe is false. Some peoples brain chemistry... and some of the shit dumb 'chemists' do in prep of these drugs can ruin your life forever!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even if the chems are produced properly or you are using drugs provided by nature, there is certainly no telling if it will be your first or your 50th hit that does it... so i agree Puft, moderation may be safer than abuse in other ways, but I think as far as inducing mental illness is concerned, we don't know enough about how drugs can be involved to say whether moderate use is any safer than abuse.

Peace

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Use not abuse does not always work... as in my friends case he only ate his like 7th bikkie in over a year. With chemical drugs you get a batch with chems that dont agree with you and its all over.

From being the best dude out he became the most paranoid schizo i have ever met...

It can only take one and saying that using in moderation is safe is false. Some peoples brain chemistry... and some of the shit dumb 'chemists' do in prep of these drugs can ruin your life forever!

Fair point, and Im sorry to hear about your friend. I believe this discussion is primarily about psychedelics (mainly psilocybin, being in the mushroom forum) and my personal take on them is that as a whole they are not too dangerous if used responsibly.

You are right - unknown pills are a bigger risk and you really are at the mercy of the person making them. This is not the case with mushrooms (unless they are un-identified, then there is a higher risk).

But, that being said, everyone IS different and things affect everyone in different ways.

At there end of the day there are no guarantees in life, generally the most beneficial experiences carry risk - you just have to way up the risk versus the reward when making decisions and take into account any variables you can think of to help you come up with the right decision for you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Exactly right Mind. The human brain is the final frontier and will probably be so for many years to come. We may never unlock the secrets of the mind and therefore may never really know what effects some of these psycs have on the brain.

Some people are misinformed... reading things like the LD50 of psilocybin is higher than that of caffine and other 'facts' such as this but sometimes it is not the 'poisoning' that kills or damages the brain but other side effects that are the cause.

It is important that people are informed of the risks... and if in doubt it is ALWAYS best to tread uncharted waters with caution!

I love 'alternate' states of mind as much as any of you... but i also respect my sanity and will always use caution with any 'drug' herbal or even prescriptive.

It is also important to remember that just coz sum quack wrote out a script ofr something dosen't make it safe... and it is these subtle differences in our brain chemistry's that are sometimes overlooked by 'script happy' doctors!

Sorry for getting off topic a little!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No need to apologise, for anything. This is a conversation that really needed to be had, in fact it is the most important topic ever raised on this forum, personally I think it should have been discussed honestly in 2000 and pinned. Much more needs to be said, I just hope I'm not going to be the one that has to say it.

I don't understand how someone could be an active member of this forum for 4 years and say something like this:

i dont think psychadelics can 'give' you a psychosis.

(sorry jono)I'm glad we've moved on a little since then.

Edited by baphomet

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What I would really love to hear, because this is a question I have asked myself many times, is whether or not you can feel warning signs when a psychosis is developing, or when schizophrenia begins to develop, or if it is like, one moment your ok, the next your not (i would also like to have 'one moment' defined by someone who's been there, so do you go into a trip ok, and come out with psychosis [and I don't mean the temporary psychosis many drugs can induce, I mean a lasting psychosis/schizophrenia], or does it gradually progress until it finally hits a certain point where it is fully developed, or may you just wake up one day totally different to the last, i.e with a fully developed psychosis/mental illness?)

The knowledge of whether or not you can tell you are slipping is valuable to anyone who uses psychoactives, and I'd love to see that info made available by as many people who have had the experience as is possible.

Peace

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What I would really love to hear, because this is a question I have asked myself many times, is whether or not you can feel warning signs when a psychosis is developing, or when schizophrenia begins to develop, or if it is like, one moment your ok, the next your not

before the onset of schizophrenia, there's a prodromal phase that can be 12+ months warning that something is awry ... slowly the threads of sanity unweave. because schizophrenia is characterised by a hyperdopaminergic state and dopamine is involved in motivation/salience, in the prodromal phase some people who go on to develop schizophrenia say that it was as though the whole world became brighter. read into the aberrant salience hypothesis of schizophrenia ... so yeah, when this crazy world makes sense to you, that's when you're truly insane :wink:

schizophrenia emerges when you go to a psychiatrist and they have their checklist of symptoms and they tick them off and you satisfy the criteria. but you need to appreciate that it isn't binary (you haven't got it or you do) and it exists along a continuum from normal to schizophrenic. some people display schizophrenia-like symptoms e.g. paranoia, unusual beliefs, social withdrawal, delusions without ever being given the label of schizophrenia. and because it's about 80% heritable, family members of schizophrenics are usually a bit odd themselves. i'd write more but i must sleep.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So fucking glad to be a part of this discussion.

First of all, I don't think anyone said that psychedelics are 'safe', and if they did, they don't know what they're talking about. Most classic psychedelics might be relatively non-toxic to the body, but the mental risks are the tip of the mountain here, not 'traditional' toxicity. So there's no 'safe' , just 'safer' ...

And, to speak about me personally, I don't really care for 'harm reduction for dummies'... I am more interested in the real deal, people will always be abusing drugs, even drugs like psychedelics [take a look a bluelight for antichrist's sake, almost everyone is a multi-drug-abuser and suffers from one or more forms of mental instability ~ now that forum is impressive in this account!] , and consequently they will be giving a 'bad name' to people who do use psychoactives sensibly. I hate this too, but heck, it's only up to us responsibles to educate ourselves, spread the word and awareness and serious approach and risks involved, and maybe, just maybe, prove to a couple of people the wonderful people we are, and that there are indeed people who use psychoactives responsibly and creatively , who do not resemple the average druggies in the least. What I hate to see is US, the knowledgeable, that is, is to hide these truths and risks and incidents under the carpet, just because it "harms" the ideal picture of the 'wonder drugs', psychedelics.

I can very well understand that the e-shop business that exploits psychedelics is not particularly benefited by such discussions, but heck, I dislike most of these e-shops anyways... and they're also a part of this 'problem'... selling anything from ayahuasca to datura seeds as 'legal highs'.

Also remember that these were the very mistakes Leary, McKenna and other psychedelic advertisors/enthusiasts did: they praised psychs too much, they got so much into their own messiah syndrome, that they forgot that not everyone is alike, and eventually, for some, the recipees so easily given away would be their 'doom', their own and/or their followers. Well, that's what the anonymous psychs advertisors do nowadays in psychedelic forums. And I hope to see more of this awareness like this, starting in this thread, in the future.

This is a conversation that really needed to be had, in fact it is the most important topic ever raised on this forum, personally I think it should have been discussed honestly in 2000 and pinned. Much more needs to be said, I just hope I'm not going to be the one that has to say it.

Yep, I feel so too, and heck, these issues have really faced a problem to be properly discussed in any forum, no wonder why, though. I feel and hope that this forum is more honest and more open-minded, and , even though we will still see psychedelic enthusiasts turnt off by the facts presented here, facts are facts nevertheless.... And yes, more have to be said, you're not alone baphomet ;)

What I would really love to hear, because this is a question I have asked myself many times, is whether or not you can feel warning signs when a psychosis is developing, or when schizophrenia begins to develop

alright, this is one really good point .... especially since this thread is supposedly about psychosis... I will repeat myself saying that it's a different cake from panic disorders and other lighter [but still serious] mental instabilities... well, someone who is on the verge of having a psychotic episode, or is slowly walking towards it, propably CANNOT see the indicator signs. This is obviously a 'technical' problem - how to see them if you have began to detach from reality...

Now, please do remember that the original concept of these substances being consumed was with a guide, a shaman, a doctor, something, also was done following a thousands-of-years-native-experience and through a ceremony of some kind. There cannot be enough said about the necessity of set & setting of the modern psychonaut.

The 'psychonaut' who follows a loner path and consumes psychs everyonce in a while is in greater risk than the 'psychonaut' who is social and chooses to discuss and search and talk about his experiences seriously. So a friend , comrade, fellow psychonaut could see the signs, unlike the potential victim and try to warn him. People need to socialise, to have friends and people who care about them, and it might sound trivial or irrelevant with this, but it's not. What does it pay to have faced the 'ultimate truth' or having had the most astounding experience of your life and not having anyone to talk this about but some net-forum?

Everyone is unique and different, that's the biggest 'problem' of generalising when talking about psychedelics. You cannot quite give easily digested general rules. The rules are 'custom' and have to be designed by the individual who plans to have the psychedelic experience. The risks of each one might also be different.

F.e. someone might have a slight tendency for agoraphobia, when on strong psychs or even pot, so, he might need to choose a totally isolated place to have his psych experience, so that random exposure to strangers will be totally avoided. Some might dislike stimulation and have tendency to have panic attacks and anxiety. Well these, f.e. should steer clear from strong stimulants like speed etc. , while the anxiety management in a psych experience becomes more complex, special care should be taken for the people who will accompany him to the trip [familiarity] etc etc or ways to calm him down if panic occurs.

For these and many other reasons, that's WHY DOCTORS ought to have the control and coordination of these substances , not random individuals. But let's not talk about the disgusting health system of the modern world.

Moreover, I strongly believe all metal illnesses have warning signs. I will admit I have been intertested in mental illness since I was pretty younger, and I have always taken an interest in spotting 'defects' in others personalities, excuse my cynicism. The signs are there, and I suppose that the problem is that even if people around have noticed the signs and have warned the fellow psychonaut he should not consume anymore of the said psychoactives, "at least for a long period of time", IT'S UP TO HIM to take the decision and quit it. People even friends cannot force him not to. Especially if he is on the verge of psychosis.

An example of this has very recently occured to a community I am part of, the guy step by step walked into a situation that eventually caused a severe psychotic episode despite he knew for many months now he should quit psychedelics, even if many of us warned him off them. We don't really know the real events. The guy now claims that the people he was with [his friends!] dosed him !?!?! Sad story... even though he seems to be pretty alright now... I will also add to this story that the guy had just a couple but quite large doses of psychs this last year, following the idiotic 'heroic dose' path that McKenna and others advertise... not before the actual episode, but I though I might add nevertheless....

OOooff, I'm done & I hope to see lots of good discussion :)

Edited by mutant

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×