Out-of-date drug laws are hurting people

[Teotzlcoatl]

You wouldn't say that if you were being attacked by a psychotic meth head who hadn't slept in a week! Nor would you say that if you were drugged with scopolamine and had your organs removed!

Get the hell outta here! Hahaha!

I think most (if not all) types of synthetic drugs should only legal with a prescription.

I think botanicals of every sort should be legal in their living and dried forms, while extracts or concentrations of intoxicating botanicals would remain illegal (such as processed opium, hash, kratom extract, etc.).

This would basically leave a loop-hole for the growers and cultivators of the plants, people knowledgable (and thus respectful) to use the various naturally occuring botanical intoxicants while allowing police to keep a profile of "keeping druggies out of society" while still enforcing sensible drugs laws such as those agiast heroin, meth and cocaine.

I'd really like to see recreation opiates, distilled alcohol, commerical nicotine products, meth, cocaine and many other synthetic drugs completely removed from human society, at the same time botanicals would begin to be used more widely for medinical and intoxication purposes.

Edited September 10, 2008 by Teotz'

[baphomet]

More much needed crash courses in reality:

'The Worlds Most Dangerous Drug' http://video.google.com.au/videosearch?q=M...;aq=-1&oq=#

Pt 2 http://video.google.com.au/videosearch?q=m...emb=0&aq=f#

Pt 3 http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x26liw_me...ous-drug_street

'Colombian Devils Breath' (about scopolomine) http://www.vbs.tv/shows.php?show=1119174604&source=drop

[cannaboiler]

WTF has the Iraq war got to do with drug laws? Just because war and corruption are a reality that means that marijihuana should be legal? I suppose cause there are wars there's nothing wrong with everyone smoking a "simple" crackpipe then either?

It's Got "Everything" to do with it do you not understand the concept of Connectivity bro(sorry a pinch of scarcasm there) seriously Appeasement in the Face of Aggression Begets more Aggression, Simply But if The Bully Gets his way Once!!!. I Chimed In here Because I felt A Persecute the "Druggie" vibe Happening with some comment's, Which i dont see as appropriate for People Who's Beliefs are Just as Marginalised by "Mainstream" Popular Domination.

Yeah my views are considered heresy perhaps, but i wont pick up rocks & throw because other's are, And For the Record I was indeed Speaking of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, 12 Years of Complete and Utter Misery, not that im compaining by any means, just giving the Facts i feel comfortable sharing.

I dont think my comments r so far off thread when you concider i stoped taking Morphine after about 3 years with hardly any withdrawal symptoms to speak of(Smoking cannabis @ the time) i beleive now it would have been virtually unnoticeble, with vaporisation, A much underated and unknown form of cannabis consumption (5 to 8% aussie vape)

There is Much Misinformation and Subterfuge surrounding cannabis for Purely "Political" reasons based on Greed, Something we all know all too well, if not were either Lying to ourselves or Ignorant(different types of ignorance of course), Me Im thru with Lying to Myself and Giving up my Own Freedoms

[cannaboiler]

Apparently in "More Human Times" in the 1920 to 1930s american doctors perscribed cannabis to children ( EXrtacts etc) and Aged people alike, with much benifit, However "Politics" became involved with Greed,

I don't want to see war on Substances (ludicrous concept) or attacks on people's live's, However i would like to see an end to A lot of very Human Behaviours, I want a world run by Evolved human beings, Not an Evil hatefull "Nanny State" bent on Control at all costs, Happy to Snuff the life of people they refer to as "Undesirable" (china Singapore etc. yes my Dead uncle was held in Changi in WW2 Ironically) we just Jail for life here in Oz , How civilized of "US"

Yeah Burn Witch Burn, hey

"Its not about Authority it's all about Reality"

And it amazes me how the rant about the Crazed meth head comes up to justify "AuthoritarianISM" seriously Seen the news lately 24 yo Tradie kicked to Death in pub Brawl, Its no big deal hey, its normal to get pissed, boys will be boys hey, Bit of Rape and "Smack the Missus down" all good white Trash stuff, Thats Culture I can Easily Reject, That and Greed is Good.

Edited September 10, 2008 by cannaboiler

[baphomet]

"It's Got "Everything" to do with it do you not understand the concept of Connectivity bro(sorry a pinch of scarcasm there)"

Obviously not, maybe you could explain it to me then?

"Appeasement in the Face of Aggression Begets more Aggression, Simply But if The Bully Gets his way Once!!!"

Just the other day people here were telling me that violence only begets more violence, so which one of these simple minded statements is correct? Cause they both contradict each other!!

"i stoped taking Morphine after about 3 years with hardly any withdrawal symptoms"

What sort and how much? Why were you on morphine for 3 years if you don't mind me asking??

[cannaboiler]

Violence begets violence/ Appeasement ? or Passive resistance, Its not a black or white, right or wrong one size fits all world or Universe. Ghandi is my inspiration ,although i dont want to emulate him myself, sorry i have a disabled Mum to take care of fo now.

Slow release morph 120 mg per day,IMO addicion is a state of mind when I have access to an Enhancment such as Cannabis in its Healthy form.

The first last, Mate if i have to answer that, you really need to better research "History" and consider Critical Thinking as opposed to Blind Faith and Obedience, Remeber the the Nazis defence in the war crimes tribunal's "We were only following Orders" Look into to the "Bush (President's) family on the internet, very Disturbing reading i Gave up on.

At any rate baphomet you are completely entitled to you opinion's, and im really not tring to "Convince" anyone of anything just let the communtiy know upfront my leaning's and Experience, which hopefully may of benifit to someone, its certainly not my mission to be Political just reliable, sensible, And Independant.

[Re-Grifter]

@baphomet:

I believe it should be legal for one to be able to possess....ooooooh, saaaayyy... under an oz of weed for personal use....do you agree?

[Teotzlcoatl]

Did anybody read my post? Or consider what I said?

I think botanicals should legal (in their living and dried forms) and synthetic psychoactive drugs should be illegal (including distilled alcohol).

What do y'all think?

Read post #26 for a better explaination.

[nabraxas]

which is why it should be illegal, our governments need to protect people who are stupid enough to use it from their own stupidity and protect us from dangerous psychotic people such as them!

you're talking about guns right?

Gun owners more likely to commit suicide

http://story.malaysiasun.com/index.php/ct/...id/402747/cs/1/

[notguilty]

http://www.csp.org/docs/CSPamiciUDV200509.pdf

interesting points if you have the time to read it

[Ace]

Did anybody read my post? Or consider what I said?

I think botanicals should legal (in their living and dried forms) and synthetic psychoactive drugs should be illegal (including distilled alcohol).

Yep, I read it and agree with some but certainly not all of your points. As much as I bitch about alcohol, I dont want to see it become scheduled. That be like mummy saying no because I (or my siblings, metaphorically speaking) cant play nicely so I cant have my toys to enjoy and share with my friends. Fact of the matter is that alcohol can be used in social (and solitary) settings quite safely, it is just that some people abuse it (i.e. wind up in hospital with tubes down their throats while they are unconcious). Would it really be fair to take away something that has been used for millenia in fairly sensible and even religious settings? Seems a bit hypocritical if cannabis were to be legalised and alcohol made illegal (a role reversal of current laws).

The reason that I and most people say alcohol should be illegalised is because it contradicts the laws about other similar substances that are currently illegal (cannabis, lophophora, MDMA, etc). There are several 'schedule 1's' that are fairly harmless to society (at least if they are used sensibly) and these INCLUDE non-plant related substances such as MDMA. Pure MDMA is actually vitually non-toxic (from my readings both in books and online) and it can be used very successfully in suitable theraputic settings as well as being a fairly mellow (and almost always an anger-free) way to spend a night out or even a quiet one in. Why ban this substance just because it isn't of botanical origins?

If any system for overhauling the current illicit drug system is going to be the most effective, it will be one that is based entirely on scientific evidence, not one that outlaws things because of their origins - from nature or a lab. Stuff from nature can be very much deadly (just pick up a book about natural poisons), stuff from labs can be very much beneficial (ever been to a pharmacist or seen a doc when you were crook?). The only reason why MDMA is currently dangerous is because people are given pills with god-knows-what in them in the hope that they have the real deal. The only deaths I've read that related to MDMA were cases where people had consumed way too much water in a short time, literally drowning in themselves and those who had come across other substances being labelled MDMA. If they were from a pharmacist with accurate dosages and correct labels, none of that crap would be happening. This is where the 'out-of-date drug laws are hurting people' IMO (as well as that in the first post, of course).

[baphomet]

you're talking about guns right?

http://story.malaysiasun.com/index.php/ct/...id/402747/cs/1/

No, I was talking about drugs like meth! It should be banned!!

If you wanna talk about gun laws I'm happy to do that and have done so in several other threads, I'm starting to think someone should start a thread directly related to gun control cause the gun control debate has hijacked 3 threads in the last week. Likewise this drug law thing gets brought up over and over again and I end up having to repeat myself.

People who live in tall buildings are more likely to commit suicide by jumping from a tall building, should we ban tall buildings? People who live near train tracks are more likely to die by jumping in front of a train, do we ban trains too?

Did you read the comments? I like this one and it is the point I have been trying to make all along. "That is way of the Nazis, Burmese Junta, Communist China, North Korea and all the dictators do, ban gun ownership."

"Did anybody read my post? Or consider what I said? I think botanicals should legal (in their living and dried forms) and synthetic psychoactive drugs should be illegal (including distilled alcohol). What do y'all think?"

"@baphomet: I believe it should be legal for one to be able to possess....ooooooh, saaaayyy... under an oz of weed for personal use....do you agree?"

Sorry Teotz, I'm not sure I agree to be honest. It pisses me off that I can't get aya but then again I don't want little kids getting it and videotaping themselves chucking and posting it on you tube like they do in the US. It seems to me like they are profaning a plant that is sacred to some people and it pisses me off even more. I think Brazil has got it right! Make it legal for the churches and legal to grow and everyone else can fuck off! I would be happy with our laws if only I could actually grow the shit down here, it's almost impossible!

Things like mushrooms, I'm not so sure either.. Most of the time I just laugh my ass off but I've had some bad experiences and I wouldn't want them more freely available to people with a mental illness or people who might develop a mental illness from their use, I've seen some otherwise healthy people develop mental illness from taking them! I'm not sure it is such a good idea making shit like amanita easily available over the net either, it will definitely increase usage among people who would only consider them a harmless joke. If people want to take this shit then they can learn about them and go find them themselves IMO.

As for weed, I haven't thought about it enough, I don't believe that people should go to jail for personal use of cannabis but neither does our current legal system anyway really (no matter what you might say). It should probably be decriminalised but not made more freely available IMO. It made me psychotic, paranoid, unmotivated, totally fucked my memory, wrecked my school life, made me addicted, less fit, cost me money and has adversely effected my life in other ways I don't care to mention, however I would still like to be able to grow and smoke it in later life if I so choose. When I see a picture of crystal covered buds I drool and when I smell the shit I crave like mad but I know damn well that if I smoke it after being straight for so long, my heart will go 1,000,000mph and feel like it is going to explode and I will become anxious and probably wish I never did it.

Although I may smoke again one day I would like it to be as hard as possible for my children to get hold of, this may seem hypocritical but that's the way it is.

"Pure MDMA is actually vitually non-toxic (from my readings both in books and online) and it can be used very successfully in suitable theraputic settings as well as being a fairly mellow (and almost always an anger-free) way to spend a night out or even a quiet one in"

Do you believe everything you read? Try this http://www.gulligo.com/

Edited September 11, 2008 by baphomet

[Teotzlcoatl]

I'm sorry man, but God's plants should be legal, just cause cannabis made you feel shitty and mushrooms might make some people freak doesn't mean shit.

I can get cannabis SO MUCH EASIER than alcohol!!!

Psychoactive drugs of ANY SORT including caffeine, sugar, nicotine, etc. should NOT be given to people under that ages of 17-19.

Leaving intoxicating botanicals legal, but the prepared forms illegal (such as hash) allows the people who know and respect the plants (the growers) to continue using natural intoxicants with a little know-how and hard work in their own homes and out of public view.

Edited September 11, 2008 by Teotz'

[nabraxas]

should we ban tall buildings

You don't see the irony?

your argument against drugs like meth & H ie: "to protect people who are stupid enough to use it from their own stupidity and protect us from dangerous psychotic people"

mirrors the argument ov most gun control advocates.

[Ace]

Do you believe everything you read? Try this http://www.gulligo.com/

No, I read to educate myself and I'm smart enough to decide what seems like fact and what seems to be fiction (or complete rubbish). Your link is both offensive and degrading (just ask SC - I'm a big sook), not to mention completely worthless and irrelavent. If you have factual evidence (not just some 'yeah I know a guy who's a tool because he did E for ages' or one of your many stories about how dozens of different substances have stuffed you about over the years - not trying to offend) about MDMA being a real danger when used sensibly (everywhere from therapy to even in a clubbing/doof scene), then I'd honestly love to see it (no hints of sarcasm, I enjoy reading both sides of the coin). Yes there is information out there about it being quite dangerous if used in huge amounts regularly (everything has a dangerous point [from caffeine to sugar and heroin to paracetamol], its all about sensible use), but in sensible quantities on the odd occasion with actual MDMA (not just a 'pill'), there is very, very little info about its dangers (at least from what I can find).

Psychoactive drugs of ANY SORT including caffeine, sugar, nicotine, etc. should NOT be given to people under that ages of 17-19.

Tell that to your average 10 year old who is buzzing on caffinated sugar-filled drinks while they stare at a TV for hours on end The beauty of having your own kids is that you can impose your ideals and authority on them, however you cant do that on a whole country (unless your in the top job of course).

Edited September 11, 2008 by Ace

[baphomet]

You don't see the irony? your argument against drugs like meth & H ie: "to protect people who are stupid enough to use it from their own stupidity and protect us from dangerous psychotic people"

mirrors the argument ov most gun control advocates.

No it doesn't! They are completely different issues!! Gun control has been responsible for the deaths of far more people than it has saved and guns have a valuable purpose at least at this point in time! What benefit does meth have for society that outweighs the negative?

"Do you believe everything you read? Try this http://www.gulligo.com/ "

huh.gif No, I read to educate myself and I'm smart enough to decide what seems like fact and what seems to be fiction (or complete rubbish). Your link is both offensive and degrading (just ask SC - I'm a big sook), not to mention completely worthless and irrelavent. If you have factual evidence (not just some 'yeah I know a guy who's a tool because he did E for ages' or one of your many stories about how dozens of different substances have stuffed you about over the years - not trying to offend) about MDMA being a real danger when used sensibly (everywhere from therapy to even in a clubbing/doof scene), then I'd honestly love to see it (no hints of sarcasm, I enjoy reading both sides of the coin). Yes there is information out there about it being quite dangerous if used in huge amounts regularly (everything has a dangerous point [from caffeine to sugar and heroin to paracetamol], its all about sensible use), but in sensible quantities on the odd occasion with actual MDMA (not just a 'pill'), there is very, very little info about its dangers (at least from what I can find).

Lol, I thought it was hilarious, lighten up a bit buddy! I think SC is right, you are a big sook!!

Please don't take ofence but IMO you must fall into the category of people who just don't have enough life experience to really know what they are talking about in relation to this issue. While it may be true that there is not an abundance of scientific research on MDMA, it would help if you tried doing a search using keywords like "MDMA harmful" rather than just "MDMA harmless" for example. While I believe you may be right and some people may be able to use it occasionally without suffering too much noticeable damage, your original comment about it being "virtually non toxic" is bullshit!

Edited September 11, 2008 by baphomet

[Ace]

@ Baphomet - comments taken onboard. I'll do a bit more reading about MDMA and get back to you Your right I am a sook (I occasionally miss online humour/sarcasm) and lack life experience (much more a cactus collector than pill popper/general consumer). Hardening up process initiated

Edited September 11, 2008 by Ace

[Re-Grifter]

Gee, no obvious agenda's here people.

Baphomet, have you been involved in treating addiction or something like that?....and while i agree with some of your more intelligent points, i have noticed there is an alarming....."father knows best".... condescending, lecturing tone to just about all of your posts...... ....mmmm,kay?....

[baphomet]

@ Baphomet - comments taken onboard. I'll do a bit more reading about MDMA and get back to you Your right I am a sook (I occasionally miss online humour/sarcasm) and lack life experience (much more a cactus collector than pill popper/general consumer). Hardening up process initiated

Lol, that's the spirit I know I can seem like a bit of an asshole sometimes but I think other people take me more seriously than I take myself.

"have you been involved in treating addiction or something like that?"

Just my own addictions!

"Gee, no obvious agenda's here people. i have noticed there is an alarming....."father knows best".... condescending, lecturing tone to just about all of your posts...... huh.gif....mmmm,kay?...."

No agenda other than telling the truth, giving a much needed dose of reality where needed and keeping this discussion interesting and balanced! On another australian ethno forum the admin himself is spreading lies about drugs like GHB being completely harmless and a good weight loss drug. While the media may have hyped the whole GHB thing a little, and admittedly I have never tried GHB (that was when the rave scene turned to shit IMO and I got out) I highly doubt his statements are true and I'm allergic to bullshit! It is irresponsible for people like him to go around spreading potentially harmful lies like that and I will speak out whenever I smell the evil stench of crap! Likewise we have people who are members on both forums saying (and I quote) shit like "I support the responsible recreational use of opiates", they speak out of pure ignorance! Using opiates for recreation is playing with fire and can hardly be described as "responsible"! This is coming from people who are free basing codine FFS.. That shit is useless! (recreationaly anyway) They occasionally have the equivalent of one more panadine fort than is recommended by the doctor and give advice on the recreational use of opiates? GTF outa here!!!

Don't let my avatar fool you! When I speak about opiates and amphetamines I speak from experience even if I do seem condescending at times. It has nothing to do with "take it from daddy", personal experience is priceless and unless you have any in the area in which you speak then to me your opinions hold far less weight, if andy or someone with similar experiences has a problem with something I have said then I will take it very seriously indeed.

EDIT: I know some people make poppy seed tea, etc and I'm sure they won't get addicted to that but lets not confuse that with refined/synthetic opiates like heroin or oxycontin. Big difference!

Edited September 11, 2008 by baphomet

[notguilty]

Out-of-date drug laws are hurting people

Is it fair to say that nature should not be bound by any law other than the law of nature but any refinement of nature should be regulated? sounds simple enough. (yes cause I am simple )

[Ace]

Is it fair to say that nature should not be bound by any law other than the law of nature but any refinement of nature should be regulated? sounds simple enough. (yes cause I am simple )

I think that was Teotz' main thought. I still disagree and I think a lot of people here do. Mainly in the thoughts that yes, all plants should be legal to grow/consume at one's will, but several restricted chems should also fall under that category (IMO at least). Again, I think it really needs to be looked at in a legitimate harm reduction based scientific approach, not the current approach which is out of date and causing huge problems (especially in the US). The fact that people still think current drug laws are based on harm reduction is rubbish - there is plenty of recent threads (and stuff in this one) to back that statement up, so I wont rabbit on about them again.

Edited September 11, 2008 by Ace

[t st tantra]

still i see it as something i could comfortably live with..........and that 'the other side' might to?

a consensus point from which change can flow............

t s t .

[Storm crow]

People are very swift to blame the drug and not the individual for actions that ensue after one has taken a drug. Perhaps if there was less control and more 'education' which is a rather loaded term in this day and age, where all manner of rubbish is touted as 'educational' concerning all manner of substances, we might see less harm coming from drug interactions. People also seem to feel that it is far easier to blame an individual for certain behaviours when a drug is involved rather than looking at the set of circumstances that might have helped that person to evolve into who they are (as shown by their recent actions).

I'm not trying to excuse behaviours or justify them, but I find it rather ironic on these ethnobotanical forums that certain plants are deemed 'divine' whilst others are demonised. It also seems ironic to me that opiate addicts who are addicted to relatively harmless substances as far as the interaction on their bodies goes are put on a synthetic substances like methadone, something that is very harmful in the long-term to human bodies.

Why should we ever bother with synthetic substances when the plant they come from is good enough medicine?

[nabraxas]

No it doesn't!

yes it does. The article on gun owners & suicide is being used by the gun control lobby to argue that gun owners need protecting from themselves, & the reason for bans on fully automatic weapons in this country was to "protect us from dangerous psychotic people" like Martin Bryant.

They are completely different issues!!

seems to me they are both about personal freedom & responsibility.

Gun control has been responsible for the deaths of far more people than it has saved

& prohibition ov drugs has also been responsible for the deaths of far more people than it has saved.

What benefit does meth have for society that outweighs the negative?

i don't know how huge the negative is. But i know hundreds ov people who take meth occasionally.

They generally always have a good time & none ov them are involved in violent crime.

Many ov them would never have got their degrees if it wasn't for meth.

And of course the fighter pilots in the invasion ov Iraq wouldn't have been able to deliver the "shock & awe" if they hadn't been given amphetamines to keep them going....

[notguilty]

I think I already pasted this, It would be nice if citations and references were included but it is to the point and worth a read.

http://www.australian-news.com.au/drugs.htm