Bag searches in shops.

[ballzac]

I went to Dan Murphy's last night and purchased two small bottles of imported beer. After I had paid for them I was about to put them in my bag, and the clerk asked me if I minded if he looked in my bag. I politely said, "yes I do mind, thanks for asking." I continued to put the beers in my bag and he asked me again if he could look in my bag. I said, again politely, "No thank you." I left the store and heard him calling security. A security guard came out of the shop, followed by the clerk that served me, and at least one other person from the store. The security guard told me that I have to return the items. I told him that I paid for the items and I am not giving them back. He asked to see the receipt, and I handed it to him. He then said that I had to show him what was in my bag. I asked, "I have to show you what's in my bag?" and he said, "Yes." I started unzipping my bag, but I didn't want there to be any confusion about whether I was consenting or not, so I turned to the others who were there, and said loudly, "I want it noted that I am not consenting to this search." The security guard said,"Clearly you are." I zipped up my bag again, and asked him again if I had to show him what was in my bag. He said, "I'd like you to." Haha. I asked again and he said, "you should." I asked a third time, and he said, "If you don't, then I'll show the footage we have of you to the police." I couldn't help laughing out loud at this one. He knew this was going downhill for him. I said, "That's fine." In retrospect, probably not smart to consent to something like that either, but I think I did pretty well over all. He said that I was permanently banned from the store from now on. I put out my hand for my receipt back, and he handed it to me and I walked away.

I generally refuse to let people look in my bag. I usually just get a bewildered look from the checkout chick at coles before I leave. To be fair, I haven't been asked to be searched at a coles in a couple of years. They seem to be pretty good these days. Just one more reason to prefer coles over safeway. I have at times needed to have a quick discussion on legal issues with a security guard at electronics stores or whatnot before I go. Sometimes they’re angry sometimes they’re not. But this is the first time I've been repeatedly lied to about my rights, and bullied into almost giving up these rights. It was an interesting experience. I think the hardest part is that you get an adrenaline rush, and it makes you want to either get angry, or to just do what they say. But you really need to be polite, but firmly stand your ground. It’s the middle road, and it’s difficult when your heart is pounding and you have adrenaline running through your veins. I think I did pretty well. I’m proud of myself. It’s a shame we don’t have the same right with police, but there are other analogous rights that we have when dealing with police, like the right to remain silent, and as discussed in that link with the law prof. and detective, they will tell you every story to get you to waive that right.

Anyway, I looked on the Dan Murphy’s website, and on their privacy policy, they have these two statements:

“Dan Murphy’s is committed to the principle of protecting an individual’s privacy.”

and

“All staff and contractors are obliged to respect your privacy.”

The way I see it, banning me from the store because I exercise my right to not be searched does not constitute respect for my privacy.

I called the Dan Murphy’s head office, and the guy sounded pretty baffled that I had been told I was banned, but said he couldn’t deal with it and took my details and said that the area manager would call me back. Haven’t had a call back yet, but I only called about 90 minutes before end of business hours today, so hopefully he’ll call on Monday. Otherwise I will have to be persistent and call back. I would love to get a personal apology from the security guard.

A similar thing happened to my mum at coles a few years back, and after she called, she got a call back from the manager apologising for the misunderstanding and said that the person who served her is being “counselled”. Ha. They said she is welcome in their store any time. Come to think of it, that was about the same time that coles seemed to stop asking to search bags. Haha.

[Ace]

Generally shops will have a sign saying something along the lines of 'if you proceed past this point you agree to allow staff to check your bag upon leaving the store' which makes for a 'contract' of sorts. If you refuse for the staff to look in the bags, I think the cops can be called (if needed) in order for your bags to be inspected. However different stores have different policies, so you may or may not have been in the wrong.

Its fair enough for them to check bags IMO - if someone has a bag or any item that could conceal (in an attempt steal) your merchandise (prams, other shopping bags, etc), you should be able to confirm if the customer has not stolen anything. If you have nothing to hide (their products), then I dont think there is any harm proving it to them.

That said, I much prefer to not go to the hassle of showing the shopkeep my groceries/personal stuff - it can be a pain (and occasionally embarrasing) especially if you have a screaming kid to deal with as you scurry on through the checkouts.

[Coschi]

Hmm... it must be the hair ballzac

Seriously though, good on you for sticking to your guns, it all sounds pretty rediculous imo

[shruman]

Good fucking on ya!, they can only search u if u do'nt consent if police are present.

Good fa stickin up for ya rights & fuck em.

Deffinitely follow it up cause gettin banned cause u do'nt consent to give up ur rights is bullshit.

Fuck em, Poxy Bastards.

[Lachy]

As I understand it, stores must have a sign up that is visible before entering the store if they intend to perform bag searches on customers. This is all the more important if they intend to detain those who refuse to consent to a bag search. The idea is based on principles of contract - offer, acceptance, consideration and all that - the acceptance and consideration in this case being the customer entering and walking around the store. Personally, I accept that bag searches are appropriate to deter and prevent shoplifting, however my inner civil libertarian would strongly condemn any store that attempts to coerce an individual into opening their bags on false pretenses, or fails to give proper notice to customers that bag searches are performed.

[ballzac]

Generally shops will have a sign saying something along the lines of 'if you proceed past this point you agree to allow staff to check your bag upon leaving the store' which makes for a 'contract' of sorts.

That's a binding contract if ever i saw one. I always tell my girlfriend it is a condition of entry into my house to give me a blowjob before she leaves. Unfortunately this doesn't always happen, and I don't think I am allowed to force her just because I told her when she entered. (Please note, this example was for analogy purposes only.)

If you have nothing to hide (their products), then I dont think there is any harm proving it to them.

Yes. It's great living in a society where one must prove one's innocence in order to not be treated as guilty.

[ThunderIdeal]

only once has a clerk ever been interested in what was in my bag (i had groceries from another store).

every other time they just glance in there in case their boss is watching. anything in the bag that's private can probably be considered safe if it's sitting underneath something.

good story though. i'd be worried that a cop walks past and the guard somehow gets them to search you. you could have just shown your bag and walked off but by protecting your privacy you actually get busted with illegal items.

[Jesus On Peyote]

Heheh nice story man

[Genesis]

Haha very nice man. Might I ask what Dan Murphy's it was? It makes me wanna go there and just fuck with the guys head. Next time go in there with a stack of dildos in your bag and when they ask to search it wait for the smart arse comments then sue. Lol,

Gen

[ThunderIdeal]

have like a jack-in-the-box, or those spring worms or anything that will explode in their face.

access to dan murphy's is pretty valuable. being banned, if possible, would stink.

[ENtiTY]

That sign is not legally binding and is there to fool people into thinking that the store staff have the right to search your bag on exit. The fact is that they have no right to search your bag or your person unless you consent to the search. If they suspect you have weapons they will forceably search you but run the risk of not finding any stolen goods or weapons and being sued for assult. Also staff/security shouldn't stop you from leaving a store or give you the impression that you will be stopped as this consitutes as an arrest or deprevation of liberty unless they have personally seen you take items from the premises without paying whilst having kept you in view at all times. If they find no stolen goods then that constitutes as a false arrest.

Generally security will try to bluff you into consent or stall you until police can arrive who are allowed to arrest on grounds of suspicion.

You could prolly take your case further legally if you wished ballzac.

Generally shops will have a sign saying something along the lines of 'if you proceed past this point you agree to allow staff to check your bag upon leaving the store' which makes for a 'contract' of sorts. If you refuse for the staff to look in the bags, I think the cops can be called (if needed) in order for your bags to be inspected. However different stores have different policies, so you may or may not have been in the wrong.

Its fair enough for them to check bags IMO - if someone has a bag or any item that could conceal (in an attempt steal) your merchandise (prams, other shopping bags, etc), you should be able to confirm if the customer has not stolen anything. If you have nothing to hide (their products), then I dont think there is any harm proving it to them.

That said, I much prefer to not go to the hassle of showing the shopkeep my groceries/personal stuff - it can be a pain (and occasionally embarrasing) especially if you have a screaming kid to deal with as you scurry on through the checkouts.

[ballzac]

only once has a clerk ever been interested in what was in my bag (i had groceries from another store).

One time I was too tired to be bothered declining a bag search and when I opened my bag I realised I already had a woody in there. I told them I didn't have to show them my bag and if I new there was a can in there I wouldn't have. A guy who worked there who was actually just walking past and heard was was happening basically told me to fuck off and never come back. I think that was also a Dan Murphy's. It was a large liquor store in Mount Waverley. After that I decided I wouldn't do it again.

you could have just shown your bag and walked off but by protecting your privacy you actually get busted with illegal items.

Yes, if I had have had illegal items in my bag I probably would have just shown them. Although I think a severed head may not go unquestioned.

Haha very nice man. Might I ask what Dan Murphy's it was? It makes me wanna go there and just fuck with the guys head. Next time go in there with a stack of dildos in your bag and when they ask to search it wait for the smart arse comments then sue. Lol,

Gen

It was bridge road in Richmond. Haha dildos would be hilarious, especially if you had lots of rubbery ones so jam-packed in your bag that they sprung out and hit other customers. And you could ask the guy at the checkout to help you pick them up. Haha

[apothecary]

Under the law, shops are within their rights to request a bag search. Customers are within their rights to refuse.

If customers refuse there are only three methods of legal recourse:

1. Ask the customer to leave (any ban is dependent on private property laws and therefore legal)

2. Refuse to sell them any goods

3. Call the police if there is a suspicion of shoplifting.

If the security guard or any other staff laid hands on you, this counts as detention/apprehension. Without reasonable suspicion/evidence of shoplifting (not consenting to a bag search does not constitute reasonable suspicion) this is unlawful detention, and you should make the possibility of legal action and bad community publicity blatantly obvious to the area manager.

Personally, I don't mind showing my bag contents to those who ask as usually it's because their manager is about and I have to open the bag anyway to put groceries in it.

Sometimes it all feels a bit silly. You indignantly fought for the contents of your bag to remain private but between your ISP, bank and the government any of your personal attributes actually worth keeping private are most likely already compromised or near-to-compromised to people who are actually in a position to abuse that privacy. Hell, you still sign on here and we know the cops frequent all aspects of the board.

[ballzac]

anything in the bag that's private can probably be considered safe if it's sitting underneath something.

Including stolen items from the store. This is what makes it so much of a farse, and why I don't play along. I'm really happy for them to catch people shoplifting, but I doubt this searching people's bags helps. I think it is just for appearances. I mean, if I wanted to steal from them, I would have worn a jacket with an inside pocket, put a bottle of vodka in it, and shown my bag to them on my way out. It's a joke.

I also worry about where we are heading as a society. When my parents were kids, people would have been offended if a shop owner asked to see in their bags, because it would have not been the norm. Now we just accept it. And most people don't even realise that they have a right to refuse.

access to dan murphy's is pretty valuable. being banned, if possible, would stink.

Much as I am a regular customer (and walk past several other pubs and bottle-shops to get there because I like their low prices and decent range), I will not be shattered if it turns out that I cannot go back. There are places that have an even better range of boutique beers, and although they are more expensive...let's just say the beer won't taste as 'sour'.

That sign is not legally binding and is there to fool people into thinking that the store staff have the right to search your bag on exit. The fact is that they have no right to search your bag or your person unless you consent to the search. If they suspect you have weapons they will forceably search you but run the risk of not finding any stolen goods or weapons and being sued for assult. Also staff/security shouldn't stop you from leaving a store or give you the impression that you will be stopped as this consitutes as an arrest or deprevation of liberty unless they have personally seen you take items from the premises without paying whilst having kept you in view at all times. If they find no stolen goods then that constitutes as a false arrest.

Generally security will try to bluff you into consent or stall you until police can arrive who are allowed to arrest on grounds of suspicion.

You could prolly take your case further legally if you wished ballzac.

I'm curious as to what grounds I would have for taking it further. He lied to me about whether or not I had to consent, but when he realised that I meant business, he backed down. I think the best I could hope for is an apology.

Another thing some people don't realise is that security guards have no special powers. They are just citizens in a uniform and may have done a three month course or something. They can arrest you, but it is a citizen's arrest.

[ballzac]

any ban is dependent on private property laws and therefore legal)

I've heard this before, and don't understand. Does this mean they could ban you because of the colour of your skin? Or your sexuality? Gender?

If so, that is fucked up. If not, then there must be a line drawn somewhere, and I wonder where that line is. I think that being banned simply because you know your rights and refuse to waive them is kind of along the same line. What about if I was banned for exercising my right to vote for a political party that they did not like.

If the security guard or any other staff laid hands on you, this counts as detention/apprehension. Without reasonable suspicion/evidence of shoplifting (not consenting to a bag search does not constitute reasonable suspicion) this is unlawful detention, and you should make the possibility of legal action and bad community publicity blatantly obvious to the area manager.

No one ever laid a hand on me.

Personally, I don't mind showing my bag contents to those who ask as usually it's because their manager is about and I have to open the bag anyway to put groceries in it.

Sometimes it all feels a bit silly. You indignantly fought for the contents of your bag to remain private but between your ISP, bank and the government any of your personal attributes actually worth keeping private are most likely already compromised or near-to-compromised to people who are actually in a position to abuse that privacy. Hell, you still sign on here and we know the cops frequent all aspects of the board.

I just think people should question stuff. Most people just go along with shit like this without ever realising that they don't have to. I don't really care if they look in my bag, but I don't like behaving like a sheep either. If they change the law, I will comply every time.

Yes I sign on here, and mention personal details that could be used to identify me. Hell, I've mention (on these boards) that I like whacking off to german bukkake. So does the fact that I sometimes willingly give out private and personal information mean that I should be compelled to against my wishes at other times? My answer would be no.

[apothecary]

I've heard this before, and don't understand. Does this mean they could ban you because of the colour of your skin? Or your sexuality? Gender?

If so, that is fucked up. If not, then there must be a line drawn somewhere, and I wonder where that line is. I think that being banned simply because you know your rights and refuse to waive them is kind of along the same line. What about if I was banned for exercising my right to vote for a political party that they did not like.

The private property laws are the same that govern entry into your own home. Discrimination laws and similar statutes provide protection against the cases you mention where the public has a reasonable expectation of entry.

I just think people should question stuff. Most people just go along with shit like this without ever realising that they don't have to. I don't really care if they look in my bag, but I don't like behaving like a sheep either. If they change the law, I will comply every time.

Yes I sign on here, and mention personal details that could be used to identify me. Hell, I've mention (on these boards) that I like whacking off to german bukkake. So does the fact that I sometimes willingly give out private and personal information mean that I should be compelled to against my wishes at other times? My answer would be no.

Come on man, you know that is not what I meant, I just find it ironic/amusing/bemusing that people rail against bag searches at Dan Murphies but not really against the much more important infringements on actual privacy that occur daily. I didn't see a post about your privacy being manhandled by the governments anti-terrorism phone tapping and sedition bills...why didn't you call head office to complain about that?

[ballzac]

I didn't see a post about your privacy being manhandled by the governments anti-terrorism phone tapping and sedition bills...why didn't you call head office to complain about that?

Hahaha. I missed your point before. Thanks for removing any ambiguity. You've got a good point. I guess it's easier for me to get annoyed when it's in my face. Or at least I know what I can do to stick up for myself, and with regards to the things you mentioned, it is easy to feel powerless. Still, I think this issue is important, and it's kind of insidious the way this stuff creeps into our culture without anyone noticing. You could figure out what the one most important thing to protest against is, and then everyone should protest about that...meanwhile all this other shit happens. I think there needs to be a bit of balance. I see no one arguing about their bags being searched. I see a niche to be filled.

[Genesis]

It was bridge road in Richmond. Haha dildos would be hilarious, especially if you had lots of rubbery ones so jam-packed in your bag that they sprung out and hit other customers. And you could ask the guy at the checkout to help you pick them up. Haha

That is it. I call on every Melbourne member of this forum to unite, with dildo bags, on Bridge road tomorrow night.

The guard will be shocked if it happens once, but 20 times, he wont know what is going on.

Ballzac, its all about the mind games. Calling managers does nothing, you have to fuck with this dudes head. And if you can use dildos to do it... Well that is just an upside.

Gen

*Edit: I just said your name out aloud and realised its Ball Sack, ahaha, I am a little slow tonight*

Edited August 1, 2008 by Genesis

[ballzac]

That is it. I call on every Melbourne member of this forum to unite, with dildo bags, on Bridge road tomorrow night.

The guard will be shocked if it happens once, but 20 times, he wont know what is going on.

Ballzac, its all about the mind games. Calling managers does nothing, you have to fuck with this dudes head. And if you can use dildos to do it... Well that is just an upside.

Gen

You're a champion. I just hope you're crazy enough to go and do it.

*Edit: I just said your name out aloud and realised its Ball Sack, ahaha, I am a little slow tonight*

I believe there is a thread somewhere about screen names.

[misteek]

ahaha i am going to laugh my ass off for a week if someone actually did that.

[Teotzlcoatl]

I could talk for hours about how cops convienced alot of my dumbass friends to search there cars (even when they had illegal things), hell one of my friends just handed 'em the keys.

One night when the cops were fuckin' with me, the cop was doing everything he could to arrest me. Keep half-way askin' me if he could search my car, intimidating me, and being a total dick... asked over and over if he could search my car, each time in a different sneaky way....

Each time I loudly and clearly stated " I do not consent to any unwarrented searchs". They didn't seem to enjoy that particular choice of words... but it leaves no room for interpretation and they don't like that... they wanna trick you into consenting, evil fucks!

He did a plain veiw search (lookin' in the windows, which is legal) but when he touched my car, I loudly said "Sir, I do not consent to any unwarrent searchs, please do not touch my vehicle"

They left soon after...

Know your rights! All my friends could have gotten away if they had done the same thing I had, but they all consented to searchs like fuckin' dumbasses.

Edited August 1, 2008 by Teotz'

[Bovine]

I worked at Coles briefly and during training I was told that although the sign at the front says it is a condition of entry that you show your bag, you are under no legal obligation to do so and furthermore if the customer refuses, simply say "ok, no problem" and let them leave. You are then supposed to alert security but that's as far as it goes. I always refuse, police included.

[Teotzlcoatl]

Ya I always, always, always refuse, even if you refuse and they continue to do a search the judge can throw out the evidence if he decides the cops did not have probable cause.

Just always say- "I do not consent to any unwarrented searchs", look directly at the cop car (there's a camera in there) and said it loudly and clearly.

[Auxin]

That is it. I call on every Melbourne member of this forum to unite, with dildo bags, on Bridge road tomorrow night.

The guard will be shocked if it happens once, but 20 times, he wont know what is going on.

Man, you really own enough dildos to fill the bags of 20 people? 20!?! Are you sure you wont have to use your butt plug collection to fill the last 5?

when he touched my car, I loudly said "Sir, I do not consent to any unwarrent searchs, please do not touch my vehicle"

Right on man!

[~shameless~]

Bags of dildos, i'll go one better

Wear a big thick puffy jacket or trench coat ( youll need it, so fucking cold lately) inside lined with sex toys, big orange and pink ones !!!! when the clerk/pseudo copper grabs you outside / inside store ( they always grab me with thier own hands believe it or not) say sure - while opening up your jacket like batman opens his wings, massive cheesy grin