Help with IDing this cacti

[Coschi]

I'm guessing someone's going to know what this is:

Same garden, to the left there is what I think is a t.scop (not sure what the furthest left one is, possibly a peruvian of some sort? pic is hard to tell from.. i couldn't get close enough

In another garden I saw this beauty of a pedro!

Is it morally wrong to take a cutting of someone's cacti without their permission?

Would the cacti be a little grumpy at you do you think?

[gilligan]

coschi...

first one is a long spined cereus peruvianus monstrose - i have one very similar, only the spines are a lot shorter...

second one looks similar to the CPM, but with a crestiform occurrence - is that fluff on the base though? If so, prob not a CPM

re your question...

i think it is a bit of poor form to steal the cuts... usually you'll find that if you go and talk to the people who own the cactus, they'll say yes, and probably give you more than you bargained for... I know i'd be pissed if someone flogged part of my cactus i guess the question you need to ask yourself is how would you feel if some prick flogged a piece of ur cacti? Esp if you knew you would've been able to take a piece from the back of it without disfiguring it? I think the cactus might be a bit pissed too, cos you'd prob go in at night with a splinter cell attack, and do it as quick as you could, possibly not cutting the cactus the right way and leaving it open to possibility of disease.

I thought the same at one stage, and instead went and asked for he cut, got 3 well rooted ones he had out the back and 2 good cuts (or thereabouts) for free... I was stoked, so gave him $30 for them all, and he was stoked as well...

Most people would be happy to share, if only you ask...

[TheFriendlyPlanter]

Are you sure that last one is even a pedro? Get a closer shot.

[ballzac]

What else would it be? It looks very pedro to me...I'm only asking, I'm no expert, but I just haven't seen anything that has that general form that isn't a pedro when you get a closer look.

[gilligan]

Looking like a pedro to me... Mighty fine specimen, wish it was mine

[TheFriendlyPlanter]

Prolly is a pedro but make sure it's not a lookalike before paying for a cut. Coschi its best to make sure! get a closer shot, could be a lookalike eg Pachycereus etc (but prolly not)

[ballzac]

It's not a pachycereus.

EDIT: Besides, what's wrong with paying for a cut of pachycereus?

Edited April 12, 2008 by ballzac

[Coschi]

100% pedro

[The Dude]

100% pedro

Talk to the owner, that is a very nice looking, obviously looked after cactus, I"d hate it if someone ripped me off with that. Ask him how much he'd be willing to give you, offer him $30 or a carton of something and see how much more he'll offer ya haha I dunno, don't rip it off though.

[Coschi]

I wouldn't rip it off

was just curious to see how people thought about that

[ballzac]

You weren't curious. You new how people would react. You just wanted to stir shit haha:P

[Vertmorpheus]

Of course, how "we" as keen cacti folks would feel about it probably differs to how the average ignorant mensch would feel...especially given the last one seems to be growing outside the property boundary. I wouldn't think it was nice to take the whole thing, and I would have a go at asking... but if they said no, I'd probably go back later and make one or two relieving cuts anyway. I'd be a bit pissy if it was mine, the next day, but then I wouldn't leave something I was THAT attached to growing on the OUTSIDE of my fence, either. In fact, I wouldn't let it get that tall , I'd keep it somewhere quiet and a couple metres tall, tops... lil like saying you're very attached to your car but happily leave it unlocked n windows down on the footpath all night.or that despite leaving it like that all night every night for weeks at time, theres something deeply sociopathic about it eventually being stolen by a collector and appreciative admirer.

Few would care about a hibiscus cutting, or pinching a few leaves off a nice lush succulent, a seedling from under an agave or pinching a few heads off a lions tail, etc... jack the price up to 30 bucks a foot, mix some drugs in, suddenly we's all political eh? Better report me to the ppl that run Nova Gardens in brissie, last time Iwas there I pocketed a rainbow chilli for seed! Shock, horror, gasp.

All my brugs are grown out from cuts taken without permission from a council owned specimen, I sleep ok at night as I think like books, plants tends to end up in the right hands, in time. Feels better too that the parent has since been leveled n concreted over thanks to "community concern". That doesnt mean I can run amok stealing anything I like... but it does mean that if I see a nice plant, with plenty to share, seemingly unappreciated...I'll pop a bit off. moreso if it's something of some... historical interest... that the owners don't seem to fully appreciate!

I'd sleep fine for removing one piece of the more "cluttered" growth of the last one without express permission, the ones near the house in earlier pics, different matter! Having said that, as was mentioned when you work without permission you dont tend to do your best work. Not in the dark, at least.

But seriously...its on the nature strip... do what feels natural I guess... it's also an imported species that soon enough will be hunted down and killed off wherever possible for political reasons... or eventually taxed by someone of a more enterprising bent who will drop the whole fucker into the back ofa ute and drive it home, destined for price fixing on ebay. Hardly a phlebo, or similar... and even then, I doubt anyone "asked permission" before taking seeds from phlebs, they just did what felt right and acted with good intentions I am sure...

I doubt very much that the pachs I see all come from "approved and sanctioned" stock, more likely 20th generation cuts originally stolen from some unsuspecting mountain tribe by a pair of white geezers with unpronouncable last names... but thats the dif between new money, n old money isnt it... old money is money where enough time has elasped, noone can hold the crimes that earnt it against you anymore

Safe side, I'd ask if they minded if you pinched a bit, and if they do seem to mind but strictly on princple of being paranoid urbanites living in an age of Personal Kingdoms rather than any actual concern for the plant, go back. Then you can mail me a couple feet and I'll make reassuring noises when the worry all gets too much.

btw, if I ever leave thousands of dollars worth of highly collectible, potentially psychadelic plant material untouched on the footpath, yez are all more than welcome to tax some As if I don't know better, it's your gain, and if I should know better, it's my loss...

Thousands of Nanas are going to an ethnobotanical Hades, methinks...

VM

[teonanacatl]

moving to ID subforum!!

Dont steal!!!

[ballzac]

I figured it was on their side of a neighbouring fence...could be on the nature strip. I guess Coschi can answer that for us.

Anyway, wherever it is, it is wrong to take some. It would be great if we could live in a world where you could keep your house and car unlocked all day, leave your expensive bike on your front lawn, and keep a giant san pedro in your front garden. Unfortunately, because people think what isn't well protected is rightfully theirs, we have to all be so bloody defensive of our shit.

If I lose my wallet, chances are I'll never see it again. If I leave my car (theoretically as I don't drive) unlocked all day, chances are it will get stolen. If I find a wallet with ID in it, I return it to the person. If I see an unlocked car, I don't steal it. Why? Because I want to create the kind of world I want to live in. Granted it will never happen, but I'm going to continue to not make it worse.

Of course, I can't say that I've never done things I am not proud of. I've probably nicked or vandalised shit when I was younger and pissed. But here we are discussing what OUGHT to be done, and it is undeniably clear that other people's stuff, no matter how much or how little WE believe they value that stuff, OUGHT NOT to be stolen.

[Coschi]

Well really, who ownes that cacti anyway?

The old Italian couple who happen to have it at the front of their front yard?

if so, why? because it came with the house?

Personally, I think if you choose to bring an object like that into your life, you live alongside it, not above it. When it comes to living things, I don't think anyone has the right to 'ownership' as such.

anyway, who owns all the cacti in the wilderness?

and who owns the land..? that one i really don't get

I'd ask out of respect to the couple who own the property. Not because it's their's to ask for a helping, but more if they'd mind if I entered their property and messed with their aesthetics mostly

edit: i just looked at that picture again, that is indeed one BIG fucker pedro

Edited April 14, 2008 by Coschi

[PD.]

Well really, who ownes that cacti anyway?

The old Italian couple

The old Italian couple who happen to have it at the front of their front yard?

Yes

if so, why? because it came with the house?

Yes or because they planted it there.

[ballzac]

Personally, I think if you choose to bring an object like that into your life, you live alongside it, not above it. When it comes to living things, I don't think anyone has the right to 'ownership' as such.

I remember this topic came up in the acacia thread (sad sight), but when someone (might have been el duderino) asked if that meant you don't own YOUR cacti, you seemed feel strongly that YOUR shit is YOUR shit and no one else has any right to it. Y'know, you're probably right in the big scheme of things, about people not ACTUALLY owning plants, in fact I don't think anyone actually owns ANYTHING. Still, I feel one should be consistant with ones own beliefs and not pick and choose philosophies when it suits them.

[Teotzlcoatl]

Coschi where do you live so all of us can come get free cacti out of your yard?

I don't believe in the ownership of land...but something you cultivate and care for...or something you build, buy or trade for should be reconigzed as *YOUR* property.

Why not ask the couple?

[rahli]

This ideaology of not owning plants (wildlife) has been put into effect under the wildlife permit system up here in the NT (not sure about elsewhere).

People wishing to keep native wildlife have to apply for a permit to keep their pet. In effect they do not own their pet they are only in posession of a permit to keep, which can be removed or not reissued if the wildlife has been mistreated or insufficent records keep on their behalf.

If you don't claim ownership of something, don't worry someone else will and if they they don't put their hand up quick enough the government will take it. Lets just hope their willing to share it with the people.

[Vertmorpheus]

Cant own land, or a species, but can own an individual specimen? what, and grow it in your pocket? what if you grow a medicinal thats good for say, stemming bleeding...and you grow it in "public"... if someone is bleeding out and a mate grabs some of "your plant", is it theft? has need overridden greed? or would you see that as thieves regardless? If I feel peckish, and when walking down the footpath see a large mulberry tree dangling into my path, and eat some fruits from my side of the fence, is it theft? I think theft has to involve intent to permanently deprive, after all... and I think most councils around aus say that any fruit or branches hanging out of your property are only yours in terms of liability and maintenence, if neighbours pick lemons on their side of the fence, you cant take them to court, anyway. Varies by area of course.

No hard n fast answers on this, itd be up to coschi, and the owners, if there are in fact any owners. Hard to tell from a couple happy snaps isnt it. Theft is obviously wrong, but then if its not "owned"...

its not necess a matter of only "owning" what you can bolt down... id say most of us would give the wallet to the owner... but how many of us would take a 50 dollar note found blowing around on the footpath to the copshop? I wouldnt, and I'd sleep ok. Call me eebil I wouldnt steal a car because its unlocked, but if its obviously (by the standards of any reasonable person) been abandoned in a public place, I wouldn't call the coppers if I saw someone pinching panels off it, etc. Shit even the RUBBISH is all "owned" by some greedy lil shit these days, we all crap on about a new social order and this n that but when it comes to things like people wanting unused, under utilised things for FREE people get a lil uptight... they find a newfound love for their DVD player... or get carried away and decide that the flowers on the garden by the footpath that are now poking thru the fence at easily pickable levels...are as "theirs" as the DVD player... which by my standards, and many fairly decent peoples standards, they are not on the same page at all. One is a finite item, its there or its not... a flower is such an ephemeral thing, barely there for starters, but then not gone forever if you take it... another will come.

Youd be a right bastard to just steal the whole of old Ethels rose bush... but if you see other large blooms and heaps of dead heads, whatnot, you wont get roasted by demons for snipping a nice opening bud for your nicer smelling half.

I'd ask Coschi, if it's obviously "owned" and lets face it, you can just tell from looking most of the time, in the flesh... either way I find old migrant couples are about as generous as they come, when asking for cuts of things especially cactus. But then if its in "public" and technically a "neglecterino", you made a sensible snip and took a bit home, i wouldn't want you knackered for it or anything either. Especially if you got it home and prop'd hell out if it, freely sharing when you could, in the understanding that it isnt "yours" youre just taking care of it. yes, if everyone did that thered be no cactus there... but if I want a future where people can and will actually USE public space, plants, whatever, then we have to accept that society will have to self regulate, understand that any more cuts taken this season will set it back, etc.

Its an old tentant of ethics that the wrongful use of something doesnt devalue the legitimate use of it... shouldnt ban all knives because someone stabs their neighbour, etc. And I think its a bit harsh to just say that unless you bought it, or had some human approval attached to your acquiring the genetics, you don't have the "right " to them at all... especially given how much nursery stock stems from illegally gathered seeds or cuts, illegally imported material, biopiracy in developing nations, things very much "stolen" from peoples private property, within their property boundaries, culturally shoplifted from "primitive" peoples and going on to make millions for vendors but fuck all for the geezers that originally found out about it... paid for doesnt mean "rightfully owned" to me, neither does "free" mean "stolen" by default.

Eh, I'm culturally biased anyways...leaving the suburban semantics to the devotees from now on

VM

[Coschi]

ahh hey hey Mr Ballzac, I correct you!

FYI my feelings on this whole thing is that these and all trees for whatever purpose are never owned, they are what they are and that's it. Logging companies do not own the trees they plant for future harvest regardless what paper says; I don't own any of the cacti or vines in my backyard; my parents don't own any of their little flower plants scattered around their front lawn.

these/all plants, animals, etc.. have their own energy, their own soul, their own lives

That's what I wrote,

that's the way I've always felt in this topic

Nice to see some genuine responses here interesting to see what people do have to say on such a topic. I'm certainly enjoying your responses VM, hehe just waiting till some fool blasts you for your honesty

ok, here's another one

If i plant a few cacti out in a nice patch of wilderness I find in the bush, who owns them then?

ohh, and if I have kids, do I own them?

[ballzac]

ahh hey hey Mr Ballzac, I correct you!

I was referring to your later response to the suggestion that if you are right then none of the cacti in your backyard actually belong to you.

and no you can't have the cacti which resides in my backyard

It shows that you believe that you have some particular right to the possession of your plants over and above others. I'd call that ownership.

I'm certainly enjoying your responses VM, hehe just waiting till some fool blasts you for your honesty

VM seems to get away with a lot more than we do for some reason :D

If i plant a few cacti out in a nice patch of wilderness I find in the bush, who owns them then?

If you had no special claim to that land then I guess technically it is anyone's for the taking, but if I came across them I think I would still let them be.

ohh, and if I have kids, do I own them?

To the extent that no-one has the right to grab them from your front yard, yes.

Edited April 15, 2008 by ballzac

[Vertmorpheus]

Haha, no worries Coschi... I wouldn't call someone a fool for having a dig at me, not that I feel theres anything to dig about as I still think "theft" is basically not very nice way to go about things... I was talking more about concept of public plant life and public space... but yeah if someone wants to err on the side of extreme caution and decency, its probably better than the "I have some divine right to anything that takes my fancy cos im special" approach that leads to some heinous acts of roughshod choppery. I'd probably think they were being a touch precious, but I tend to come over as a tad practical, so somewhere in there is probably the sensible middle ground hey. gets into something of a karmic numbers game, and THAT is an area thath as to be left to the individual I think.

I ask, 99.9 percent of the time, as I'm just like that anyway (if its owned that is, even if id dispute "ownership" I cant be stuffed upsetting some old dear) and growers usually can tell you much more about it then youd suss out from googling or your home library. I find plant people enormous fun to talk to, and they dont make me repeat things so often either haha. Get some history with it, most of the time a free tour of the yard and more than I bargained for. If I don't ask, its because its not owned (ie, growing in a ditch, weedy growth in otherwise nice native terrain, growing in an area the owners evidently dont get very uptight about, etc), or it IS owned but its the classic situation of large plant or tree, suburban area, branch that was at head level on path has been lopped off 20 years ago and has since coppiced and you can tell people have been knocking cuts off that lil site every two weeks for decades... as even if 95 percent of those cases I ask anyway (dont like verbals near plants, it upsets them haha) and 100 percent of THOSE times theyve said yes... usually with the tone of "noone else asks why did you bother?"... so the few times the owners seem to be out, or away, or im in arush, I'll pop a wee bit off. Certainly nothing to affect overall form, vigour, health or community harmony.

I have taken plantstock from decidedly private land but it was in the sense of nice plant, heaps of em, growing on block been vacant for a decade, neglected, shitty, junkies and feral cats kinda of country... suddenly the fencing goes up and you know theyre going to plant a townhouse bush on top of it all... then I'll rescue some samples. I don't often try to profit from plants, I'm usually very happy to just get a specimen or two so I can grow them on and if its something numbers are slimon , it doesnt get touched for as long as it takes to get up to "sharable" levels... anything iget "gifted" I usually never use until I've given some to someone else... closes the circle, in a way. Call me flakey. Practical too, also means if my batch suddenly drops off, theres some in reserve elsewhere. I worry enough about life for the future that I never "scorch the earth" or burn the bridges, on plantstock. To think otherwise might end up shooting a lot of peole in the feet.

I think of it as natural resources and energy and potential tends to flow to where its needed, the lowest and most efficient point, etc. But then I know I can be "trusted" whereas it seems some can't. Still. I think most people are actually pretty decent, if you give them a chance. Esp in suburban areas, most of the plantlife you can see is either very much in someones home (by any normal standards, regardless of if its inside or outside) or on the footpath...most footpath things are either council plantings, thousands of em, all fruiting or tipping at the same time, etc... or theyre nana plants, things that basicalyl someone scored a cut in the 40s and everyone in the street has knocked something off it since.. in which case I feel ok taking some small sensible cuts from the second largest or thereabout specimens, provided conditions are good and bla bla bla. I'd rather a nice plant somewhere else than a scabby one in my possession, if that makes any sense.

I have enough bits to play with and keep me quiet and I don't see anything special or different about the one cactus pictured... i actually like that cresty bit thats popped on the monstrose, hehe... so I'd leave it too, even if it was in public. I don't eat em so they tend to last awhile around here. But if someone that was thus far without had a look at their options and decided they felt more at ease taking a sensibly sized piece andthen babying it then they would paying 30 bucks plus postage for an unseen cut from non-localised stock, I wouldn;t hold it against them. Course, if I heard about all that I'd give them a pup anyway, so its kind of a useless line of thought.

Generally I figure if the reasonable average dickhead on the street just knows something is "owned" then it's owned, to me. Plenty of space behind ancient neglected fences that I see as public space (mainly due to the rest of the public seeing them the same way) and some stuff planted on footpaths is definitely "the owners" ie its mulched, watered, out the front of the one house in the street thats made a real effort at a nice garden...and id be pretty pissed at someone that wantonly damaged em, stole the whole thing, etc.Thats just being uncivil. Even if they're not "mine" what upsets me is the ...depriving others of the opportunity... But if you want to USE some of it, and itll grow back, no probs. Nice to ask if its owned, bit of a dog if it is or seems to be, and you dont... but I like to see people USING public space and materials, whether its kids catching guppies or old couples gathering seedlings that drop out of trees in state forest but land on mulch covered roads... if they dont pick em, theyll get run over or thunder will drown em in 24D haha... it's all about the impact you're making and the way your own conscience sits with things that matters to you.

Deep down, few people are so dead inside that they cant recognise dodgy when they see it, or do it. Don't be dodgy, you'll feel better, your life will seem quite improved by my lil impressions. Give, take, share, teach... whats the alternative, being a clued up hermit living in opulent excess? Just what the world doesnt need any more of.

As for getting away with more than the rest of yez... it's the dimples that do it... they're that big you can actually hear them thru the text. If you have the means, I highly recommend picking some up

Overall I just agree with whoever it was that said itd be nice if things didnt get stolen or abused just for being left in plain sight... I dream of a future with no shops, so I accept that things get used off plants I leave in public accessible places. Or they dont. But if they do I don't sook about it, unless someone does something piggish or greedy. I dont want unlocked cars to be stolen, i want the kind of world where someone can poke head into your house and say "hey bud, need a car, stick some fuel in yours an be back in an hour?" or where theres just a couple bio buses parked at the end of every street slash village enclave...and its just allll good... dreams hey. Or memories.

VM

Edited April 16, 2008 by Vertmorpheus