cycle Posted January 1, 2008 Share Posted January 1, 2008 Has anyone ever heard about any sort of paralysis related to the ingestions of subs? I heard about this happening and am interested in a discussion about the possible causes and other people's thinking about the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mu! Posted January 1, 2008 Share Posted January 1, 2008 yeah i get munted off the fuckers and gravitate towards the lowest point of the horizontal plane. as for the paralysis, well, i think im sidetracked now. maybe these leg munchin sub monsters have sucked up super human metal powers, who knows Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coschi Posted January 1, 2008 Share Posted January 1, 2008 most definitely cycle, and i know of at least two that can confirm just thisthe first time it hit me was about three hours into a 9 gram sub tripeverything was going smoothly until i started feeling a numbness in my extremeties as i was rolling a joint. I had been sitting in the same position on the couch so hadn't really noticed anything - the paralysis seems to kick in one you work the muscles a bit, ie rolling a joint. After a few minutes i knew there was no way i could roll it, and in fact i was have real trouble actually seeing what i was doing - not because i was tripping but because my eye focusing muscles were also reaching a stage of paralysis.I started to worry and though i might get myself a piece of toast and a glass of water. I stood up and got about 10 steps before I had to use the wall for support. I sat down a tried to eat the toast, a few bites and i couldn't move my mouth and what was in my mouth began to come out unwillingly.This lasted about 2 hours before the effect started to subsidemind you it was not a pleasant two hours, i was fearful that I was stuck with the effectsI'm not sure exactly what the paralysis' mechanism of action is but it's definitely there (and doesn't seem to be present with p.cubensis). Like I said i'm aware of many others who have had this exact same reponse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Posted January 1, 2008 Share Posted January 1, 2008 paralysis and subs go way back in folklore and published literature (stamets for 1)Ps cyanescens too as abovemust be some chem familiar to this groupcubes pans and azures dont have itwhich is why i take an academic interest in subs and ps cyans but wont eat them ne more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballzac Posted January 1, 2008 Share Posted January 1, 2008 (edited) Yep. Not just paralysis, but also weird muscular spasms (in my circle of friends we call them "wood-loving contortions"). They are most noticable when one laughs and has trouble controlling the facial muscles, but I have seen them cause people to involuntarily move like David Elsewhere.There is already a thread about the paralysis, but I CBF looking for it right now. I think the consensus was that it may be tannins or something leached out of the wood they grow on, as it only happens with wood-loving species.I think the key is to stay active during the trip and you should be able to avoid it getting out of control...or you may choose to avoid the woodloving species.I just looked for the thread...not hard to find <___base_url___>/uploads/emoticons/default_rolleyes.gifhttp://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/inde...mp;hl=paralysis Maybe it would've been better to resurrect the old one than to start a new one. Edited January 1, 2008 by ballzac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cycle Posted January 2, 2008 Author Share Posted January 2, 2008 Thanks ballzac. I did a search on paralysis before I started the thread but I couldn't find anything at the time.So it's a feature of woodlovers eh? Interesting. And interesting that it doesn't happen with other species. At the time I had a theory that it might have been related to the "mental" distance traveled (away form the body?). The effected region was the quadraceps. I know of two cases in two different people. The effect was more severe in one case. But both people had lasting numbness(?) in their legs for days following the experience. Coschi, this case was high dosage too, about 7.5g (5g then 2.5g after four hours) but doesn't sound anywhere near as severe as your story. Has that situation only happened to you on one occasion? Interestingly the first and second four hours were dramatically different in regards to other effects, may have been due to different flushes or different preservation techniques (the specimens were all over four years old!) The second four hours was transdimensional . But the paralysis only became evident after eight hours (total) when most of the more pronounced effects had subsided. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alkatrope Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 (edited) Yeah, ballzy linked the thread I made about this a while ago..I think it has alot to do with temperature. Edited January 3, 2008 by alkatrope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cycle Posted January 4, 2008 Author Share Posted January 4, 2008 There was no mention of temperature in the other thread. Would you mind explaining what you mean alkatrope? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alkatrope Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 Foaf would find the paralysis would kick in when the temperature became low.. eg all would be fine, they'd go outside in the 5-10 degree-ish weather and it would come on, but upon returning to the heated house feeling quickly returned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothecary Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 Seems this is only occuring on high doses?The majority of woodlover consumption I am guessing occurs during winter, simply due to availability?alkatrope, easy to test if it was legal, just ingest some subs on a balmy summer night? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t st tantra Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 (edited) blip,sorry! t s t . Edited January 4, 2008 by t st tantra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alkatrope Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 (edited) Sina:a) Depends what you call a high dosage, foaf generally eats around 4-8g.b ) I would say so.c) Yeah very simple to test in countries where legal Edited January 5, 2008 by alkatrope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballzac Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Then one would also have to wait till the next winter, and try previous years batch, to eliminate the possibility that the chemicals responsible for paralysis have degraded by the summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothecary Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Thought occured to me that a short soak ascorbic acid extraction might mitigate this? Much easier to ingest!Also best for experimental purposes to take an amount, make a long soak ascorbic acid extraction (to ensure any tannins or whatever this might be to come into sol'n) freeze it and then use the frozen stuff whenever appropriate (the sol'n is also standardised dosages rather than variable across the batch).If only it were legal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Thought occured to me that a short soak ascorbic acid extraction might mitigate this? Much easier to ingest!Also best for experimental purposes to take an amount, make a long soak ascorbic acid extraction (to ensure any tannins or whatever this might be to come into sol'n) freeze it and then use the frozen stuff whenever appropriate (the sol'n is also standardised dosages rather than variable across the batch).If only it were legal.I hope your method works apoth... for my netherlandian friend who only eats subs, now the woodloving paralysis can be a thing of the past.foaf once ingested 12g of sub powder, that was badly degraded and had very little effect. Next morning, eating toast chewing, mouth muscles stop working, starts flipping out that he's choking etc... but manages to spit it out.at school, the sensation for every step seems to be trailing in time, taking a while to catch up to the actual movements. + a few more other weird paralysis moments. So I'm thinking whatever is responsible decomposes a lot slower than the goodies.Worst experience was walking down a mountain after a long physically active day tripping on shroomies. Coming down the mountain my legs were collapsing underneath me, for the first time in my life I felt like an old man. Or just a dude with weak leg muscles. Anyhow now that I come to think of it, fingers and extremities were munted as hell. My facial muscles were munted from laughing too hard. It's a weird experience, and definitely common to subs. Did someone once mention that maybe blood sugar levels have something to do with it.When on subs, just think diabetic and remember to bring yer gummie bears and such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cycle Posted January 6, 2008 Author Share Posted January 6, 2008 I should have mentioned, in the story I heard the subs were dried well but about four years old! (and still active) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paradox Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 paralysis and subs go way back in folklore and published literature (stamets for 1)don't really see rev round thee parts much anymore but if anyone has a a ref for some of this literature, particularly stamets, i'd be well interested.unknown chemical constituents who's effects aren't appaent in low doses is definately something seriously worth keeping in mind when dosing high.i'd love to know of any published, comprehensive chemical analysis of wood loving psilocybes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DayLight Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 paralysis and subs go way back in folklore and published literature (stamets for 1)Ps cyanescens too as abovemust be some chem familiar to this groupcubes pans and azures dont have itwhich is why i take an academic interest in subs and ps cyans but wont eat them ne morei went to a lecture in the states in which stamets talked about azures causing paralysis, he said nothing about other species. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertmorpheus Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 (edited) Few theories.Botulism?edity bit... some kind of amanitoxin or something like it?Bufotenin, or at least something like it?Being so in your head you simply forget to move your legs for hours, til you stretch em out all at once and they just about fall off. There are af ew accounts in history of armies on the march eating tree bark and dying of odd pestilences, and also of people taking bark from sacred trees to make hides etc ending up with paralysis n leprosy.FOAFS that used to indulge in recently mentioned mouldy buds would get terrible cramps chills and leg numbness/tingles/ leg jerking when trying to sleep. Can't see tannins causing paralysis... though a nice cup of tea does settle us down, "medicinal" amounts of tannin are VERY noticeable to the tongue and the throat. Could be wrong.Thinking about your feet is an old trick for getting back into your body.VM Edited February 11, 2008 by Vertmorpheus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alkatrope Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 Few theories.Botulism?edity bit... some kind of amanitoxin or something like it?Bufotenin, or at least something like it?Being so in your head you simply forget to move your legs for hours, til you stretch em out all at once and they just about fall off. There are af ew accounts in history of armies on the march eating tree bark and dying of odd pestilences, and also of people taking bark from sacred trees to make hides etc ending up with paralysis n leprosy.FOAFS that used to indulge in recently mentioned mouldy buds would get terrible cramps chills and leg numbness/tingles/ leg jerking when trying to sleep. Can't see tannins causing paralysis... though a nice cup of tea does settle us down, "medicinal" amounts of tannin are VERY noticeable to the tongue and the throat. Could be wrong.Thinking about your feet is an old trick for getting back into your body.VMI'm quite sure it's physical.Botulism doesn't fit within the time frame.Never heard of bufotenin causing paralysis.. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DayLight Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 personally i think the paralysis is just from being really really high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballzac Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 personally i think the paralysis is just from being really really high.Could you elaborate? I'm not sure exactly what you mean.If you mean that the experience puts strain on your body, then that is probably true. I think what people are trying to ascertain is the precise reason that this is occuring. There must be a specific cause, and if it tends to only happen with woodlovers, then it is unlikely that it is the tryptamines or the tryptamine experience causing it. When this has happened to me, it has usually been after and not during the intense psychedelic experience. If being "really really high" caused paralysis, then this would be happening with all kinds of drugs that get people high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothecary Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 DayLight, then how come this specific, reproducible form of paralysis doesn't occur in high doses of say, cubensis?It's possible that a tryptamine is causing it bz, some 'psilo analogue RCs' so to speak, seem to induce paralysis, at least in a few people I've spoken to. Hardly concrete proof though.It's important to note that the metabolic pathway from amino acids to nitrogen representation (in this case as psilo alkaloids) seems to differ a lot between poo lovers and woodlovers is not nescessarily identical, even though the end result is 'close enough' to be considered the same, and it could be pretty much anything along this pathway causing the issue.EDIT: Ahh nevermind the first like bz got it covered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballzac Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 It's possible that a tryptamine is causing it bz, some 'psilo analogue RCs' so to speak, seem to induce paralysis, at least in a few people I've spoken to. Hardly concrete proof though.It's important to note that the metabolic pathway from amino acids to nitrogen representation (in this case as psilo alkaloids) seems to differ a lot between poo lovers and woodlovers is not nescessarily identical, even though the end result is 'close enough' to be considered the same, and it could be pretty much anything along this pathway causing the issue.Interesting. I haven't done much research into this stuff and am only aware of four tryptamines in mushrooms which will tend to be in all of them in varying quantities. Although it never occured to me that there are probably a whole host of precurcors and what-not that may have some biological activity even if not psychoactive.Are you saying that there may be actual tryptamines other than psilocin, psilocybin, baeocystin, and norbaeocystin in these mushrooms? Now that I think of it, are the latter two even tryptamines? I think I'll have to go do some reading. <___base_url___>/uploads/emoticons/default_blush.png Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DayLight Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 could you elaborate?i did not mean that paralysis occurs as a direct result of intoxication in general, but im sure we have all been tripping so hard, at one time or another, that movement was no longer possible. Psilocybin is a strange drug.but perhaps not. the question sina posed to me makes it seem like this has been reported beyond what i heard from stamets. has this been widley reported? I was quick to say it was probably just because they were tripping, but if this is reported in any significant numbers than perhaps not... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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