A sad site (image heavy)

[Coschi]

Hello peeps, just got back from Merimbula, had to cross all Gippsland to get there so i kept my eye out.

Firstly, i could not believe how much longifolia there is up there, especially for the 30kms coming into Eden, crazy!

Regarding obtusifolia, i visited a spot where i did in fact see a fallen tree (maybe 10 years old, had another huge tree collapse on it and pull it out of the ground - wish i was ready for that one)

but, branch trimming isn't really an option imo. They tend to grow straight up until they are much older at which point you may have some worth branches right up the top; i guess you could use a ladder though.. but also i believe the alkaloid concentration is greater at the lower parts of the trunk and diminishing as you go upwards

I stand by my thought that taking an entire, well aged tree is the go for both the tree and yourself

Far east Gippsland is a truly unique and magical location

Agreed, very much so

[~shameless~]

Yeah man- Have never quite made it to merimbula, probably soon though, but my favorite locality is 'mallacoota' Home of the largest flathead(fish) in the world

The longifolias would be growing well now, looking nice and healthy after some rain !! Also another notable species in these parts is the Acaia cognata. Best known for its common dwarf cultivar "green mist"

Not as common as Obtuse, but worth an admire along the way, very graceful weeping habit,

[Mycot]

I stand by my thought that taking an entire, well aged tree is the go for both the tree and yourself

The problem with this is that where "well aged trees" are not extremely plentifull, that if too many people take this line (and it wont take all that many) then "well aged trees" would very soon progress from becoming rare to becoming non-existant.

Then the young guys are in for it next.

Plenty of goodness in the phyllodes. It only takes two handfuls of phyllodes to make an aya brew. Use of the longer term entheogens would likely deminish demand for the short term high which dmt provides which can become very wasteful. We must consider sustainable approaches in both the harvesting and use.

Treating this plant as an endless recourse that can be squandered will quickly lead to troubles.

[toby]

The problem with this is that where "well aged trees" are not extremely plentifull, that if too many people take this line (and it wont take all. It only takes two handfuls of phyllodes to make an aya brew. .

Do you mean you simply use them as tea? Out this way there are plenty of young trees, but acacias just dont last on ridges! (due to fire rather than agressive harvesting..)

[Mycot]

Do you mean you simply use them as tea?

Although some have found some activity by itself, most combine with a MAOI such as Syrian Rue for full effect.

But yes, it is essentially that simple.

[Coschi]

I agree mycot

that's why i'm working on various plantations across australia

[folias]

First off, harvesting tree's is a very full on activity... it is often best to do it in groups of people... so much plant material comes out of it, it is often best to share it with groups of people who can make use of it.

Basically, the trees you want are the one's that are already about to fall over because of soil instability or age... or are about to fall over.

I would say, again, if you know where to go, there are plenty of 'well aged' trees... plenty of obtusifolias about the place... most pretty much inaccessible to human beings.

You are basically ending the life of a living being here... so a great deal of care must be taken.

Now, I don't want to get supersticous on people's asses, but I have known one person who just stripped bark off the trees... who I soon after found, was in jail. he seemed like a bit of a 'crim' to me... but at the time and still, these are the only two things that come to mind about this guy - that he just stripped the bark from trees and that he is now in jail.

Go figger.

I have also found, if I don't do right by the trees, they have the power to call consequences upon you... this may sound like some RPG scenario, but note the *very few* people who are actually able to keep doing this sort of thing... without having some kind of disaster or misfortune or burnout/madness occuring to them.

The burnout rate in this arena is very high...

It is very important to make contact with the sentience of the tree... with a group of people, if you don't come to some consensus about the tree... don't do anything...

Over ten years ago, I had a history with making flower essences, and so am reasonably adept at community with plants.

Most people, don't have a clue about this... but I am very certain it is THE IMPORTANT FACTOR in downloading tryptamines into a form useable and helpful to human beings.

That is, I think, the primary alchemy.

Pretty much, if a tree is on its way out, or very old, and it is the right tree - it will consent. Sometimes reluctantly, sometimes enthusiastically...

If it is young, if it has some living to do, it generally won't consent...

Also, my experience of these tree when smoking the tryptamines has often involved communicating with the tree consciousness!

This is a powerful teacher plant, if you are not in alignment with that teacher plant and its consciousness and have a resonance with that tree... then what are you doing?

Julian.

[-YT-]

Was wondering when Julian would make a post and i agree with what has been said in regards too sustainable harvesting and discouragin of ignorant practices & views... but certainly some things for people to think about before commiting to such endevours

I like that Julian mentioned that it is a living being people say they take that into consideration but do they really consider all the sides of the dice and that ones views and options about being right and doing right ultimately stems froms ones actions, involvment and intent

Most people should be able to tell if and when a plant is willing to work with them or when things are about to crash and burn, maybe more notice and involvement is needed on behalf of us as human beings especially in terms of relationships with non human beings like plants.

Besides all the bs i think threads like this can be really positive in terms of people understanding the real situation behind the situation.. whats really going down, and that the people who know keep posting and doing the funky jazz they do

[Coschi]

You make some really good points there Julian,

I've made mention of several of those points myself at some time or other

Basically, the trees you want are the one's that are already about to fall over because of soil instability or age... or are about to fall over.

Good point, thanks!

I would say, again, if you know where to go, there are plenty of 'well aged' trees... plenty of obtusifolias about the place... most pretty much inaccessible to human beings.

I'm surprised at how quickly they grow,

I visited a spot in East Gippsland that I went to about a year prior, and they have grown significant amounts most notably in their trunk width

I have also found, if I don't do right by the trees, they have the power to call consequences upon you... this may sound like some RPG scenario, but note the *very few* people who are actually able to keep doing this sort of thing... without having some kind of disaster or misfortune or burnout/madness occuring to them.

The burnout rate in this arena is very high...

we have a winner!

i'd say i did a few things at a certain time which ultimately amounted to a not-so-enjoyable experience resulting in me taking a large step back from all things related about 4 months ago. Not to say it was all the trees doing but they certainly played a part.

Fyi any breakthrough in the last 6 months has had a major influence of 'not quite right' attached. It's always otherworldly of course but there's something else, like a reluctance on the other side to bond

[Teljkon]

asdf

Edited December 19, 2021 by Teljkon

[Mycot]

Ummm, I'm not sure that "invasive species" really applies to Obtuse in the sense of becoming a real problem. No state has declared it a noxious weed. Or even appeared on an official weeds list.

Humans have always grown plants useful to itself, we'd likely starve otherwise.

Edited January 7, 2008 by Mycot

[folias]

And I'm not saying I am holier than thou here... if there is any mistakes to be made in this field... I have made them!

You can learn through your mistakes... but this is not a really forgiving territory I have to say.

I would know at least half a dozen people who have really just exploded into this craziness from doing this, which is just totally unlike how they usually are... and I have heard of a HEAP more... it is one of the more intense things you can do and not that many people can sustain the vibration...

But you know, the end result can be exceedingly wonderful, and despite all the hassles, and hard work, and legal status and so on.... people's lives are often changed from having contact with THAT reality.

But also, my advice to tryptamine activists is to discover the meanings in being grounded... using these tryptamines with beta carblolines or ayahuasca (especially) can really earth the experience and give it a human meaning... it can be a really good way to cleanse the system on all levels so you can travel more unimpeded and more openly, with more meaning, through the aethers... and also in this reality.

Julian.

Edited January 8, 2008 by folias

[Hagakure]

plants that provide us with drugs arent necessarily more important to the environment than those that dont provide us with drugs. sure there is a relationship with the plant cause you are getting something from it but when it comes to judgments about harvesting etc the ecosystem is what needs to be considered.

if a plant giving you dmt is prolific and non-native and ecologists say that if it is removed it will help more threatened plants regain numbers, then ringbark away.

if the consequences of removal are negative but they can be harvested sustainably then go for that.

if you had an environment that was being choked by a weed would you treat that weed with respect and let it survive on the basis that its making you trip?

if you would then you are putting your needs ahead of the environment's which is the same thing humans do when they remove plants in an unsustainable manner.

so, does anyone know the stance of rangers and the like on the removal of acacias from areas where they are not native?

and one other thing, if you are removing a whole tree, big trees, even dead ones, can be very important to the local ecosystem in terms of providing homes for other animals, helping to keep the water table down and preventing soil erosion (well if they are dead they arent as important for the last two situations but you get the idea).

in some cases removing smaller trees would do less damage to ecosystem than removing big ones.

it is a similar thing with fish, people often throw the small ones back and keep the big ones but for some species removing the big ones does more damage to the population as they are the most important breeders.

i dont know if this is the case with acacias.

[Conan Troutman]

Ummm, I'm not sure that "invasive species" really applies to Obtuse in the sense of becoming a real problem. No state has declared it a noxious weed. Or even appeared on an official weeds list.

Humans have always grown plants useful to itself, we'd likely starve otherwise.

Damn straight! where did u get that info from Coschi??

[PD.]

so, does anyone know the stance of rangers and the like on the removal of acacias from areas where they are not native?

Rangers actively seek out and remove A. baileyana from the parks in this area. I only found this out when i went to collect seed from a very large old tree only to find it in a large pile cut into lil pieces.

[apothecary]

But baileyana is classified as an environmental weed.

[Coschi]

Damn straight! where did u get that info from Coschi??

I'm not sure actually, can't find it mentioned anywhere

if it is a misconception then it seems that many other people also have the wrong idea so perhaps you could stop directing all your bullshit at me and contribute something worthwhile Conan

Edited January 8, 2008 by Coschi

[folias]

Hagakure wrote:

and one other thing, if you are removing a whole tree, big trees, even dead ones, can be very important to the local ecosystem in terms of providing homes for other animals, helping to keep the water table down and preventing soil erosion (well if they are dead they arent as important for the last two situations but you get the idea).

Often, removing old trees can give a lot of sun to the other plants.... and give the younger plants some space and sunlight to grow.

I remember Trout saying some years ago that these plants seem to have a very different view to death, than we often have... much less serious and more "whimsical" was the word he used, as I recall... and I agree, death is more like a transition for them.

These trees are very vulnerable... a fire can come through anytime, and they will be among the first plants to go... yet they often come back stronger than ever, some will retain their root system for many years while waves of fire come across and wipe out the trees... I've seen interconnected networks of huge tubers from which 2-3 year old trees grow.

They even need the fire so as to germinate the seeds! So Death of their exterior form is necessary for them to regenerate and live.

Whereas for the modern day human being, death of the physical body is often seen as the most evil thing there is... when, really, I've come to see wasting, preventing and abusing the present life force as representing the most "evil" we can do.

Life for its own sake is not necessarily meaningful. Death often needs to take place to bring more life... in ourselves, in our beliefs, in our institutions, in everything really... the end of something, often inevitably means the beginning of something else.

So many hold onto the life of the stale and old, not allowing the new to emerge.

In holding onto to "life", things can quickly become stale and old and boring, and we can therefore stagnate and cease to really grow or use our life beneficially.

Perhaps not so coincedentally, these trees can enable us to release what we are holding onto as our "life", our "ego" and see reality afreshly - unencumbered.

So when we die, when we truly let go, then we can be shown a very refreshed and powerful life as well.

Julian.

[The Dude]

dude, you are a champion!

[Coschi]

very nice Julian all very true

[gerbil]

and what if everyone did this?

I think we are kidding ourselves most of the time.

-------------------------------------------------------------

hiya J nice to see you round

[toby]

well yeah, the fire prone trees seem to have a pretty good attitude toward near death at least! and turn shrubby and tall within a short time, and here yes there seem to be pretty serious stands as opposed to the large lone or 2 bigger trees by the river which is to be expected yes? alot of places Acacias and dodoneas, dillwynias other midd type shrubs are the fire and the canopy if thast what it is in the sandy rocky areas is pretty much unscathed,!

mycot,, thankyou i kind of assumed the maoi, but also thought with these trees an A/B was neccessary on phyllodes?

would be pretty amazing to find that stage was unneccessary!

[MORG]

Agreed Gerbil.

I think you all walk a fine line in this self-justification of Acacia harvesting.

I remember Trout saying some years ago that these plants seem to have a very different view to death, than we often have... much less serious and more "whimsical" was the word he used, as I recall... and I agree, death is more like a transition for them.

Plants have no "view". They are not sentient, intentional agents. Plants (like the rest of life on this planet) are involuntary participants in the competition of life. Given the chance (and the capacity to listen, comprehend and communicate a response) any plant would prefer not to be destroyed by fire or man. A plant "wants" what is best for the propagation of its genes and that is to survive to a point at which it's reproductive output is maximised in regards to number and fitness of its offspring.

The adaptations of plants to fires are an adaptation to maximise this propagation and reproduction in the face of threatening processes. Ethical harvesting of any wild plant in its natural habitat is a balancing act of threatening processes. One mature plant removed from an unfragmented, healthy, protected ecosystem makes a tiny difference to the overall potential future of the population/ecosystem. If one person does it once a year then fine, this threatening process can be ignored. But tiny forces add up to large forces and we know what humans are like when it comes to exploiting their environment.

In the case of plants being harvested from areas outside their natural habitat, how sure are you that they are not naturally occurring? If the case is clear then I think removal from these areas is less harmful in that the ecosystem that they occur in is already obviously compromised. It's a continuum.

Environment:

Anthropogenically-transformed ecological wasteland <--------------------------------------------------> Pristine wilderness

Ethical harvest:

Open slather <-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> Do not touch

But ultimately the only ethical way to harvest is propagation.

Be careful of what you justify, it's a slippery slope to sad scenes of environmental pillaging.

[incognito]

In the case of plants being harvested from areas outside their natural habitat, how sure are you that they are not naturally occurring? If the case is clear then I think removal from these areas is less harmful in that the ecosystem that they occur in is already obviously compromised. It's a continuum.

this has been mentioned a few times already and i think its spot on

Plants have no "view".

thats crazy talk

Be careful of what you justify, it's a slippery slope to sad scenes of environmental pillaging

especially over the intranet where theres fuckloads of people reading, i mean id rather have peeps collecting (sick as this sounds ) for their spirtual growth and understanding, than kids hackingattrunks with tomahawks to get high. maybee far too late.

thanks for postinga picture of how ugly and gross a ringbarked tree looks like coschi, thats the last thing ueverwant to see taking a walk in nature. Natures for everyone. thats all i wanna sayreally , is ringbarking is FUCKED.

Edited January 9, 2008 by jono

[Hagakure]

good post morg