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Unfortunately, at least with obtusifolias, there isn't no way near enough root bark to make this kind of sustainable harvesting worthwhile... as the root bark is only thick enough to harvest from barely a few dozen centremetres into the ground and then it just tapers off into almost paper thin root bark quite quickly.

Julian.

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isnt this why correct pruning techniques where discussed?

this is the song that has no end.............................................................................

................................

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People harvesting acacias is not even a drop in the ocean of what is going on, on the planet, that is of ecological concern... I don't think.

It is absolutely ludicrous to be even talking about in my opinion.

So I don't think we should have any hesitation is razing old growth rainforest for DMT if necesary. (which it wouldn't be actually!)

Sigh. Have you ever heard of the precautionary principal Julian? It seems more like you obey the near-sighted philosophy of bugger-the-consequences-we'll-deal-with-it-later. It's this kind of mentality that has dominated human thought in the past and produced all these environmental problems that are so large that it makes ripping Acacias out of their habitat without regard just a drop in the bucket and therefore fine in your opinion.

God gave man dominion over the Earth to do whatever the fuck he wanted and it seems he's given you equal power. This is an out-dated, medieval attitude that needs revision.

You know why Curanderos in the Amazon don't give a fuck and will rip anything down for their own use? It doesn't make any impact because there's not many of them. They lead an ancient tribal lifestyle. High mortality rates in childhood and late middle-age keep their population numbers down. It's when societies advance that they need to become more responsible. If you go and live in the bush on your own without your internet connection and stop spreading this potentially damaging justification to millions of global onlookers you too will have little impact and we'll all stop complaining.

Everyone here seems to have this idea that it is a rare resource... it isn't.

Go back and read the entire thread. I don't think anyone's saying its rare. Any species is however potentially vulnerable and therefore requires a thought-out, sensible and ethical approach to harvest.

I too tire of this debate. I want to leave the following words for those that want to remove live Acacias from their natural habitat.

Stay the hell out of our National Parks. These are places set-aside for their biological significance and people's enjoyment. Some people capable of feeling enlightened and uplifted, refreshed and renewed by just being somewhere unspoilt do not deserve to have their experience ruined by those that require chemical means for their own enlightement, despite what you think the trees are telling you.

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Well, there are lots of DMT bearing acacias outside of national parks too... although the fact being that national parks are some of the few places left where the land hasn´t totally been cleared...

This isn´t about ¨chemical enlightenment¨or some self serving pseduo parasitic gain gained here... it is about a profound shift in human perception and visionary states of consciousness... which are generally not accessible in any other way.... many, many cultures on earth today use entheogens in their cultural initiations... and that is a recognition of the profound value and respect given to these plants...

Acacia trees are a major part of that culture in pretty much all of middle east, africa and australia - and very possibly in asia too. (with the more ancient and more modern use of the trees in all those cultures)

I believe that culture needs to become a global culture, that these ancient cultures and these new cultures need to assert our rights to utilise these plants (especially the acacias), so we can globally come to an and open and legal utilisation of these plants, where right utilisation and usage is brought into the public sphere.

Any species is however potentially vulnerable and therefore requires a thought-out, sensible and ethical approach to harvest.

and that is why I have posted in this thread....

If anyone can come up with a better way of harvesting... please post about your experiences!

The fact is, that if you want to collect wood from trees, you need to cut down the tree. If you need bark from the tree, you also need to cut it down.

There is no pruning technique which will work. people who talk about pruning have obviously never tried to "prune"

my suspicion is that a lot of people posting in this thread, have yet to fully appreciate the cultural and ontological signifigance of DMT.

look, I´m not saying "bugger the consequences", as I DON´T BELIEVE THERE ARE ANY OF ANY SIGNIFICANCE COMPARED TO WHAT IS BEING BROUGHT TO BEAR HERE.

God gave man dominion over the Earth to do whatever the fuck he wanted and it seems he's given you equal power. This is an out-dated, medieval attitude that needs revision.

If we leave the trees alone in the forrest, to live and die and just fall over (which a hell of a lot of them do, because they often live on mountains on sandy soil), then what is gained?

nothing.

As it stands, I believe we have everything to gain and the tree species have everything to gain... I do not believe, because of points raised above, that any species is seriously threatened...

We´ve got to live with this situation.

i.e. people want DMT. ---> the best and largest amount of DMT comes from the australian acacias ----> the trees generally have to be cut down to access that DMT.

What I´m saying, is that it doesn´t have to be a problem and is in fact, not a problem if we perceive it intelligently and without bias.

Over the years, this situation has become over-exaggerated, and inflamed, and quite heated... when in fact, for the most part, it is just that these molecules are getting out to the human population and I strongly believe this is what gaia wants and how can god not want more god molecules out there?

I believe that in the event of many people becoming aware of the human value of the acacias, we will find them being grown more commonly and people becoming more respectful and aware of the trees. And I believe this is already happening...

Again, I keep saying, there is no problem here... only in people´s heads it seems to me.

To put it in perspective, many more trees are being killed by state forrest loggers, than people who harvest tryptamines, who just clear fell whole areas... most all of that bark material just goes to waste.

When I go into a state forrest, and see whole tracts of land just ravaged and then burnt by loggers... my experience is not spoiled, because I have learnt that humans beings need these trees for their manga comics and ikea desks and dole forms... and the loggers need the money in order to feed their families... we live in a paradigm where this is considered more important than "mere nature", and morg is right that this medievel view still is the prevelant paradigm.

But I think that the majority of tryptamine harvesters don´t need to justify themselves in the face of that paradigm, and at least the people I am aware of are super careful and intelligent about how they go about this... it seems to me that those who are not, are the minority here.

Julian.

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But I think that the majority of tryptamine harvesters don´t need to justify themselves in the face of that paradigm, and at least the people I am aware of are super careful and intelligent about how they go about this.

Does that include the folks who go harvesting phlebs on Mt Buffalo? You have spent many posts on this and other forums justifying your harvests of this listed rare species, yet at EGA I overheard a discussion where you seemed to criticise other people for doing so? Does this mean you now think taking phleb material is no longer acceptable? And can we expect a similar backflip a few years down the track about the careless and wastefull acacia harvests as discussed in this thread?

There are quite a few other rare acacias with high tryptamine content [why is it always the rare ones?] yet none of the researchers are willing to share that information out of fear of what will happen to those populations. if the community had shown more restraint and a more educated approach to this I am sure that such information would have flowed much more freely. Phlebophylla was a good example of how greed and egotism make this community not all that different from other communities.

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look, I´m not saying "bugger the consequences", as I DON´T BELIEVE THERE ARE ANY OF ANY SIGNIFICANCE COMPARED TO WHAT IS BEING BROUGHT TO BEAR HERE.

For the sake of discussion, what if 'what is being brought to bear here', isn't? What if the tree bears no fruit?

Phlebophylla was a good example of how greed and egotism make this community not all that different from other communities.

In some regards I agree re this community being not unlike others....

It seems that a number of people have, and continue to, harvest phleb, yet concomitantly profess to be concerned with its conservation and protection from 'opportunists'.

But who gets labelled opportunistic and who genuine? How do we distinguish? Where do we draw the line re appropriate/acceptable levels of profit?

As far as I know folias does not profit in any financial sense..... unlike some others who do (or at least attempt to) in regards to wild-harvested acacias. And then there's those that aren't as up-front about their activities and don't seem to cop any flack.

Not taking sides here, but I think there is some interesting 'boundary-work' going on insofar as delineating what constitutes acceptable behaviour in this community...and the different tacks used to legitimise, justify or undermine.

Whether you agree with folias' stance or not, I think there's something to be said for transparency , especially when others seem to be operating under the radar.

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With the phlebs on mt buffalo I just think they are too young...just my opinion... so there is no backflip here... I think people who are thus inspired SHOULD go to Mt Buffalo and take some phyllodes from the trees (there is usually plenty of phyllodes on the ground)... but of course, they should wear disinfected space suits when doing so ;-)

It seems to me, that the mountain is huge and that the phlebophyllas are not in any great danger as long as people are relatively prudent and don't go willfully damaging the trees or taking too many phyllodes from the trees. And those people who would do this are in the distinct minority... again, the mountain is huge, you would do well to be able to access a lot of the phlebs growing on the mountain I think.

I don't know about this "greed" and "ego" thing related to phlebophylla... for the most part, it is just people looking for a good Australian tryptamine source... and mostly for brews. I don't think "greed" and "ego" are inspiring this kind of harvest... these are ancillary forces which are present, if we want to give them any credence at all...

It is pretty well known that the psychedelic scene often attracts those with the hugest egos... in some sense, it makes sense, as these are the people who would appear to need the medicine the most. On the other hand, some believe in having a big ego!

http://wilber.shambhala.com/html/books/ontast_mogobi.cfm/

At least one person is making a great deal of money by making brews from phlebophylla and charging money for that brew... I personally don't really have any problems with that. Other people certainly seem to.

I personally feel it is good the vibrational imprint material is getting it out there and helping people, and if it is through someone who has the experience and the know how, then why shouldn't they rake in the bucks if that is what they want?

They have their own karma and stuff, money doesn't make anyone happier... you know jesus said "it is easier for a rich man to go through the eye of a needle, than a rich man to go to heaven."

Alan Watts said, that is because to go to heaven, you must become "nothing" and rich people usually want to be someone or something, and get special treatment or whatever... and so they remain in their egoic prison.

I usually have compassion for rich people in that classic sense of being rich... although, I do believe in harnessing the power of money for much more than serving the self or ego... and when people get trapped into that story, then it can only really work against them, especially if they are enslaved to money or greed, which is really in our society.

I don't really see this as grossly in the psychedelic community...

The happiest people I have ever met were the poorest people in India... they were absolutely nothing...

You would hope that someone with that amount of awareness would be able to do some things with that money which would serve that nature of the consciousness of the plants... rather than serving just their own ego.

But clearly, getting the plant material out there in an intelligent is perhaps the best service there could be?

Either way... a lot of people are clearly obsessed with this chimera known as "money" or "profit" - poverty conscious hippie types or those who try to harness that energy in deliberate ways.

These trees are a renewable resource... do people have a problem with people going out into nature and taking crystals or gold from the ground and making money out of them?

Usually, no! the thing is, most able people, if they put their head to it, could go out and mine gold or opals... we think, "oh well, it takes so much skill to find the gold!"

But very few people actually have the chutzpah and wherewithal to actually harvest tryptamines... and it is illegal too... I say, if people can actually do it (hands up how many people you know who have tried and failed miserably, perhaps multiple times to extract tryptamines from Australian acacias?) and get away with it, let them actually turn the tide a bit...why should the money aspect really matter at all?

Because to be frank, almost nobody is going to produce any decent amount of tryptamines for free. And more than decent amounts of tryptamines are necessary if that tide is to be turned.

If money is the motivating factor in people doing this work... so be it! Money is the motivating factor in most forms of work.

And the gold is a non-renewable resource. Once it is gone, it is gone. The trees can always grow back.

As I understand it, the aboriginals believe that elements like gold and uranium make up the blood or substance of the rainbow serpent.

I recently heard of this guy who has this digging machine and goes into national parks and state forrests and has this mechanical digger that mines sapphires for him... he is effectively making enormous amounts of money doing this... should we saying, "goodonya fella! for having the skill to make some bucks out of the earth!"

or should we say, "you demon monster! digging holes in our natural environment, stealing the blood of the rainbow serpent!"

I personally just find it interesting...

For the sake of discussion, what if 'what is being brought to bear here', isn't? What if the tree bears no fruit?

Well, having kept my ear to the ground about what fruit does come from tryptamine consciousness... I have seen radical changes in lifestyles, people becoming a lot more conscious, freeing themselves from limiting belief systems, a lot of deep and often very specific healing work, revelation and contact with a deeper source of being, contact with other forms of dimensional life, I've seen aboriginal people contact the dreamtime, groups of people bonding in new and interesting ways, people communicating with dead relatives, people opening their voice and singing, becoming aware of behaviour that does not serve them or others and on and on... but I think most of all, showing people that this material reality is not the only reality... that there are other realities just as valid and real as this one... and with that perspective, I think it really gives people a permission to live their lives more deeply and appreciatively. And then you lose your fear of death and can actually focus more on living.

I think also the tryptamines can inspire a great deal of really amazing art too... and a lot of this I have seen as well.

It seems to me that Tryptamines bear a hell of a lot more fruit than sapphires or opals... or any other natural resource I am aware of.

So I feel we should embrace it as being a natural resource, and treat it seriously as a natural resource, instead of simply being "protective" and wary about it.

Julian.

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well, you sure showed me :lol:

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seems to be allot of talk about drugs here... LOL, you guys.... jeez... im gunna go n have a beer and a smoke i think =P

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this species has also taken a flogging in in n nsw. there are many acacias where what people are looking for is as plentiful in the phyllode as in the bark. unless you want to see people thinking that bark stripping is a practice which all people working with acacias are into, then don't do it, it only shows ignorance.

Edited by bulls on parade
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If I was going to resurrect a four year old thread, and provide absolutely no new information, I would definitely choose one of the biggest flame wars of the past few years. :rolleyes:

Edited by ballzac
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and it had previously finished with a post from a member who has recently passed :angry:

Love u Wandjina

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I am grateful for this thread. There are areas in NSW where this has been done to every large obtusifolia tree in a location (including national parks). So called 'Shaman' in Australia have seriously harmed a beautiful plant for their own greed.

The approach advocated earlier by Julian is irresponsible, uneducated and HAS led to the destruction of habitat.

People who respect nature please don't buy into the 'DMT' trade.

Some of the nastiest tree rapists are the ones who've brought popular attention to these things. Such a shame for everyone, really.

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