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Torsten

Both australian ethnobotany forums under surveillance

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we suspected it pretty much ever since we started the forum that at some point along the way these forums would be under surveillance from one agency or another. The other day we received confirmation that this is in fact the case for both SAB and AE and that it has been going on for months. Particular interest at this point in time appears to be ephedrine, ephedra, and anything that is connected to meth production. Also of interest is safrole and mdma production. Surprisingly dmt was the next on the list. There was also some interest in cactus extraction and even amanita mushrooms got a mention :rolleyes: .

The online activities of SAB and other herbal stores are also documented and anyone selling/trading plants and herbs should make themselves VERY familiar with the laws OF THEIR STATE and also any FEDERAL legislation. It appears that Ephedra plants are indeed illegal in some states - for example.

We do not know to what extent privacy has been compromised on these forums, but we know that MY OWN privacy does not exist anymore. ALL of my communications channels are no longer private and may be monitored. This includes all my email addresses, PMs, phone, etc.

I have deleted all my PMs because I am not sure if anyone sent me anything dodgy in the last few years, so if I am neglecting a plant trade etc in the next few weeks/months please let me know.

DO NOT email or PM me with questions about this matter as I will/can not provide any further details other than what I am posting here. Just keep in mind that whatever you thought would be unlikely in terms of cybersnoop privacy breaches is definitely very likely. And keep in mind that this applies to several, if not all australian forums.

Please do not start chinese whispers. No one knows any further details beyond what I have written here. If you want to know what's going on then come to this thread. I am not selectively letting others know anything more than this, so if you hear something that is not written here then it is not true.

Lastly and most importantly, if you have incriminated yourself on any australian forums you might want to edit and clean up your act. If you are having illegal communications then stop it or face the consequences. And please use a bit of common sense when posting.

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Was to be expected at some time or another. Curiously is there anything in place to delete all pm's? Its fine for one to delete all their own pm's but they are probably sitting in somone elses box aswell.

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There was also some interest in cactus extraction and even amanita mushrooms got a mention :rolleyes: .

a mention in what?

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a mention in what?

In my interrogation, the chatter between agents, and the documents relating to the matter.

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that could explain the spyware that i was picking up a few weeks back. i suspected then and still do that s-a was bugged by the authorities.

i tried to warn people about this.

Edited by ethnodude

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It appears that Ephedra plants are indeed illegal in some states - for example.

which states are these?

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man, that's so lame and irrelevant. anyway, what do you mean you 'suspect' that SAB is bugged? I just told everyone that it is :scratchhead:

please folks, don't let your paranoid imagination run away on you. stick to the facts - they are bad enough.

it appears Ephedra plants are illegal in Qld - at least the Qld based federal agent seemed to think so.

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what i mean is i suspected it was back then as you didn't seem to know the source of the spyware.

seems to big a coincidence not to be related. just stating observations.

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it appears Ephedra plants are illegal in Qld - at least the Qld based federal agent seemed to think so.

sure hope that isn't correct for obvious reason. hopefully it was just a fear tactic. its not like the authorities would spread misinformation about plant's now is it.

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what i mean is i suspected it was back then as you didn't seem to know the source of the spyware.

seems to big a coincidence not to be related. just stating observations.

Why would the most powerful investigations agency in the country put a known russian phishing script on our server if they can happily put something on there we can't see or do anything about, and can gain access to the server and all the data on it at any time they want? it makes absolutely no sense.

how did I know that this thread was going to end up like this :BANGHEAD2:

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I have always assumed all the relevant forums and pm's around the world were under surveillance by the various authorities... I wonder if they will find anything interesting! :scratchhead:

But now, well the bubble has been burst and I guess people will be a lot more careful and there is little chance of them finding out much more through this medium.

Julian.

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: (

it was a bit predictable T (reaction to this thread), but i hope it's not too hard-going there for you torsten ....

i better quickly erase every 900 odd posts of mine ; -)

i think you know how much most of us appreciate what you do.....so, thanks, and sorry to hear about this

Edited by coin

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folias - too right. I think a false sense of security is a very unhealthy thing for any marginalised community. It's good to get a reality check.

coin - thanks heaps. yes, it has been rough for me. Thankfully they had no interest in Daniel [and he wasn't home when it all happened], so he is being very supportive. Those who have read the thread I wrote about the ACC about 8 months ago [deleted soon after for fear of repercussions to other people] might have an idea just how intense they are. These people operate under the same laws as the anti terror act everyone complains about. Anyway, got myself a good lawyer for advice. It's just amazing this is about something as silly as Ephedra plants [which they couldn't even confiscate]. I'll post a copy of the warrant when I get time to scan it as it makes for interesting reading.

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i hear what your saying t. sorry i jumped to conclusions. your initial post is somewhat unclear obviously due to your current position.

just so i'm clear (as i'm somewhat lame) what your saying is that these powers may well have full access to all websites even those served over sea's? just seems like some sort of breach of the privacy act. unless they had a warrant to do so, all i can think of is that the anti-terror laws were used to obtain such power. again i apologize if i'm jumping to conclusions here.

btw t i would like to thank you for getting this out to the people even though you are obviously taking a big risk by doing so.

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Forgot to mention that they were also searching the nursery for salvia plants.

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could you elaborate on how they obtained the warrant without compromising yourself? what grounds was it based on? seems like an aweful lot of time, effort and tax payers money for them not to have a strong case. were you charged with anything? please ignore these questions if they are out of line.

many thanks

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your initial post is somewhat unclear obviously due to your current position.

I am on pretty solid ground [it's just tedious and stressfull], but just didn't want to complicate life for anyone else.

just so i'm clear (as i'm somewhat lame) what your saying is that these powers may well have full access to all websites even those served over sea's?

They already had my ISP and host details and the warrant gave them access to everything. I still don't understand what my bedside table has to do with ephedra plants, but hey- they make the rules.

just seems like some sort of breach of the privacy act.

what privacy? There is none in australia. As soon as you are a drug suspect you have no rights and no privacy.

all i can think of is that the anti-terror laws were used to obtain such power.

The NCA act is from 1982 and they already had the special powers in those days. In 2000 they were disbanded due to abuse of power. In 2002 it was reformed into the ACC act - same laws, same people. The old head of the NCA is a public advocate for torture, so you can imagine what sort of mindset these people have.

btw t i would like to thank you for getting this out to the people even though you are obviously taking a big risk by doing so.

I don't think I am taking any risk in getting this out. I had a good think about it. I am surprised they actually allowed me to talk about this, so I want to make sure the news gets out there before they change their mind. Some people who were visited by the ACC a few months ago had gag orders slapped on them so they can't talk about anything for 5 years [not even about the fact that they have gag orders]. So, if my replies all come back as 'no comment' you know what happened :o

oh and it might be a good idea to copy and paste some of the stuff I wrote because who knows how long it will be here and it might be good to have it up elsewhere.

over and out till thursday night.

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could you elaborate on how they obtained the warrant without compromising yourself? what grounds was it based on? seems like an aweful lot of time, effort and

The warrant will explain more, but basically they came in and said they are on a fishing expedition. They even told me I am not doing anything illegal by having ephedra seeds and plants, but that they still have the right to search everything. To be honest it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I hope my lawyer can fill in a few blanks for me.

When dealing with ACC cases you have to forget everything you know from the movies and from school. That's not what they do and that's not how they operate. They are an intelligence agency. So, they basically came fishing to see if I could be a source of commercial quantities of ephedra herb material or if I could supply the number of plants required for a commercial ephedra plantation which could then be diverted into meth production.

Given that all of my ephedra plants wouldn't even produce 2 packs of sudafed worth of alkaloids it gives the whole process an air of desperation, misguided priorities, or total lack of practical understanding.

gotta get some sleep. big day today.

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thanks so much for the info t.

you have to wonder if this is more of an attack on meth production or human rights. i mean what better way to install fear into people then to hit one of the most well known ethno sites. even if they don't lay any charges the control they gain by hitting the web site is paramount. the thing is the more these powers repress peoples rights the more they fuel anarchy. i feel the last thing anyone wants is to be forced to have to fight for their rights. if people were just left alone to practice that which harms no one then the country security would be much better off. if this doesn't stop something has to give. if only the powers got this but i doubt they ever will.

many kudo's t for putting your arse out there.

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...it gives the whole process an air of desperation, misguided priorities, or total lack of practical understanding.

Sounds typical of the police here. (I'm unfamiliar with O/S)

"if people were just left alone to practice that which harms no one then the country security would be much better off

That's not the government mindset. Government is about mind control and if you practice mind expansion and critical thinking you are a threat and you harm their sense of security, that's already too much. Although I doubt this is a scare tactic, it really seems more like they're desperate for a meth lab bust to make the headlines. It's election time and Howard has to be tough on drugs remember.

If anybody is scared by this remember the internet has "no legitimate expectation of privacy" so anything you ever say anywhere is potentially monitored so always be careful about what you say, it's that simple and really everyone should've been following these rules anyway.

be vewwy vewwy quiet...

I hope this place doesn't die on account of peoples paranoia.

Cheers for the headsup Torsten, even though I never do anything illegal so I'm not worried. Hope all works out for you and you don't get gagged, even though us hippies are a sub-class of human and people don't sympathise with us, ANY breach of anybody's human and legal rights by 'the man' should be made public!

Edited by El Duderino

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Its fucking ridiculous that theyd invest so much to investigate this site for meth activity, this is one of the most meth-free forums I've ever found! And I did look. Thats part of the reason I absolutely love it here because I despise meth.

Sheesh

Musta sucked being interrogated by authorities... I been there... you just know they dont have a Gandhi undershirt on, no pink hearts on their undies.

Torsten, do you have pink heart undies? (trying to get a premature 'no comment' :P )

I always assumed LE watches the forums, I mean its the net man! I been tellin people that since 2002, but I'm not entirely clear on how far aussie cops can go, always assumed the read the forums and always knew a warrant would get them total access to the server (all posts, PMs, blogs, etc.) but with their more recent expansions of power can they burrow their way into users PCs to snoop or plant keyloggers or whatnot? Thatd be a bitch.

Remember coppers, this isnt exclusively aussie, I'm a ferkin' yank so dont ferkin' yank Torsten around because I do stuff thats legal here but not over there :P

I sense flaming on the horizon. Preemptive peace puppy:

puppy_400_060205a.jpg

Edited by Auxin

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sorry to hear you had to go through that Torsten.

Seeing as how you always seem to be ontop ov the legalities & serious about your business, i guess all they're gonna bring back from this fishing trip is tales about the one that got away.

Stay strong.

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Last time I came into the country customs really went through EVERYTHING in my luggage 2-3 times...when I sat on my trolley, exasperated and tired of being interrogated (for 2 hours!), after a huge flight, they told me to get up!

They said it was a random search... and they read through private papers, he showed them to another officer and said to her, "I can't make head or tale of this"

As if he should!

and they opened up my computer and tried to get it to work!

I said, "Do I have a right to privacy here"

and they said, "no, no you don't."

I was treated rudely and barked at...while the cameramen from tv show I have never been able to watch... "border security" looked at me like disinterested vultures!

And then they said they found heroin on my toothbrush!

The woman said show me your arms... and I showed them to her and of course there were no track marks... but she kept telling me she knew I was a "junkie"!

And were about to x-ray me, when I started to get angry and told them don't even bother, because you won't find anything! And so they didn't.

I said think your machine is broken, sure, I did heroin 5 years ago or something like that....(I don't mind incriminating myself here for that!)

It was great way to be welcomed back into the country I can tell you...

Australian police can be exceptionally fair and reasonable (certainly compared to other police forces in the world), but how they treat you if they "think" you are doing the "wrong" thing, is that they treat you like you have no rights and that you are no better than a dog... I think that really wrong and offensive... they treat you like you are guilty first and foremost, and then even if you are "guilty", surely you should be treated with some respect and dignity?

It find it really sad and shows what a bunch of low self esteemed loafers Australians are in many ways....people in England and America and most of europe, for example wouldn't put up with the same shit we do: at all!

I feel it is a remnant of the convict past... part of that is being beaten down and accepting being beaten down, because there is nothing to do and there is a deep resignation in the Australian psyche, and that pisses me off... and I think that's in the genetic memory. The powers that be will exploit this resignation and people's rights will continue be violated... if we don't stand up. We have been seeing this pretty hardcore these last few years... and it will continue if people aren't willing to get off their selfish trip and stand up for a higher cause.

For me, to a certain degree, incriminating myself has been one way of standing up in some way... many years ago on ayahuasca.com forums I was pretty much the only person to begin saying, "actually, I am the one doing this and it wasn't a dream and it really happened" and it kind of caught on as I recall. Before that, people are just saying it was a dream or a friend or a friend or someone passed this bit of paper to them or some such rubbish. Part of that was putting my name to my posts to say that I was a real person. (didn't say I was the first to do that though!)

The authorities know this sort of thing is going on... whether or not it is interesting to them is another matter... really, this community is totally small fry, of course "illegal" stuff is going on, (just like there is in a lot of lawyers or judges homes too!) but meth labs? anything really damaging to the community? that gives sway to pernicious drug abuse? ... I have not smelt a whiff of anything like that in the Australian EB scene for many, many years!

Julian.

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people in England and America and most of europe, for example wouldn't put up with the same shit we do: at all!
Realllllllly? :rolleyes:

Why is it england has one public surveillance camera for every six people? Why are they rolling back civil liberties so cops have more power to beat suspects? For the US I have a nice example of how bad it was even Years before september 11 2001

*Rant Warning*

Back when I was in school I was quite dissatisfied with war crimes being committed by my government. When a federal building was blown up at first no one knew who did it, some blamed ossama, some blamed iran, etc and as with the sept 11th attacks folks from the short bus brigade (does that translate? ..read as mental midgets) started on that bull shit stuff 'how could they attack us? we're pure and good! we bring peace to the world! they must hate us because we are free it must be an act of all out war!'' While this shit was going on and while the feds were scurrying about trying to act busy I stood up and publicly told every one that would listen that my government was one which was engaged in war crimes in that we supplied chemical and biological weapons to dictators known for 'ethnic cleansing' we bombed civilian water treatment plants causing outbreaks of cholera and dysentery which murdered children, we were supporting drug kingpins in their overthrowing of their governments and massacring of all opposition and that the feds were fucking scoundrels for putting a nursery in a federal building while we were engaged in war crimes and crimes against peace which I believed amounted to the use of infants as human shields. To counter the 'it must be an act of war' I kindly pointed out that bombs and weapons were easy to make from ubiquitous items everyone has access too (big mistake saying this :wink: ) and that if this were in retaliation for our international actions our "enemies" must be kinder and more compassionate than we because they Didnt commence in terrorist bombings of water systems and schools like we did in east europe, the middle east, and central&south america. OK, that pissed the feds off a bit too much when they already had their pants pulled down around their ankles so they decided to have some fun with me. Two feds picked me up and locked me in a car, they took me to my house and made me watch as the police, the SWAT team, the FBI, the bomb squad, a HazMat team, and scary anonymous guys in black $500 suits all raided my house and once they had gone through everything (keeping many items of jewelry, a gold bar, and other assorted items that their wives no doubt enjoy to this day) they dumped all my possessions into giant piles. While this was happening they illegally interrogated me without allowing me access to my parents or a lawyer and tried to twist my words into confessions of ridiculous terrorism related crimes. They then drove me to the police precinct where they locked me in a bare room and put a note on the door saying no one could enter or provide me with a lawyer, access to my parents, or water. They kept me in that room for 8 hours straight with no access to food, water, a toilet, a telephone, or a lawyer. Once it was all over with they kindly informed me that they can do whatever the fuck they want and if I reported the stolen property or sued for police misconduct, illegal detention, refusal of a lawyer, or illegal interrogation they would make sure that someone would plant hard drugs on me and arrest me and no one would question it because of my age and appearance. I then had people (ordinary americans not connected with the revenge-raid) tell me that dramatic reductions in our civil liberties was worth it to 'protect our society from its enemies' and that "sacrifices must be made".

Incase your not yet outraged, when all of the above happened I was Fifteen Years Old

Welcome to the USA! The land of the free where

people in ...America ... wouldn't put up with the same shit we do: at all!

It was all done to "make me free". If you believe that I have a bridge to sell you.

In between the gag orders I've heard many stories far worse than mine, especially in the last 6 years.

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