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trucha

Huancabamba

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This is intended as a space to discuss the famous Huancabamba, its plants and its people as well as a nice place to post maps, links, photos or discussions of the other places with the same name that were referred to by Michael in another post.

More than one place with the same name should not have to create confusion. For instance if I am in Dublin California I have no trouble telling I am not in Ireland but if just saying I went to Dublin this can at least potentially cause confusion depending on what other information we have available.

Including department names for Peruvian locations is always a very helpful approach for avoiding that sort of confusion.

It would be great to learn those three Huancabamba locations referred to by Michael so that we can find them useful in this regards.

The remote and hard to get to location favored by shamans was claimed by Friedberg to have been chosen to avoid persecution due to its remoteness and difficulty in easily getting to. (One single sketchy mountain road in and out)

This would have been even more of an issue in the days of the Inquisitions when "questioning" by church representatives commonly involved beatings and torture for periods lasting for sometimes several years but the anthropologist Claudine Friedberg reported users hid their best plants out of sight even in the late 1950s to avoid persecution.

The psychiatric researcher Dr. Carlos Guittierez-Noriega made a similar comment around the same time frame and denounced the traditional San Pedro using shamans in the area as a bunch of charlatans and sexual perverts who were continually experimenting with psychoactive plants.

I would also love Michael's and other people's opinion on how "peruvianus Huancabamba" fits into peruvianus or pachanoi or if it does.

I am starting to not know what to think except that the offspring from Mesa Garden seeds do not all resemble each other. Mine from Oasis, grown from MG seed, looks like a rather typical and common Peruvian pachanoi but I have seen others that do not.

Of course even a single seed pod can hold the seeds for offspring from multiple pollen contributors as each grain of pollen makes one seed.

Edited by trucha

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Here are 3 different clones of the mesa garden Huanacamba seed.

Tomorrow I will post pictures of the ones I grew from their seed.

They look absolutly nothing like these ones.They look quite similar to the T.Pachanoi seedlings I grew out from the same vendor.

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I finally got around to doing a google search.

I welcome being corrected if I am wrong but can only find one town called Huancabamba.

Here are a couple of images of the so-called peruvianus Huancabamba from Mesa Garden. Seeds collected at Huancamba by a Dutch citizen who is married to a Peruvian. I probably should not include his name without permission so won't.

It is part of that pachanoi-peruvianus complex but seems interestingly variable causing me to wonder if the seeds all had the same pollen parent. I would not think it is good to call it a peruvianus though.

This was grown from their seed by Oasis in Sonoma.

This is a tip image of a column around 4 feet tall. The yellow is an artifact of a flash used on a cloudy day.

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This is new growth on the same plant after transplanting to a different location.

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The next image is of another plant grown from the same seed lot by Sacred Succulents. (The tip behind the flower is another cactus and not the same Huacabamba plant)

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More to come.

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Edited by trucha

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kt, you're using the wrong info source. In Peru there are:

1) Department: Piura

Province: Huancabamba

District: Huancabamba

Town/city: Huancabamba

http://www.fallingrain.com/world/PE/20/Huancabamba.html

2) Department: Pasco

Province: Oxapampa

District: Huancabamba

Town/city: Huancabamba

http://www.fallingrain.com/world/PE/19/Huancabamba2.html

3) Department: Apurimac

Province: Andahuaylas

District: Andahuaylas

Town/City: Huancabamba

Airport: Huancabamba Airport

http://www.fallingrain.com/world/PE/3/Huancabamba.html

4) Department: La Libertad

Province: ?

District: ?

Town/city: Huancabamba

http://www.fallingrain.com/world/PE/13/Huancabamba.html

5) Department: Huanuco

Province: ?

District: ?

Town/city: Huancabamba

http://www.fallingrain.com/world/PE/10/Huancabamba.html

6) Department: Ayacucho

Province: ?

District: ?

Town/city: Huancabamba

http://www.fallingrain.com/world/PE/5/Huancabamba.html

I knew of the first three, but found the other three by going through all the departments at fallingrain, which is a great site by the way. I'll see what I can do when I get the time to find the provinces and districts.

I never think I regarded these other Huancabamba's as causing any great deal of confusion for most, but only mentioned them to prevent any confusion that might occur.

I have always considered any mention of Huancabamba as being in regard to the province of Huancabamba within the department of Piura, this being the location of the lagoons known as "Las Huaringa," and where the best known of the San Pedro rituals are performed. You appear to be regarding Huancabamba simply as the capital city of the province of Huancabamba, but I look at it much broader as I doubt the mention of the San Pedro cult of Huancabamba is limited to the city alone or that the plants used in the cult are similarly restricted to the city.

If you are interested in maps I might have a few that I can post. I have a nice one of the region around the city of Huancabamba in northern Peru which even shows Shimbe Lagoon and the river that passes through Huancabamba.

~Michael~

Edited by M S Smith

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Here's the cool map of the Huancabamba region. Next up will be the three growth forms I kept of the many T. peruvianus "Small Spine" from Huancabamba I grew from Mesa Garden seed. I need to get the pictures up at Flickr first. Actually there are already pictures there, but I have some new ones which as the plants age they become more distinct from each other. I'm of course very curious if the paternal side was something different than the maternal.

~Michael~

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Edited by M S Smith

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Thanks for that! Normally google gives me better info. Perhaps I should have followed it farther than the first 6 pages of its links.

I actually went to fallingrain but did not get the same wealth of towns with that name.

Both the fruit and flowers look far closer to a typical cultivated pachanoi than to a peruvianus. I'll have more photos posted soon.

I think it probably got named due to high potency as it was not named by a botanist but a layperson.

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Why I would suggest the Huancabamba is an intermediate rather than a peruvianus or pachanoi.

Note how it more resembles the Strybig intermediate than pachanoi or peruvianus and seems to have internal features of both pachanoi and peruvianus.

The flower is actually more similar internally to flower pictures of wild pachanoi Michael has circulated on CD than to peruvianus flowers.

The exterior however is not like either one and looks more similar to the exterior of a Juulsxpachanoi (photos to come).

It will be nice to see more flower photos of the divergent forms of HUancabamba.

hopefully mine will flower next year.

Flowering

Upper left Huancabamba

Upper right Strybig pachanoid thing

Lower left pachanoi predominate cultivat

Lower right peruvianus Eltzner

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Ovary/throat

Upper left Huancabamba

Upper right Strybig pachanoid thing

Lower row peruvianus Eltzner

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Since one pollen granule = one seed a single seed pod can easily have more than one pollen parent.

Natural variation occurs as well but this readily crosspollination can be a huge source of problems in cultivated seeds or wild ones.

Its been claimed that hawkmoths and bats are pollinators (I don't doubt it) but bees don't since they miss the stigma and go right for the anthers. I've seen that too but its not what always happens.

I've recently watched bees covered with pollen literally wrestling with the stigma lobes and climbing the style in such a way that pollen transfer to the lobes would have had to occurred. Some of the bees wre completely yellow with pollen dust (not just legs but their entire body) and seemed to totally love playing in the pollen, rolling over on their backs and looking like they were having lots of fun.

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Edited by trucha

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I'm sorry, that comment wasn't intelligent for this thread! :P

You're right, that's a mighty purdy Echicereus (ABCD211 x EFG111111001101) var. cristouscrispy :wink:

They come from one of the upper, lower left-hand quadrants of the Andes, just around the corner from the old guy with one eye and hairy nostrils.

Perhaps I should start another thread.

Sorry for the hijack :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Its been claimed that hawkmoths and bats are pollinators (I don't doubt it) but bees don't since they miss the stigma and go right for the anthers. I've seen that too but its not what always happens.

I'm inclined to think that bats wouldn't pollinate these types of Trichocereus because of the flower shape which are more tubular and less meaty with longer petals when compared to the well known bat pollinated flowers like Carnegia & Weberbauerocereus. Maybe they'd go for something like pasacana and terscheckii though, actually I think they're known to go for pasacana.

PS - The bees wouldn't let me get near the day most of my flowers opened earlier this year, they were having a ball. I think they were delirious with joy. :lol:

I had to fight them for the pollen and they didn't leave me much I can assure you.

Edited by strangebrew

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PS - The bees wouldn't let me get near the day most of my flowers opened earlier this year, they were having a ball. I think they were delirious with joy. :D I had to fight them for the pollen and they didn't leave me much I can assure you.

same SB, 5 flowers grouped together of 2 different trichos and the mass of bees did all the work. One flower was pollinated and produced fruit, the seed of which are growing right now :).

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I do have to wonder if the plethora of towns named Huancabamba was deliberately done to obscure the shamans centered around Huancabamba? It would be interesting to know when they all started.

It would also be interesting to know when San Pedro users started being left alone and how far that being left alone really goes. When Tello moved the government to 'save' the Chavin de Huantar people were still living there on top of the central aboveground portions of the site. I have to wonder if they were practicing shamans continuing using it as a giant mesa of sorts. Whatever the case they were ejected rudely to preserve the site. I've asked a lot of people this question, including in Peru, and as far as I can tell this question was never asked or considered.

Clearly in parts of the world like the US such persecution has not stopped.

The bees do seem delirious with joy. They roll around and play with the air, not just tthe anthers. Its amazing to watch.

Bats do attempt to address these - not here but in Oakland where there are more bat species. They tend to damage the stigma when they visit badly leaving it askew.

I agree they aren't a good pollinator choice from the point of view of causing damage to the plant. There is not any nicely defined nectary but certainly there is nectar on the lower portions inside in a nice position to be lapped up. The bees seem focused on the pollen.

Has anyone out there noticed how the little points and the creases on the flowers of these arise from the shape of the stigma lobes before they spread? Or how the spreading petals are what pull the stigma lobes out? Or how the petal tips are infolded to completely separate the anthers from the stigma lobes when the flowerbud is closed? The Eltzner clone sometimes does not release the petal tips cleanly and hangs up in process which is when I got a good look at the process. Normally by the time the flower is starting to open they are free and this is not as visible.

I'll get some cool images posted showing this soon

Edited by trucha

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I would be interested in knowing what the origin and meaning of "Huancabamba" is. I suspect it may simply mean "town of...." or something similar (bamba possibly meaning "town"). What might "Huanca" mean? Similar prefixes and suffixes seem common throughout Peru.

~Michael~

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Good question. A lot of Peruviaan names are Quechuan derived or even older. I'm sending an email today to a friend in Lima to see if we can find out.

It might be locateable info if looking up where the Huancabamba Region or Huancabamba Depression got their names but living on dialup internet searches are slow and grueling. Out here I'm thrilled if I can get on at 28.8.

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Here's three forms of the "small spine" T. peruvianus from Huancabamba, Peru, I grew from seed.

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~Michael~

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Didn't Davis refer to Friedberg about la huachuma mischa, la huachuma rastrara and la currandera? Didn't Friedberg do research in the area in question?

Didn't the Shultes material pertain to this? Ergo plants growing near sacred water, sold in the town by the name in question but grown nowhere near the market, just in the region and more than one type in the region at that.

Friedberg, Davis and Shultes seem to relate and form a slightly more clear picture than any one of them alone so far as this topic seems to be concerned.

The picture in the first ed of Plants of the Gods looks very close to the SS huancabamba material.

The peruvianoid phenotype huancabamba seedlings from MG look so very much like their current pachanoi and some of their past peruvianus not sold as being from huancabamba.

I do not suspect each seedling is an intermediate, however I do not believe that people growing multiple clones for some time would choose to rely upon sexual forms of propagation.

Edited by Archaea

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I have several f1 plants of pachanoid forms crossed with peruvianoid forms such as SS01 X Juuls, and Juuls X peruvianus (OTJ) in which case the peruvianoid is a thick blue form. None of these first generation intermediates look like the pachanoid phenotype of the huancabamba material rather the known "hybrids" show more variation and different expression.

Mikes photographs above show plants that fit into my own oid descriptions for a pachanoid, despite the variation. I'd expect that a population of any phenotype from seed would show some degree of variation and some have more than others. There could be several alleles in a single phenotypic population, even one composed of a number of asexually propagated cuttings. The variation is only a sign of heterozygous alleles, populations of heirloom forms are known to display variation despite a degree of uniformity as well. Material descending from cultivated populations of varieties is rarely homozygous despite many conserved alleles.

The peruvianoid huancabamba seedlings do appear as intermediates or show hybrid type ratios in their variation, rather they are like variations on a theme much like the pachanoid forms appear to be; not homozygous but giving rise to limited range of expression.

I might not have mentioned this but biology is dynamic, there is no way a dynamic population and biological process is going to remain apt in regard to a fixed or static nomenclature based system of taxonomy, no matter how apt that system is when erected. Ergo there is an ironic futility to the idea that taxonomy, or any other science can compose and facilitate a coherent articulation having explanatory value for the dynamic nature of biology or the universe itself. The flaws are of course related to the illusion of mind, without going into that let me say there is an analogy that serves me now. Taxonomy is but a consensus opinion, it may have rules about how and why it is composed, but it is as an opinion, even when based upon proven observation. Plants are always changing, we have a very strange view of time and don't tend to consider how incremental it is, thus we create opinions about changing things and when our opinions fail to keep up with the change we tend to reject the opinions and create new ones, though some remain stubborn knowing that at one time the old opinion was as apt as the one that replaces it, what they may not consider however is that it is for all its aptitude, equally inept due to the problems of reconciling a dynamic process with a fixed description based upon an incremental observation in a time line that is for all intents and purposes infinitely larger than the increment involved.

I guess what I mean to say is that cactus taxonomy and related topics are among my favorite wastes of time.

A question...

Is there a palamino/calderon connection to friedberg, davis or others doing research in the huancabamba area? Isn't the time line correct and are not the sacred lagoons calderon was photographed as conducting a session at found in the region? I understand that many Andean achuma knowers are still secretive, however someone had to be among the first to include outsiders and I bet there was/is some controversy about this.

I wonder when the term huachuma was first published in modern text?

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I can answer your question but what do you mean by modern appearance of the word huachuma/achuma/wachuma (all cognates)?

If modern literature not the accounts of the invaders then it was friedberg.

Even in Friedberg's time there was intensive persecution of users hence their fleeing and establishing their practices in remote hard to reach places like Huancabamba with only one sketchy road in. A friend visited there this year and it sounds like it is still an adventure to reach.

The concentration of these pedro specialists in this area is why so many researchers have gone there. LOTS of shamans were and are there not just the one or two who had their names see print.

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Here's the "sketchy road" you mention. It must be nice to make it around the corner alive and see these two views.

I so want to find photos of the plants of Huancabamba in the ground, but alas, I've had no luck. Is there any reason to think they will be different than the T. pachanoi in the markets of Chiclayo?

~Michael~

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same plant shown farther above flowering but with fruit.

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Fat thing in background is that short spined Hutchison collection at UC.

The names Friedberg mentioned were just stated as names and never described further. She did make one really interesting comment in her first paper about the San Pedro using shamans in the area. She said the tall plants that could be seen in and around town were not what was used and prized but rather it was short plants they kept hidden in their gardens. Repeatedly cut on versus allowed to grow tall or something else entirely can't be discerned. She did mention there was still fear of persecution (1959) and that seemed to be why they were kept hidden but I don't read French (I've only had two semesters) and relied on a friend to help me understand this.

The chroniclers of the invasion used other names mostly. Giganton and agua-colla for instance.

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Edited by trucha

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I can answer your question but what do you mean by modern appearance of the word huachuma/achuma/wachuma (all cognates)?

If modern literature not the accounts of the invaders then it was friedberg.

I mean in modern lit that pertains to the study of the use of the cacti.

Even in Friedberg's time there was intensive persecution of users hence their fleeing and establishing their practices in remote hard to reach places like Huancabamba with only one sketchy road in. A friend visited there this year and it sounds like it is still an adventure to reach.

The concentration of these pedro specialists in this area is why so many researchers have gone there. LOTS of shamans were and are there not just the one or two who had their names see print.

I understand people are still reluctant to share information with outsiders, I had been under the impression (mistaken?) that in friedbergs time such a reluctance was common among local shamans and thus have only seen one name in various publications, of shamans that were willing, at the time, to share information. I understand there is a large shamanic population, and even tradition in the area, however it seems that such tradition has been forced into the guise of what is often termed protective coloration, among other measures adopted to allow the endurance of traditional knowledge in an oppressive situation. Davis would be wonderful to talk to, it seems there are very few people however, willing to talk about this topic, my attempts to have conversations with people well versed in this topic have been met with overt silence in all but a few cases, and this is without any potential for persecution or incrimination. This topic is still shrouded in paranoia, though perhaps, given the history involved, this is as it should be.

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Actually there has been a fair bit written (much of which centers around this region).

Cruz Sanchez wrote several pieces, Guittierez Noreiga wrote two pertinent ones. Both are interesting in their material but dismissive of the practices they observed as fraudulent due to the drug use.

Backeberg similarly dismissed it as deceptive fraud but his photo of a pachanoi tip is very consistent with the preferred sacramental sort indicated by others.

Then there are Douglas Sharon's assorted works on or with Eduardo Calderon. Some of this in in English but the most detailed works are only in Spanish.

Mario Polia's Sangre del Condor is another one on the topic. If I recall right (I lack access to my library at the moment) this was in Italian.

As is Glass-Coffin's work The Gift of Life which focuses mostly on women san pedro shaman's. Its in English.

There are other works in German such as Andritsky's work on healers in the Peruvian highlands and several others I have not been able to acquire yet.

Most of the books show images of what is most commonly used (the short spined)

I'd suggest dismissing Davis as a source for more information. I'm not sure I want to go into that in print but my conversations with him have not been productive of any level of factual solidity. I would be happy to discuss the details of this offlist.

Despite the problems reported by Sharon and Bussman recently, friends looking into this have never had any trouble finding conversant informants or access to the brew.

Friedberg also had a lot of success considering her fairly limited period of fieldwork. Her accounts can be found mainly in French but at least one paper is in Spanish.

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Huancabamba means :

"Valley of the great sacred rocks" (valley or plain) / (great or big)

Edited by slice

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