The truth about Bowling for Columbine

[chilli]

Hi Shiva... if that is your real name

*edit* I've found for some reason that in writing I sometimes seem to come across as quite evil and malicious... please just imagine me saying all this in the sweetest gentlest voice, with a caring smile on my face, and the occasional bemused look or concerned frown.

What do you mean 'big brother' and 'talking without a microphone'?

I like the pic BTW, David and Goliath ;)

"I already told how this made me feel bad and led me to the decision not to bring all I have to this fight, I'm only throwing punches with enough inertia to let you think your winning/have won in the hope you can reclaim whatever it is you need to reclaim so you can go back to sleeping again."

This sounds like typical paranoia, can you in any way recognize that much of this fighting/winning/losing thing is being projected onto me by you? I thought we were having a mutual exchange, I didn't know it was a competition or some kind of smash-up, if that's what you want then let's take it out on Street Fighter 2.

The sleeping pill I would've prescribed to you at the time would've been a thorough restoration of your sense of dignity/reputation, a good way to get some of this back on forums is a carpet bombing of as many threads as you can but I can see you've already figured that out, look's like it's worked cause you've restored your pride and come out with balls to post in the "what are we" thread, told ya I only mean good.

Are you saying the reason I posted in the "who are we" thread was to restore my dignity or reputation, which I have somehow lost in this thread? That's kind of egomaniacal, and it's a bit worrying if you really do think that. I've been posting on SAB a lot more lately because I recently got the internet on at home, that's the reason I'm writing in this thread... sorry, but I don't think this doctor/patient thing is really going to work.

I came out swinging and you said I was overstating my case so I backed off.

You kept swinging and your pride got hurt, keep hurting your pride.

I'm disturbed that you see it this way... is this one of those 'artistic license' situations? I said you were overstating your case in the context of conceding that I partly agreed with you, not because I was taunting you:

"Basically, I think I understand and agree with your point to a degree, but I think you're overstating your case.

Peace anyway, no violence or ill intent from these quarters, just lots of the questioning you seem to value."

The amount of punches I ever throw are less than or equal to the amount of punches I need to throw.

I'm keen if you think your up to it? How serious/honest are we allowed to get?

Good to see your using humour to deal with me now.

Again with the punching? I'd be happy to discuss pretty much any topic with you, one of my biggest problems is that I don't really have many social boundaries, so I'll start talking about very personal things with people I've just met, even when I'm sober. The trouble is I think its a waste of time if you see everything as some kind of fight... if you can lower the testosterone levels a bit, I'd be happy to, like I said though, in another thread... we can even email/pm if you want.

Do you use words from the dictionary?

I try to avoid unqualified neologisms, but I doubt that's what you're asking... I'm just naturally wordy, don't worry you're not the first person to get bugged by it.

Do ya tell people where you get your words from?

I'm not sure I could even if they asked... although, as a child I did have a penchant for the dictionary, and literature, and cereal boxes... anything written.

Sorry, I didn't realise the spelling/grammar police did patrols on the SAB forums. Will ya let me off this time? I really need my spelling license, without it I'm nothing! [breaks into tears].

LOL, Ill try not to be too pedantic, but when its unclear what you're saying I might have to ask for clarification.

...whatever it is your scared/tormented by gets it's power/dominance over you from the way you perceive it/think about it/your attitude toward it.

If your unwilling to rethink whatever it is your scared of/tormented by you'll always be scared of it/have a bad attitude towards it.

I've certainly found this to be true... just so you know, I have been overcoming anxiety quite effectively without medication for a couple of years, I'm not unwilling to face or question or analyze my fears, I do it all the time... I still have bad patches, but each time the fear becomes less convincing. Really though, this isn't the forum to discuss it, so please save your advice for another time.

Look at what's happened now your not scared of being shot down for expressing yourself.

I really don't get this one... are you also taking the credit for some imaginary new found confidence on my part? If not, what do you mean?

To stick with your macho analogies, I've already suggested we 'take it outside' a couple of times so I won't respond again in this thread... unless of course I feel I need to salvage my woebegone dignity after your next post

So please, a new thread or a PM eh?

Cheers.

Edited June 14, 2007 by IllegalBrain

[apothecary]

Yes, please.

[chilli]

Sorry apoth, got a bit carried away

Anyway, yeah Michael Moore is such a fat bastard...

[No_One]

This sounds like typical paranoia, can you in any way recognize that much of this fighting/winning/losing thing is being projected onto me by you?

Yeah I'd agree that it would seem like that if your not getting what's going on.

There's kids and there's toys, kids do the playing and the toys get played with, which one are you? Which one would you rather be?

its a waste of time if you see everything as some kind of fight...

The fighting analogies are intended to be recieved the same way Chuck Palahniuk intended them to be received i.e. in the emotional/spiritual/philosophical sense.

Are you saying the reason I posted in the "who are we" thread was to restore my dignity or reputation, which I have somehow lost in this thread? That's kind of egomaniacal, and it's a bit worrying if you really do think that.

No not at all, the post in the what are we thread was good/meant something i.e. contributed another brick in the wall of what will become the SAB members theory of what we are.

What I'm refering to is the trail of uncharacteristic little pissy posts you left leading up to that one, don't get me wrong little pissy posts have there place but generic ass-kissing posts IMO are a waste of binary code.

Why do my thoughts worry you? They're my thoughts, they don't worry me......

I'm disturbed that you see it this way

Don't be disturbed, take it or leave it.

I'm just naturally wordy, don't worry you're not the first person to get bugged by it.

The point I was making was you were getting up me for putting Einsteins words in my mouth, Einstein doesn't own words, if I agree with him and couldn't be fucked thinking of how I would say it better than I'm going to use his words.

I don't think your wordy at all and your words don't bug me, what bugs me is that by your reasoning I'm not allowed to use words Einstein used without referencing him but you're allowed to take words from the dictionary, cereal boxes, etc. and use them without referencing them. Words are words, words create sentiment.

LOL, Ill try not to be too pedantic, but when its unclear what you're saying I might have to ask for clarification.

Too easy.

To stick with your macho analogies, I've already suggested we 'take it outside' a couple of times so I won't respond again in this thread... unless of course I feel I need to salvage my woebegone dignity after your next post smile.gif

So please, a new thread or a PM eh?

Shiva puts places his schooner down on the bar as he takes one last toke of a winny red, a rye-smile dilates across his face. Breathing out the smoke he gurgles "Let's go ya barsted" before bursting into laughter.

Peace

[chilli]

Illegal loses it laughing at the synchronicity as "macho, macho man" starts playing on the jukebox, then throws his beer in Shiva's face and runs for it.

[ThunderIdeal]

that sumo is american. he's can't compete in the official sumo things but competes in the open sumo league i guess. he is one heavy dude.

[komodo]

if neither side is telling the "truth"... what exactly is wrong with the opposite of left?

umm, how about because their philosophical platform is based on the rape of mother nature and debt-slave workers for excessive material luxuries for themselves?

most people live on lies anyway, because they dont have the guts to face the truth, so given its all lies anyway, personally i'd rather mass folk were fed on lies with healthy social and environmental outcomes. michael moore has probably done more good than all of his detractors combined, who gives a fuck if his methodology isnt pure as the driven snow.

[chilli]

"most people live on lies anyway, because they dont have the guts to face the truth, so given its all lies anyway, personally i'd rather mass folk were fed on lies with healthy social and environmental outcomes. michael moore has probably done more good than all of his detractors combined, who gives a fuck if his methodology isnt pure as the driven snow."

I don't understand the reasoning that because "most people live on lies" it doesn't matter if they are fed a few more, as long as they are lies that seem to support "healthy social and environmental outcomes"... The main trouble I see with this is that when the Great Unwashed are exposed to say a movie from Moore and think "shit, something he said makes sense" then they look into it and find out it was 50% bullshit, it gives them a comfortable excuse to go back to their prior beliefs.

Furthermore, IME, the vast majority of people convinced by Moore's films are people already sympathetic to his political views, this kind of self congratulatory outcome is not what I consider healthy.

If its supposed to be a film that makes the mass populace aware about the way deceit and propaganda is used as a political tool, it seems at the very least counterproductive to employ the same methods. It's a very cliched adage, but the most dangerous lies are those that are mixed with truth... to deplore this behavior in those we don't agree with and rationalize it in those we do seems to me to be hypocrisy.

Edited June 17, 2007 by IllegalBrain

[apothecary]

if neither side is telling the "truth"... what exactly is wrong with the opposite of left?

umm, how about because their philosophical platform is based on the rape of mother nature and debt-slave workers for excessive material luxuries for themselves?

most people live on lies anyway, because they dont have the guts to face the truth, so given its all lies anyway, personally i'd rather mass folk were fed on lies with healthy social and environmental outcomes. michael moore has probably done more good than all of his detractors combined, who gives a fuck if his methodology isnt pure as the driven snow.

Err, exactly what good has he done? Like IllegalBrain said, he preaches to the choir, nobody else is hearing him.

[No_One]

Err, exactly what good has he done? Like IllegalBrain said, he preaches to the choir, nobody else is hearing him.

Think about the media-scape now compared to 10 or 20 years ago, I know you don't like me talking about kids but they are the future, Michael Moore is putting different information out there into the media-scape for the kids to ponder/digest and hopefully reach the right conclusion for themselves. If it's all one way traffic i.e. all the governments oppinion, the kids brain-diet is bound to become unbalanced.

What if he inspires someone to ask questions rather than take your local MP's word as gospel then that person does something that exposes the corruption in their local council? That'd make what Mike Moore does right IMO. It's totally possible.

when the Great Unwashed are exposed to say a movie from Moore and think "shit, something he said makes sense" then they look into it and find out it was 50% bullshit, it gives them a comfortable excuse to go back to their prior beliefs.

Their prior beliefs won't be as strong as they once were, if they truely believed whatever their prior beliefs were they wouldn't need to question them, the fact that they questioned them should smack them in the face and make them realise that maybe they should go off and check the validity of what they believe.

It's a very cliched adage, but the most dangerous lies are those that are mixed with truth

I've never heard it. When did they discover the truth? Must of missed it, was it on the news?

"The problem with this world is fools and fanatics are so certain but the wise are so full of doubt"...Bertrand Russell

"those that speak don;t know, those that know don;t speak"...Lao Tzu

If there's no truth spoken then wouldn't they all be lies?

Why are there spin-doctors?

most people live on lies anyway, because they dont have the guts to face the truth, so given its all lies anyway, personally i'd rather mass folk were fed on lies with healthy social and environmental outcomes. michael moore has probably done more good than all of his detractors combined, who gives a fuck if his methodology isnt pure as the driven snow.

....and that's the bottom line!

Peace

[chilli]

What if he inspires someone to ask questions rather than take your local MP's word as gospel then that person does something that exposes the corruption in their local council? That'd make what Mike Moore does right IMO. It's totally possible.

How are you defining 'corruption' here? If there's no difference between truth and lies, there's no corruption.

Their prior beliefs won't be as strong as they once were, if they truely believed whatever their prior beliefs were they wouldn't need to question them, the fact that they questioned them should smack them in the face and make them realise that maybe they should go off and check the validity of what they believe.

Yeah, the problem is that despite your naive belief that this is what should happen, you'd be hard pressed to show that it does.

....and that's the bottom line!

Are you saying komodo's statement is true? If not, what else do you mean?

[komodo]

Err, exactly what good has he done? Like IllegalBrain said, he preaches to the choir, nobody else is hearing him.

i can't prove youre wrong, but i don't suppose you have any statistics to back that up either. it seems likely to me that millions have accidentally seen him pop up on their tv screen sometime or other and deliver some leftist alternative info that breaks up the saturation of right wing info a little.

it's a little difficult not to notice when someone enters a ficus tree into your local election, campaigns for it, and it actually corners a (very small) percentage of the vote. i think his stuff reaches a lot of people incidentally, if not directly, and is subversive and effective in this way... and pretty amusing too.

"...the New Jersey Ficus could spark a new branch of government as more than 20 Ficus plants are challenging incumbents around the country."

another good thing people like this do is give a voice in the public domain to many that are by and large excluded from it, which can aid them in feeling stronger or even taking action themselves:

"'I realize I'm there as a stand-in, for all the average, you know, Joes out there who don't get to make a movie to express their point of view, which happens to be similar to mine, so they can sit there in the theater, and give the screen the old Bronx cheer every time we walk into those corporate headquarters, or do something that is for them' says Moore. "

Edited June 19, 2007 by komodo

[chilli]

Err, exactly what good has he done?

"it's a little difficult not to notice when someone enters a ficus tree into your local election, campaigns for it, and it actually corners a (very small) percentage of the vote. i think his stuff reaches a lot of people..."

LMAO

[No_One]

Are you saying komodo's statement is true? If not, what else do you mean?

I'm saying he gets it, He's switched on, He's in the know, His milkshake friends are better than yours...ummmmm , He got game, He's the shiznit, He da man, He got skills, etc.

How are you defining 'corruption' here? If there's no difference between truth and lies, there's no corruption.

I'll run with the dictionary on this one, I won't define corruption cause that's a label we give the acts of those that are "corrupt" - what d'ya reckon?, is that cool with you?

cor·rupt (kə-rŭpt') pronunciation

adj.

1. Marked by immorality and perversion; depraved.

2. Venal; dishonest: a corrupt mayor.

3. Containing errors or alterations, as a text: a corrupt translation.

4. Archaic. Tainted; putrid.

"Time for some class participation, IllegalBrain can I use you an an example - Thanks" said the Teacher.

"Now, If I was to tell you that you're the shiznit and you were to leave our demonstration under the assumption you were the shiznit you would be believing in a lie spun by me, in this instance I would be corrupt and would be seen as corruption on my part. Howver, If I told you I thought you were better off throwing the dunce cap on and doing some thinking/learning for a while you would then be believing in a truth cause it's actually what I believe in. Can you see the difference, I know it's hard but if you squint you can just make out what I'm on about?"

Yeah, the problem is that despite your naive belief that this is what should happen, you'd be hard pressed to show that it does.

Prove that it doesn't then champ!

BTW, That's the exact attitude they want you to have.

"People shouldn't fear their Government, The Government should fear it's people".....V for Vendetta

Admittedly the Government do have the guns and the jails so I'm not saying take up arms and revolt but what I am saying is go get clued up on the game and fight for change in other ways i.e. beat them at their own game (within the law).

Some people don;t think and need leaders to do it for 'em, they'll follow whoever spins the shit the best, make your lies sound better than theres and they'll come to you hence (eventually) stealing the power away from the Government.

Ultimately, we answer to the Government but who does the Government answer to?

What's their agenda/Grand-plan?

Where are they taking us?

Do we wanna go there?

What are you prepared to do about stopping it from happening?

Peace

[chilli]

Hi Shiznit, I mean Shiva,

I'm saying he gets it, He's switched on, He's in the know, His milkshake friends are better than yours...ummmmm , He got game, He's the shiznit, He da man, He got skills, etc.

Yeah, because you think what he said is correct, right, true... the opposite of false. Maybe you guys should get a room.

I'll run with the dictionary on this one, I won't define corruption cause that's a label we give the acts of those that are "corrupt" - what d'ya reckon?, is that cool with you?

cor·rupt (kə-rŭpt') pronunciation

adj.

1. Marked by immorality and perversion; depraved.

2. Venal; dishonest: a corrupt mayor.

3. Containing errors or alterations, as a text: a corrupt translation.

4. Archaic. Tainted; putrid.

Your dictionary definition only serves to underscore my point that if truth/lies are relative to the individual, there can be no such thing as corruption. There can be no 'immorality,' no' dishonesty,' no 'errors'... unless you leave the quotation marks in, but post-structuralism is so passe.

"Time for some class participation, IllegalBrain can I use you an an example - Thanks" said the Teacher.

"Now, If I was to tell you that you're the shiznit and you were to leave our demonstration under the assumption you were the shiznit you would be believing in a lie spun by me, in this instance I would be corrupt and would be seen as corruption on my part. Howver, If I told you I thought you were better off throwing the dunce cap on and doing some thinking/learning for a while you would then be believing in a truth cause it's actually what I believe in. Can you see the difference, I know it's hard but if you squint you can just make out what I'm on about?"

Nothing difficult there... and you picked a poor analogy. If I say 'Shiva is a fuckwit' that's just my personal opinion... but if I said 'Shiva says I'm wrong about him being a fuckwit and I say Shiva's wrong about me being a dunce, so who will adjudicate?' That might be getting nearer to the dilemma you're trying to illustrate. What you're missing is that when I say 'Shiva is outside fucking a dead horse,' the whole class can run to the window and watch... it is verifiable, and therefore either true or false, and I am either lying, telling the truth, or deluded, thus believing a lie to be truth.

Prove that it doesn't then champ!

I will when Iraq can prove they don't have WMD's.

BTW, That's the exact attitude they want you to have.

That there's a difference between truth and lies? Good, I'll side with 'them' then.

Some people don;t think and need leaders to do it for 'em, they'll follow whoever spins the shit the best, make your lies sound better than theres and they'll come to you hence (eventually) stealing the power away from the Government.

If you believe what you are saying is lies, then why are you bothering to try and 'change' anything? Where does all your noble indignation come from? Seems like you still believe in right and wrong after all on a gut level. At least you are realistic about the logical outcome of your moral relativism... komodo still wants to have his cake and eat it too.

Ultimately, we answer to the Government but who does the Government answer to?

This would have been a much better argument to use as your illustration earlier... besides, maybe they will answer to God, I hear he's got mad skill.

[komodo]

ok. totally off topic but this thread will do fine for a letter to illegalbrain.

you think i'm inconsistent and contradictory regarding the formation of my morality. bah, the fuck you'd know. its not my fault if you don't understand my ideas, i have certainly tried to explain them to you at length in various threads. our conversations have gone nowhere constructive and it now feels to me like you just want my attention so you can fight with someone. thats an interpersonal dynamic i am totally not into.

i realise i'm inviting further aggression/snide remarks by posting this, but i thought i might as well explain why i'm not interested in being drawn into further conversation with you as i now stop doing so.

peace

[No_One]

you think i'm inconsistent and contradictory regarding the formation of my morality. bah, the fuck you'd know. its not my fault if you don't understand my ideas, i have certainly tried to explain them to you at length in various threads. our conversations have gone nowhere constructive and it now feels to me like you just want my attention so you can fight with someone. thats an interpersonal dynamic i am totally not into

I reckon he's just trying to form an understanding of reality through playing this part he's playing i.e. say what you really think than replace that stupidity with whatever replies he gets.

Yeah, because you think what he said is correct, right, true... the opposite of false. Maybe you guys should get a room.

I agree with Komodo ya fuck-tard, it's just like how you agree with those that think ignorance is bliss, ya don't know for sure but you've reached that conclusion after digesting what evidence you have at hand, deciding "that'll do pig" and now you're running with it. Good luck to ya.

If you believe what you are saying is lies, then why are you bothering to try and 'change' anything? Where does all your noble indignation come from? Seems like you still believe in right and wrong after all on a gut level. At least you are realistic about the logical outcome of your moral relativism... komodo still wants to have his cake and eat it too.

That's the thing with truth, it has a ceiling effect i.e. ya can never know what it is for certain but the closer you get to it the better you're radar becomes at detecting incorrect interpretations of it. Komodo knows this and just couldn't be fucked going back to kindergarten on your arse to share his ideas in totality, building's need foundations and you're trying to build the penthouse with out them, it's not gonna happen champ, I suggest you go lay a slab and build the lower levels first.

Your dictionary definition only serves to underscore my point that if truth/lies are relative to the individual, there can be no such thing as corruption. There can be no 'immorality,' no' dishonesty,' no 'errors'... unless you leave the quotation marks in, but post-structuralism is so passe.

It was my point to start with but you can have it if you need it, I have plenty.....No, really - you take it, I want you to have it. Cheers.

I'm not explaining it to ya again so go sit in the corner and listen for a while.

Peace

[apothecary]

So to sum up 3 pages of running in circles.

One side of this discussion believes that those who base their entire argument around 'revealing the truth of a situation' should generally not lie to get their point across. On this side of the discussion, we like to call these people liars, and generally we discredit those on the 'right' for being liars, just as much as the liars on the 'left'.

We believe that lies are unacceptable and untenable in such a situation. We expect that those opposing those we call liars will hold themselves to the standard of truth.

There is also the other side of this discussion, who believes that "it's all relative man" and lying is 100% ok, as long as you are furthering the goals for their side (the 'left') rather than those with whom they disagree (the 'right').

They think everyone lies anyway, therefore that makes it ok.

Those of us on the 'no lying' side of the discussion think moral relativism in this case is a bullshit argument: simply saying because I cannot speak the truth, or do not know what the truth is, this does not justify DELIBERATE LIES.

I may be a flash in the pan of this universe, who does not know the truth, but I can still know when I see the not truth!

As for proof of the good that Michael Moore has done, well shit guys, the proof is in the pudding. Michael Moore has not changed the circumstances for any of the people whom he has 'championed' in any of his documentaries, even in the slightest.

You can still buy guns at Walmart, big corporations are still molesting the little guy, and George Bush is running more rampant than ever, and hell I bet after 'Sicko' comes out, the US health care system will still be in shambles.

If you reckon MM has 'raised awareness' as his 'done good' then how come you do not attribute this 'done good' to the mass media, which MM loves to deftly edit into his documentaries?

After all, he wouldn't be able to have a documentary about Flint Michigan without all those newsreels, and a lot more people saw those than his documentaries.

Therefore, since it is all lies, and the goal is to raise awareness of lies, the mass media should be your hero, not Michael Moore.

[chilli]

"ok. totally off topic but this thread will do fine for a letter to illegalbrain.

you think i'm inconsistent and contradictory regarding the formation of my morality. bah, the fuck you'd know. its not my fault if you don't understand my ideas, i have certainly tried to explain them to you at length in various threads. our conversations have gone nowhere constructive and it now feels to me like you just want my attention so you can fight with someone. thats an interpersonal dynamic i am totally not into.

i realise i'm inviting further aggression/snide remarks by posting this, but i thought i might as well explain why i'm not interested in being drawn into further conversation with you as i now stop doing so."

Sounds like a cop out, but I'm glad you're taking my advice from another thread: "If you find talking with me so unpleasant, the easiest solution would be to stop talking."

I think I understand your ideas well enough, I just don't think they're consistent... why do you have such a problem with this? I'm sure there are things I believe that you find inconsistent, its not a big deal its just disagreement... if you don't want your ideas questioned, then don't talk about them in the Philosophy and Spirituality forum.

I don't want to fight with you at all, and you've been taking this "it now feels to me like you just want my attention so you can fight with someone" angle from the outset... get over yourself mate, it would be a weight off my mind if you stopped responding to my posts altogether.

I haven't been drawing you into conversation, just answering your questions.

But if you want to take the "I'm not talking to you anymore" route then whatever... one less hypersensitive whiny child to contend with.

Edited June 20, 2007 by IllegalBrain

[chilli]

Hi Shiva,

I agree with Komodo ya fuck-tard, it's just like how you agree with those that think ignorance is bliss, ya don't know for sure but you've reached that conclusion after digesting what evidence you have at hand, deciding "that'll do pig" and now you're running with it. Good luck to ya.

The second part of your sentence doesn't make sense to me, but as for agreeing with komodo, I know you do... but why do you agree with him? Obviously, because you think what he said is right, why are you having trouble with this? Fuck-tard... imaginative, shroomytonos would love it.

That's the thing with truth, it has a ceiling effect i.e. ya can never know what it is for certain but the closer you get to it the better you're radar becomes at detecting incorrect interpretations of it. Komodo knows this and just couldn't be fucked going back to kindergarten on your arse to share his ideas in totality, building's need foundations and you're trying to build the penthouse with out them, it's not gonna happen champ, I suggest you go lay a slab and build the lower levels first.

I understand what you're trying to say very well, apparently better than you do. There's nothing new or groundbreaking there mate, its a basic concept... I just think its mostly hollow. Strangely though, I find myself agreeing with what you wrote in the first part of your paragraph there... that there is an ultimate truth, but we can't know what it is for certain. I don't think komodo shares the idea that there is some kind of ultimate truth we can move towards though, so you might have your tongue stuck down the back of the wrong trousers.

It was my point to start with but you can have it if you need it, I have plenty.....No, really - you take it, I want you to have it. Cheers.

Maybe you need to reread the thread... you said:

"What if he inspires someone to ask questions rather than take your local MP's word as gospel then that person does something that exposes the corruption in their local council? That'd make what Mike Moore does right IMO."

My point is that if right and wrong are relative, then your use of the word 'corruption' and your idea that it should be exposed, and of course your opinion that Michael Moore is 'right' is inconsistent, meaningless and futile... it would be pretty weird if this was your point. I don't think it was, was it?

By the way simply saying that I don't get it doesn't really constitute an answer, it just makes it sound like you don't have one.

Edited June 20, 2007 by IllegalBrain

[chilli]

Therefore, since it is all lies, and the goal is to raise awareness of lies, the mass media should be your hero, not Michael Moore.

But that idea doesn't appeal to Shiva and komodo, therefore its not true.

Edited June 20, 2007 by IllegalBrain

[komodo]

There is also the other side of this discussion, who believes that "it's all relative man" and lying is 100% ok,

getting a bit b&w here apothecary. at no point did i claim lying is 100% ok, nor use that phrase you assign to 'my side of the argument'. i do not think lying is 100% ok and strive to eliminate untruth from my own life. however, in the media, i think 'representation of the facts' is almost always skewed, so to talk about it in terms of "lies or truth" seems to not engage with the great grey blob it really is. it seems idealistic and not pragmatic.

media is not just about content. a vital aspect is how that contact is presented, or spun. moore spins, yes, but he spins against the corporation, i don't see why this should be vilified just because we don't like spin. my position on moore is not affected by isolated accusations of direct misinformation because i support his intentions and believe his body of work has positive outcomes overall.

Edited June 20, 2007 by komodo

[No_One]

Fuck I'm over this........

Apoth, remember my bowling ball analogy? - ultimately we as a species are the bowling ball and our minds steer our course of action, our minds digest the information our senses receive, if the information our senses receive is over-laden with material suggesting to our minds that we steer our bodies in one particular way then the majority of minds are going to steer their bodies in the direction that material suggested they do - this is what they call narrow mindedness.

You're right when you say lies are wrong but there are people out there that can't tell when their being lied to i.e. they watch/become hypnotised by the left hand while the right hand throws the punches.

I can't believe I'm using this but have you seen Gladiator? You know the part where Caesar kills his dad cause he wants power before he's ready, if he then went off and had a son of his own and raised him to think like him his mind-set/understanding of reality would be replicated and replicated and replicated until that became the generic mind-set i.e. real virtues are forgotten replaced the oppinions of the original tyrant. Now we have hindsight and can see what damage the mind-set of the original tyrant does we can delete it and upgrade it to one that does what we need it to do.

Therefore, since it is all lies, and the goal is to raise awareness of lies, the mass media should be your hero, not Michael Moore.

Remember how I said judge the work and not the man?

The second part of your sentence doesn't make sense to me

I'll add it to the long list of things that don't make sense to you. You get an A for effort though.

[puts a gold star on you're collar]

IllegalBrain: Instead of coming here and asking people for answers why don't ya go find them for yourself and share parts of what you find with others?

"Don't be on the know be a part of the mystery"....Dude from What the Bleep.

"Imagination is more important than knowledge"...Einstein

I don't think komodo shares the idea that there is some kind of ultimate truth we can move towards though,

Komodo puts "Peace" at the bottom of his posts now, clearly that's an Ultimate Truth we can move toward i.e. homeostasis of the Universe and the beings contained within it (ignoring planetary motion).

Have you read "Waiting for Godot"? I'm gonna wait for him peacefully biding my time thinking, dancing, laughing and regularly rehearsing the act of copulation, I reckon that's heaps better way to get your kicks than fucken the environment and shootin' dudes.

you might have your tongue stuck down the back of the wrong trousers.

My tongues no where near anybodies trousers chief, I don't need moral support if that's what you've chosen as you're latest insinuation.

Peace

[apothecary]

komodo you snipped my quote to make it seem like I was saying something which is different to what I actually said. Are you MM?

Here is what I said

There is also the other side of this discussion, who believes that "it's all relative man" and lying is 100% ok, as long as you are furthering the goals for their side (the 'left') rather than those with whom they disagree (the 'right').

Note the, as long as.

Now, considering what you said ...

most people live on lies anyway, because they dont have the guts to face the truth, so given its all lies anyway, personally i'd rather mass folk were fed on lies with healthy social and environmental outcomes.

How does my sentence not precisely describe yours? I mean there it is in writing, you said as long as the lies are leftist, then you're fine with it.

I gave a specific circumstance and parameters under which my words were to be read, you can't take what I said out of context and accuse me of saying you're 100% ok with lying in all circumstances.

[chilli]

Fuck I'm over this........

Seeya then.

IllegalBrain: Instead of coming here and asking people for answers why don't ya go find them for yourself and share parts of what you find with others?

Its an answer to my critique of your muddled up sentences I asked for, and you're the only one that can provide them. If its too difficult don't bother yourself, you're reticence is answer enough... usually I find when people are insult heavy and content lite they generally don't have much to offer.

Komodo puts "Peace" at the bottom of his posts now, clearly that's an Ultimate Truth we can move toward i.e. homeostasis of the Universe and the beings contained within it (ignoring planetary motion).

Well, whoopty doo. I could just as easily start tacking peace onto the end of my posts as well, but its just a word isn't it? I find people generally attach it as a way of qualifying their otherwise unpeaceful behavior. Besides, I don't think komodo believes in ultimate truth no matter how much you try and impute it to him, but maybe I've got him wrong, its certainly happened before.

Have you read "Waiting for Godot"?

No, I seem to remember my little brother read it in year 10 and explained it to me. Anyway, I'm still waiting for a recommendation on Joseph Campbell, I can only read so much.

I'm gonna wait for him peacefully biding my time thinking, dancing, laughing and regularly rehearsing the act of copulation, I reckon that's heaps better way to get your kicks than fucken the environment and shootin' dudes.

I reckon that's a better way to get kicks too, although the shooting is starting to sound inviting. Still, I don't see the relevance to this discussion... oh, let me guess it must be because I'm not as smart as you.

My tongues no where near anybodies trousers chief, I don't need moral support if that's what you've chosen as you're latest insinuation.

It was hardly an insinuation, all the arse licking was just starting to turn my stomach... and I think enlisting support was exactly what you were doing, although I'm not sure moral is the most appropriate adjective.

Edited June 20, 2007 by IllegalBrain