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The Future Of David Hicks

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Personally I have better things to do than jack off over my copy of stupid white men ... I could handle that if it wasnt coming from an obese white middle aged male prone to rampant air travel and buying of cheap chinese/costa rican made clothes.

Hahaha, I agree - the man is something of a buffoon.

Yes, we end up with some poor bastards being stacked naked into a pyramid... but then we have courtmartials and media hype over it...

I could never quite get how this was portrayed. Yes, obviously it was wrong...but the left-wing-luvvies really made such an issue of this without rationally thinking about it. The most telling point regards this scandal was that someone within the American military dobbed in the dickheads responsible. Which is to say, yes there are bad eggs everywhere, but there are plenty of good people willing to stand up and do the right thing aswell. It would have been relatively easy for America to hide this (or at least try), but they went public with it - thus reinforcing some transparency of their actions in Iraq.

The overwhelming vast majority of coalition soldiers are doing their job best they can, and are not evil warmongers.

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The overwhelming vast majority of coalition soldiers are doing their job best they can, and are not evil warmongers.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...7050402151.html

Not so vast

ok well greendreams i think its obvious you dont know alot of the actual history behind the situation at hand and have bought into the media bullshit machine or you just have a strong,somewhat blind view on it.

Dont you think half a million people(minimum) [500,000], during a 10 or so year period dieing at the hands of western sanction reason enough for them to be angry? and lets not include the few hundred thousand that are going to end up dying or are already dead in iraq alone now. how many westerners have islamic extreamists killed?

I have a stong opinion about this by seeing both sides and looking at history. and i as a "neutralist" like sweeden on this matter but my opinion is that iv seen america fk around too many people,and they have their fingers in everyones affairs.

Im not saying ild rather live under a terrorist islamic shria law goverment, what i am saying is out western goverments have to stop fucking people around, that is what has started this whole thing in the first place, way b4 september 11.

America is a Capitalist nation, they capitalise on others. simple in my mind. but alas it is what it is, if they can get away with killing 3 million vietnamise then i guess they can do what they please... and again, any "hatered" senced is not directly to all americans, but rather like t said, the ones that run the show.

this topic bores me now, fkn hicks lol

Edited by Jesus On Peyote

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Remember... there are people out there that want you, your family, your freedom and your way of life erased forever so they can reinstate their backwards, ignorant, child-women-faith abusing society to do "gods work".

Do you mean that country over the other side of the world? Um, what's its name? It's on the tip of my tongue... They've got some evangelist president called Shrub or something...

I don't think I'd like a world that you ran, GD. Your posts here have generally struck me as intelligent and well thought out, but on this - who decides who's toes get cut off, and how many? And what for? Where does it stop? Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? I don't think that true "terrorists" should be treated with kid gloves (although it would certainly make their confessions a bit more believable), but in this particular situation, it doesn't seem like the available evidence is strong enough to justify the punishments inflicted (not to mention the human rights violations - why would ya sign a geneva convention if you don't want to abide by it - unless someone's electrocuting your balls, I mean). And should these choices really be left to a country with a justice system like the US? Do you know how many death sentences are later repealed? (no, neither do I, but it was a lot - something like 25% in one state, I think) And that's only in the states that allow appeals. Call someone a terrorist (that word is getting thrown around WAY too much these days) & what chance do they have of a fair trial, or appealing the verdict? All their rights get thrown out the window, BEFORE any evidence is produced - then they torture them for 5 years, and whaddya know, a guilty verdict. It turns into a fucking witch hunt & the truth gets lost along the way - but hey, we've got a scapegoat, so everyone feels safe - disaster averted.

Or better yet, everyone still feels vaguely threatened and votes for the high-military-spending government for yet another term.

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"its obvious you dont know alot of the actual history"... any chance youve worked out who the Arabs actually are yet? Call me ignorant why dontya.... are we at war with Dubai are we? Those pesky gulf dwellers, geeze I dunno...How many ISLAMIC people have Islamic extremists killed? And where did i say that a local population has no right to be angry, or to fight back? You want to wage a war, cool beans... try to avoid nailbombing SMALL CHILDREN SHOPPING WITH THEIR MUMS when there are NO MILITARY TARGETS AROUND AT ALL but you have heard that some people holding stalls at those markets MERELY HAPPEN TO SUPPORT SOME IDEALS OF THE NEWCOMERS.maybe get some uniforms, a declared set of goals and a defined command structure that has an actually physical address somewhere. I don't think you actually know what youre on about matie, I think you're just on a mission to be the Ideal Human...which is a noble thing, and at no point have I said that you shouldnt/couldnt think or feel as you do, or that you're a bad bloke for thinking it... its your opinion, based on your view of the evidence you have seen. You read that WP article and think WOW...10 percent! thats heaps! I read it and think wow, thats 90 percent that hold back from it (or had sense to bullshit about it eh?) Four in 10 said they approve of such illegal abuse if it would save the life of a fellow soldier.... would you approve of it if it saved the LIFE of a mate of yours? a relative? a friend? Or would you figure that the entire life of one person is worth less than the back teeth or little fingers or someone that was hell bent on killing you anyway... I do not support aggression against civilians, and tactics have been shown in some cases to be on the heavy and harsh side.. but in some ways I reckon we could do what needs doing and get out a lot more quickly if the forces there could just act as is appropriate rather than having to maintain a facade of being about as mean as the Home Ice Cream Man. As I said... I don't agree with ya. Doesn't mean I am stupid, uninformed, or ignorant... just that I am coming from a different place. You seem all for diversity and tolerance...to a point? and not one real far from yourself at that...

to compare the odd excess of people and the law machine in the US with states that wont accept a complaint of rape from a women unless seconded by her dad or brothers... and can hang her if its foudn to be bullshit...thats just silly. Sorry. But it is. I never said the US was perfect...but theyre an easy target. Noone seems to be jumping up n down on anyone in this...just them.. like deliberately devolutionary religious morons are only Made In America (though they do churn out a few, as do we).

lol... yep, blinded by the media machine thats me :D as fer history.... methinks I've spent a lil more time reading legit milit. hist. and talking to people that are qualified in that field then you have, so I really don't give that much of a shit what you can find on Wiki. If I were blinded by media, well I'd either be drivelling like you, or would be convinved that Our Boys Are Saints and Every Islamic Person Is Evil... which is not the case, taking time to actually read what the fuck I am saying would clear that up... but I just trigger certain prepackaged responses I know... this is not a conversation by any means.

illegal combatants have voided their rights under martial law, they know that, our blokes know that when they run around in plain clothes they lose all their rights to fair treatment too... not saying its perfect, buts its just how its done.THEY knnow that, we know that, and believe it or not we dont shoot, mistreat, drug or deprive nearly as many people as we have legal right to... it is not a cheap business detaining, transporting, interrogating someone, we dont do it just at the drop of a hat... many, many things never make it to the papers, and paperso nly print things that they reckon the readership already agrees with anyway... remember that.

sanctions like that are not ideal by any stretch of the imagination... but its a bit like saying that well Timmy, youre oldies are smack dealing scum and we WOULD lock em up... but that would put you at a disadvantage...so we'll just let it slide eh? regardless of the pain theyre causing other people thru their own knowing actions... we impose sanctions likethat mainly on people that are fucking over their own populace anyway with their ManAsGod routine...and they know it. My point is.... what are we meant to do? just let everyone have whatever they want, whenever they want it, no matter its impact on us? You do realise that most of the Iraqi death rate these days comes from their fellow iraqi, NOT US? If it was all about sanctions, bla bla (which most locals accept was saddams fault, not theirs and not ours) surely theyd all hold hands and then join up AGAINST US? rather than killing BAKERS? jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesus. I spent two hours on a bus from brissie to toowoomba once with a trio of Iranian women... people in that part of the world are a LOT more understanding of why we do what we do then those like you would give credit for. But they dont write for major news services either, so you havent heard their side.

as for the toes... if I fell into enemy hands , out of uniform, serving with an illegitimate irregular force, they can shoot me. If the most they do is cut my toes off, whilst I like being able to run... it could always be worse. And who decides, and whos toes? well... if you are picked up in an apartment in the middle of baghdad sitting amidst a hundred kilos of small nails and semtex, surrounded by literature about western imperialist dogs and inferior shiiite forms of life... theres a good candidate there. Because if we hurt him enough (pain, in a warzone? harsh I know...) he might just spill his guts and tell us where he got the goods from, whos orders he is acting on, what they have planned next... you do realise how they got the info that lead to the arrest of say RPG buying blokes that plan in aiming them at Sydney? Or the info that led to the arrests of a crew in England cooking up just-about-reay-to-roll Ricin? When alls said n done... as I said quite clearly...being personally connected to some of the combatants in these much bandied about parts of the world, and knowing that they are put at greater risk by having to operate with rules that the other guys dont bother about... basically if making some terrorist piglet squeal (a terrorist is someone that happily attacks civvie targets to make their point rather than trying to destroy military infrastructure, its really NOT that complicated... a legit resistance force are NOT terrorists by default, but by their modes of attack may become so...ferfuckssakes, read up on it) is going to keep my SIBLINGS and STEPFATHER ALIVE....the rest of MY FAMILY HAPPY IN THAT KNOWLEDGE...then I'm all for it. Wouldnt you be? Just that if we can hurt someone til they tell us WHICH apartment to raid, it saves us having to use the old theory of just bombinng the whole suburb back to the stonage Israeli style... would you prefer that, would you?

If someone adducted say...i dunno...your MOTHER... would you feed them well and teach them a trade til they liked you enough to tell you where she was being held? or would you tape the bastard to achair and get a pair of pliers... I know what I'd do. Seems that makes me Bad People with some, but to be honest, if you are that out of touch with how the world is actually run, I don't really have much time for your opinion anyway.It is easy to sit and be blissful and loving when you are not personally connected to what is happening beyond some typical underdog empathy common to all people that feel the yare on the fringes of things seeing those they view as someone else's fringes getting fucked around.

Eh, yez seem to think that the entire war is composed ONLY of the horrendous things that make the news or antinews here... its not that simple. If you had any real idea of just how many acts of simple human decency

Like the lack of response to my points about all the shit we cop if we DONT act in other lands, Rwanda, Timor, etc... I think some people just like to bitch about govts. because theyre a lil too old to bitch about their parents but still have held onto the same wiring.

you do realise that some days of the week, our lads kill noone in Iraq and those simple peace lovin iraqis kill HUNDREDS OF THEIR OWN PEOPLE (look up Suicide Bomber + Iraq + Civilian eh?)while our boys stand there wondering what the fuck theyre meant to do about it. THis is the classic situation of someone seeing some arsehole hitting their missus, and when they step in and say something they BOTH start laying into him. What ARE we meant to do? Do you have any actual suggestions, or just criticism for a system that yep, aint perfect, but is a LOT better than what we went to war under in times past.

Simply stating that we should stop fucking people around...well, thats pretty groovy too... but you do realise that nature is based on things basically fucking over other things for their own survival? Life aint pretty... not all of us can just change the channel to get away from it.

Just because I disagree does not make me stupid...stupid would be "ah just kill em all bloody towelheads" like you hear plenty of people come out with... but it would seem youve decided that there is your line, and their line, and noone can stand in between. You also seemed to think that vietnam was "genocide"... interesting, when we had vietnamese people fighting...ummm...OTHER VIETNAMESE PEOPLE.... I think someone needs to look into THEIR history a bit more ... I dont like the winky smily, but you might as well insert it here >

The middle of the road approach is great, but tends to get you run over a bit more often :lol: war is shit...goes without saying. People get hurt, and sometimes they are people that don't deserve to be. But at least our side has some accountability...theres doesn't. And you can sit there and have your subtle fence sittin approach, noone from ASIS will turn up to your house and kill or hurt you for not being 100 percent behind the Cause...as would happen in parts of the world we are talkin about, at the hands of those peace loving freedom fighters you support so strongly. As for how many of us have been killed by them? well start at anzac cove and count up from there til yesterdays fatalities.

Its much harder to hate people when you've spent the evening at a wedding reception with em, OR have spent a bit of time reading about the faith, tradition and mythos of...that goes for both sides. But trust me... the combatantson all sides have less disdain for each other than some of their own people manage to hold for em...there is more professional respect there.

off to bury my head in the sand until the world can magically take care of itself... or gets run by someone more balanced than myself eh?

GD

edity bit... on reflection, its pointless... we arent even arguing the same point or theory. havagoodone. Just try to avoid calling anyone that doesnt entirely agree with you blind or ignorant, thats not real groovy man.Peace out.

Edited by greendreams

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hoki, :)

I think you might or should have known i dident mean all arabs when i said arabs.i know who and what they are i was just hurrying .

my knowlage of the history go further then wiki, am i not allowed to post a reference? and am sorry if i offended by questioning your knowledge on it.

However, i dont care what the dictionary explenation of genocide is, when 3 million people are killed, its genocide.

buuut you have a very republican view of it. and thats cool but i don agree with most of it.

i believe go back to the source and none of the shit in iraq would be happening if the US dident bullshit about WMds.you wouldent have bombs going off in baker spots and against civilians. And not to sound like a conspiracy thorist but their has been some evidence of British special forces bombing civilians in iraq..and its easy to see the US is trying to divide sunnis and shias to destabilize the area even more.

On anither note, my brothers girlfriend's, sister is with an iraqi who left just b4 the war started so hes told me abit about how it was b4 the war and how it is from what hes seeing on the news and from what he hears from his relatives there.He recons it used to be safe and almost normal,in terms of security,hes a shia also.

i have no answers on what to do and i dont want to act like i do, but i like to know whats going on, and wasent offering an answer but just my opinion.

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illegal combatants have voided their rights under martial law, they know that, our blokes know that when they run around in plain clothes they lose all their rights to fair treatment too... not saying its perfect, buts its just how its done.THEY knnow that, we know that, and believe it or not we dont shoot, mistreat, drug or deprive nearly as many people as we have legal right to... it is not a cheap business detaining, transporting, interrogating someone, we dont do it just at the drop of a hat... many, many things never make it to the papers, and paperso nly print things that they reckon the readership already agrees with anyway... remember that.

Hmmm, pray tell GD, under which law is the war in Iraq legal?

By your own justification, coalition troops in Iraq have lost their right to fair treatment, and the "terrorists" can nail bomb them fair and square.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2005-09/...ent_3514065.htm

BAGHDAD, Sept. 19 (Xinhuanet) -- Iraqi police detained two British soldiers in civilian clothes in the southern city Basra for firing on a police station on Monday, police said.

...

The two soldiers were using a civilian car packed with explosives, the source said.

Uniforms, command hierarchy and a physical address, do not a "legitimate" force make (as mercenary killers all over the world have shown).

You also say that sanctions are imposed on people who are fucking with their own populace, and portray it as some kind of grace to bestow a sanction instead of a bomb.

However, you conveniently gloss over, for example the case of Saddam Hussein who was only able to grab power with the blessing and assistance of the CIA (for the means of fomenting war in Iran). Is it really nescessary for me to point out the fallacy here?

As for the US being an easy target, well, I say the once home of free and proud has made their bed and deserve to sleep in it.

Edited by apothecary

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GD u slammed JOP pretty hard about the Arab comment considering u stereotyped Arabs (islamists) urself.

"But those wise old men with the nice old beards"

Sorry I dont see ur point GD, because we (the coalition of the willing) have the ability to use more (if not ultimate) force it justifies using the force we have?

Or it justifies directly contriviening U.N law & attacking a soveriegn country unprovoked?

I think its pretty pointless arguing who is worse the U.S gov its military & soldiers or "Terrorists/freedom fighters".

Both have commited attrocities & are commiting attrocities, not just to either side but to innocents & their own people as well.

Saddam was a bastard but that in no way justifies what we have done to Iraq or the Iraqi people.

Poor old David Hicks suffered attrociously & his family (I couldnt watch any interview with Terry without tears welling up) & justice wasnt served in any manner.

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"But those wise old men with the nice old beards" .... my poor choice of words, cleared up in the reply in response to Ace being baffled as to why I was suddenly seeming to be putting on a Klan hood..by that phrase I meant the elders and leaders of the various terribly oppressive and repressive forces and parties from that neck of the woods... who were before I made that remark seemingly being portrayed as nothing but love light n good intentions in comparison to people as evil as Tony Blair (who still hunts welshman for sport dontyaknow :P )

Sorry I dont see ur point GD, because we (the coalition of the willing) have the ability to use more (if not ultimate) force it justifies using the force we have?... no, not necessarily. also something else I have said before. We do some HORRIFIC things in other countries... my main line there is that it seems we are constantly being criticised while they are being romanticised.

Or it justifies directly contriviening U.N law & attacking a soveriegn country unprovoked?.... see the one up there about the bloke next door that wants to set your house on fire... just because you lent him the can of two stroke he plans to use to do it years ago when you wanted to be on his good side, doesnt mean hes not a worry now.

I think its pretty pointless arguing who is worse the U.S gov its military & soldiers or "Terrorists/freedom fighters".... me too... one takes its own people to court for doing the wrong thing (over a certain limit, granted)..and the others glorify massacreing civvies as some form of subhuman life, void thru choice of faith/country of origin..

Both have commited attrocities & are commiting attrocities, not just to either side but to innocents & their own people as well.... absolutely. We all have a lot to learn. I am not advocating war as the answer to all the worlds problems...quite the opposite , though I couldve been clearer about that... mainly I take exception to the assumption that atrocities are routine or condoned by the command structure.

Saddam was a bastard but that in no way justifies what we have done to Iraq or the Iraqi people..... in some ways, ya right there... but maybe if the Iraqi people were less prone to blowing each other to hell, and more interested in living in a modern, intelligent, rational democracy (at least an attempt at one, not a fake one with a sense of calm order underpinned with fear of torture)... we could all go home a bit sooner. For every article about water plants being bombed, I can find you one about a sappers div building a community centre somewhere. One does not justify the other entirely, it wuold be silly to think so...

Poor old David Hicks suffered attrociously & his family (I couldnt watch any interview with Terry without tears welling up) & justice wasnt served in any manner.... gotta agree with you there, its easy for us to get caught up in our own little dramas and forget how we can make other people feel whether we intend to or not.

I saw a well made docco a while back filmed in the weeks leading up to the invasion of Iraq, stunning just HOW normal it seemed. BUt then theyd try asking someone about the govt... and theyd clam up. Instantly. With the flashing look of panic in their eyes you see in the children of abusive parents asked where the bruises came from. Running amok with guns and bombs will never establish peace... but do you really think if we just upped stumps and pulled out tonight, theyd all just put the guns and bombs down? The people that our forces spend the bulk of their time hassling right or wrong are insurgents from surrounding regions anyway, rather than Iraqis who in many cases, simply want to geto n with life and raise their kids (as I have also said before). If you are stupid enough not to stop at a military checkpoint in a carbomb prone area, and some poor 22 year old bloke has to shoot you or he loses his job and maybe his life as far as his superiors have told him... the roadblock is the oppression, the events that come of it are just common sense. of a tragic kind. If Iraq was so damned normal, why can I remember seeing another great docco about music of the new gulf war, an interview with some young metalheads who had to practice in secret underground because they could be locked and up killed for being into it or playing it at all... not saying that their house copping some shells is worth being able to play some death metal... but just because all seems well, does not mean it is. The old abusive household routine...

I know you know something beyond wiki JOP... but in the same way you seem to think that I have just bought into the mediacon driven bullshit, I think you have bought into the antimediacon bullshit. By your own admission, you have no better solution... but are happy to sit and sling shit about the actions that some people are taking in good faith. Thats a bit dodgy I reckon.

Apoth, we told em we were coming, we turned up in clearly marked vehicles, aircraft, established defined zones, rules, standards, processes... we didn't just send a few planeloads of blokes over to buy up local agrichems and start poisoning people. If ANY war is legal, that one is as legal as most. For the record, I didnt say the war was "legal" anyway... hence why you couldnt actually quote me as saying as much... but mailing illegal plant matter all over the fucking countryside isnt real legal either matie, that doesnt mean there are ways that you do and do not conduct your business and operations. Do you need helpful diagrams? Certainly, as I DID say, what we are doing seems more legal than doing fuck all when rwandans started up with the machetes (which noone seems to have an answer..... for why the hardleft will slag off when we do act, and just as quickly when we dont...any ideas? JOP, youre the genocide expert, any thoughts?). I would love to have a world with no war, where people just happily worked out between em a fair and equal division of all resources, where people could tolerate that the folks next door dont like to eat meat, like to spin while praying or want to have multiple wives. That is why I give a fair whack each year to oxfam, CAA, amnesty international... I am not the bayonet buffing bloodluster that seems to be the opinion being formed here... I just understand that death, violent death, can be an innate part of being a mammal , especially when trying to share a limited space and set of resources with other creatures that are different enough to disturb you, and similar enough to fuck with your head.

I also said up there somewhere that I have no personal worries to anyone that wants to attack, in a clear and declared way, any military target they see as a thraet to their own country... I don't think cutting reporters up, blowing up local supermarkets or trying to shell EVERY vehicle that uses a certain fairly important road is a clear and declared way... it sound like the typical chickenshit thuggery used by those that have always tried to play the "good people"...yeah...hence the balaclavas. If someone I care about were to cop it in a straight up firefight, or an IED laid in a critical location, that is complete bullshit but thats what happens when people join the army. We're all big people. But if , gods forbid, it happened almost as a byproduct of an incident designed from the start to kill and maim nothing but civilians from your own country... that would in many ways kind of void the efforts made, the potential sacrifice implied. I don't expect you to understand, it is a deeply personal thing.

Shru, what I said to JOP about his use of Arabs was more along the lines of "why do people tend to lump all the brown people in the middle east into one homogenus ethnic grouping, much the same that people tend to do with asian nationalities and cultures". Islam is not a genetic code, it is a religion. And many of the young men suiciding by carbomb are actually not all that devout as it turns out... its more done for the reasons that our young men are silly enough to go to war too.. but for some reason they don't mind killing their own countrymen if the "invaders" are a bit hard to get that week.

Eh.... basically I just resent the implication that western forces are more or less soulless, torturing, bloodthirsty creatures, and everything we every do anywhere is evil by default... whereas "they" on the other sides are entirely and automatically justified in anything they decide to do, to anyone, courtesy of someone listening to too much RATM as a kid, reading adbusters, or having a michael frante action figure. ALL sides are capable of, and guilty of, some terrible things. I never denied that. What I was hoping for was some understanding from you open minded tolerant plant folks that maybe, just maybe, someones toes ARE worth someone elses life... that somtimes, you can be a killer but not cruel...and that not everyone in a certain line of work is evil. I don't think every last iraqi combatant is evil, or acting out of line (once again, I said as much... I wish people would reply to what I say rather than what they think I must be saying based on the fact that I am saying anything different to them at all). But I do think that overall, western media and community is perhaps too critical of our forces, whilst forgetting just what the other side is actually doing on a daily basis.

For my inability to condemn as evil, heartless people an entire (and very diverse) range of professionals operating in a very variable environment under what most see as unreasonable rules from ALL angles (more common under UN activities of course)... I am being painted in as the cruel one. Interesting shit that.

As i said, easier to slag shit then come up with solutions... and its easier to regurgitate what you hear than actually sit and wonder about why it has become such a dominant way of thinking... there is nothing "counter" is what any of you has had to say, it is right down the centreline of some fairly processed and prepacked POV's. Thats cool, I just think itd be nice if I wasnt seen as some kind of Nazi for daring to suggest that maybe everyone in a warzone CAN be bastards, but more often than ya realise can be found to be going out of their way to do the "right" thing within a very warped and limited set of ethical standards.

ah, past it. You're blueing with a concept not a person, so I might as well shut up :P but if anyone has any idea of how we deal with the "damned if we do, damned if we dont" routine, I'd be very interested in hearing it.

off to eat cake (just a normal one). take care guys, either way I think we should all be grateful for where and mostly how we live... and that some people are willing to do things we are not to ensure that we have the choice of sitting here in idle speculation at all, rather than having to form our own "Resistance" out of necessity... eh, maybe you'd like to be a japanese colony for all I know.

GD

Edited by greendreams

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Apoth, we told em we were coming, we turned up in clearly marked vehicles, aircraft, established defined zones, rules, standards, processes... we didn't just send a few planeloads of blokes over to buy up local agrichems and start poisoning people. If ANY war is legal, that one is as legal as most. For the record, I didnt say the war was "legal" anyway... hence why you couldnt actually quote me as saying as much...

You defined the fighters as illegal combatants, and you know very well that this is what I was referring to when I said legality.

Being an apologist for slippery slope social/political norms is not cool. There is a clear and defined set of rules as to what makes a war legal, and just because the US has been skirting those rules since (hell even before) the Gulf of Tonkin resolution, that does not make this war "as legal as most".

The only thing that makes it so is tacit compliance with such acts by the voting populace. i.e. we don't care.

I saw a well made docco a while back filmed in the weeks leading up to the invasion of Iraq, stunning just HOW normal it seemed. BUt then theyd try asking someone about the govt... and theyd clam up. Instantly. With the flashing look of panic in their eyes you see in the children of abusive parents asked where the bruises came from. Running amok with guns and bombs will never establish peace... but do you really think if we just upped stumps and pulled out tonight, theyd all just put the guns and bombs down?

I'm sorry, you accuse others of prepackaged thinking, yet I have to say, I have heard this line a million times before.

A perfect example of ignoring the context of a situation (in this case, the context = history of the last twenty years) to prove a point.

"We" are the ones who put a psychotic homicidal dictator into power in the first place. "We" are the ones who are responsible for those flashing looks of panic.

And even though "we" use these civilians as a good excuse (you ever notice how the excuse changed from WMD to catching Saddam to catching the terrorists to defending the populace, etc etc) to hang around, nay, increase troops, you must be truly blind to think that "we" even give two shits about them.

"We" who care, do not arm our troops with white phosphor, which is essentially collateral damage weapon NUMBER TWO (after landmines).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4441902.stm

Maybe this seems more legal to you than machetes, but then again maybe you have never seen a household of Iraqi women and children run screaming from their home as their neighbourhood is painted in WP to "flush out terrorists".

Please do not misconstrue my words as a "pointless argument on who is worse" (sic). The record will show that I am happy to expose the ugly on all sides of the fucked up fence. Especially in the face of apologists.

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Guest Øskorei

Jihad on the universe, I reckon.

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Apoth, you put it the best way i can think of.

GD, you dident mention anything about the british soldiers.. any opinions?

and just one quick thing, Briton and spain got attacked afterthe afghanistan and iraq invasions..

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Yep....rightio. Completely correct on each and every point there, nicely done. Nice perception of my character too! Your talents are wasted here.

Yvan Eht Nioj, I'm off to actively campaign for the incineration of infant civilians. Or maybe not.Who can say for sure?

GD

yep, clearly facetious indeed. Our "facts" aren't getting any of us anywhere.

edity bit...edited to save people wasting time reading pointless, personal drivel.

Edited by greendreams

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FWIW

i reckon hicks is innocent on all counts - so far as law at the time goes

simply..framed

his involvemnet in afghanistan was prior to and nothing to do with the USA - so whats this enemy shite?

he could say- you invaded us motherfucker!

al qaeda and Taliban afghanistan jave very little to do with each other

far less than taliban afghanistan and the oil piplelines with USA interests have in common

if he went to fight "the west" - good on him

i fight "the west " too , internally

fuck US imperialism, war for oil, and israel as a racist illegitimate state (rather than the idlyllic 'democratic' state they publicly espouse)

whatever fundamentalist islams has going against it, plenty, those things are not myth but fact

free david hicks

free palestine

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I cant believe u only left that megalithic post there for only 7 mins GD!

Just had to get all that off ur chest?

I think I know why u dumped it though.

Free chechenistan

Free Aceh

Free Kashmir

Hell even Free Tibet

Edited by shruman

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Guest Øskorei

Rev, you're really on the money with the statements you make. Mucho Respecto to open minds.

Al Queda & the Taliban have very little to do with each other. Folks, please understand this. The only cross-reference is the allegation that the taliban might have hosted Sammy Bin-Liner when he was first on the run. However this may well be speculation. Fact is that Afghanistan has been moving & grooving with various movements that are resultant from many years of civil unrest... ie civil wars, based more on tribal, territorial impetus. Perhaps Sammy did actually buy himself some protection at the time so he could install himself in a safety zone, but ultimately the two organisations (Al Q & taliban) are worlds apart.

So Rev admits to 'fighting' the west, although (maybe) still being a contrived part of the evil system. To infiltrate from within, if you will. I would think that many of us here are exercising the same life-choices.... so are we terrorists ?

Hell, I know I am.

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lol yeah i was quite proud of it really, but in the end decided that there is no point floggin a dead horse... some people want to stick you in a box and leave you there, and when you move around they get a bit toey...fair enough. But stuffed if, as I said, I'm going to become The War Incarnate, just a sounding board for the things that people would never say face to face to the people they are talking about... or maybe they would. Who knows. Who cares in the end, we are all sittin here safe with the luxury of thinking about this stuff more or less by choice in a lot of ways (some would argue otherwise). also some people would sook at any blatant reminder of what others would make of their activities, but ya get that. I also lose a lot of interest in a situation once people start with the fatherly remarks and assumptions.

no sense in pointless pissing contests though, I'm not a dog, dunno bout you guys... and my dick seems big enough from what I can work out haha... whatever we all believe works for each of us, it seems. Sad that extent to which people will jump so quickly to the personal, but thats not my problem to be honest :D Least we can have a chat about things and none of us decide to put anyone on a "to be executed" list lol. Well, not yet. Assassinations may become more popular.At any rate, it pays to remember why people are saying something, rather than looking overmuch at what they are saying. Works for me.

We all seem to agree though that atrocities are, oddly enough, atrocious. But we have different ideas of "necessity", for various reasons. What are the odds, with thousands of members .... we have differences of opinion from time to time. I don't hate anyone in here, I don't know most of em well enough. That might make me a bit of a weirdo, a far as the net is concerned.

Crime is all relative, most of us around here do or have done things that other people would consider pretty threatening to society. People only get their backs up on the basis of good intentions, or so I like to believe anyway. It's people that are plainly scum that bother all of us I reckon.

a message from the ministry of peace

GD

Edited by greendreams

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Guest Øskorei
the things that people would never say face to face to the people they are talking about...

GD

:worship:Hear Hear ! Keyboard Warriors seem to be rife in the online world. Perhaps it shouldn't even be considered anymore as a bunch of big-mouthed piss&winders elucidating in the uber-verse as compensation for the zip-mouth in the old fashioned world of times gone by. man, we should contemporise on what constitutes manly reality in 2007. Perhaps virtual chest-puffing is the new black.

I am Jack's Raging Erection :blink:

Anyway, WTF has the last few entries had to do with David Hicks ? Oh yea, in that he's a guy who stands up and exercises his beliefs in the real world. Whether we agree or disagree with what's been alleged about him as a turn-coat to the white-boy latent-christian way of sensible, conservative society, he's followed his heart & soul for no gain other than personal enrichment. What's so different between Hicksey and the average aussie soldier who is PAID to be a warzone pawn and squeezes the trigger to kill a person ? The latter example is a hired thug, and nothing more. Hicks is an teddy-bear-angel by comparison

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the average aussie soldier who is PAID to be a warzone pawn and squeezes the trigger to kill a person ? The latter example is a hired thug, and nothing more.

which is why referring to them as "our boys" is such a joke.

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yeah maybe to some.... some of us do see them as that though. if thats ok with you that is. Not real big on disowning or dishonouring family members here., especially those that made every effort to ****edited for security***** rather than running around other peoples back yards... but things change eh... dunno bout how your lil tribe does things though, maybe you just dont talk to anyone in your family that isnt entirely in moral and social alignment with yourself. Feel free to go back with some liquid paper and a pen and change "our" to "my" if it makes you feel a bit better. Just do us perhaps a favour, and make sure that the next time you see some of those hired thugs in uniform in the flesh, make sure you pass that sentiment onto them.Being so passionate and all. I don't think you'd like me to call any of your family thugs, criminals, scum... though I'm sure some of em probably have been somewhere along the line.

maybe wait til a deployment is being recalled, go to the airport and tell everyones kids what you think of their parents? even, or maybe especially, those whos oldies are engineers, medics, logistics specialists... like the police force, the bulk of the armed forces are rarely armed OR particularly forceful. I can get you a list of bereaved relatives of those killed in action (more or less all of em)... you could mail them some kind of "haha serves em right" missive, secure in your moral superiority?

brain, they had stuff all to do with hicks, and lot to do with people being on the lookout for somewhere to vent. Doesn't do any harm really, the odd bit of verbal can work wonders as far as working out what and why you actually think what you think. Good excercise for the brain I suppose.Benefits of living in a part of the world where you can say more or less what you want, no matter how silly someone else thinks it is.

war is bad,

GD

Edited by greendreams

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yeah maybe to some.... some of us do see them as that though. if thats ok with you that is. Not real big on disowning or dishonouring family members here., especially those that made every effort to ****edited for security***** rather than running around other peoples back yards... but things change eh... dunno bout how your lil tribe does things though, maybe you just dont talk to anyone in your family that isnt entirely in moral and social alignment with yourself. Feel free to go back with some liquid paper and a pen and change "our" to "my" if it makes you feel a bit better. Just do us perhaps a favour, and make sure that the next time you see some of those hired thugs in uniform in the flesh, make sure you pass that sentiment onto them.Being so passionate and all. I don't think you'd like me to call any of your family thugs, criminals, scum... though I'm sure some of em probably have been somewhere along the line.

maybe wait til a deployment is being recalled, go to the airport and tell everyones kids what you think of their parents? even, or maybe especially, those whos oldies are engineers, medics, logistics specialists... like the police force, the bulk of the armed forces are rarely armed OR particularly forceful. I can get you a list of bereaved relatives of those killed in action (more or less all of em)... you could mail them some kind of "haha serves em right" missive, secure in your moral superiority?

Jebus! Talk about being put into a box. Disagree with the war = morally superior fuckwit who hates ADF personnel!

How is this any different from the "why do you hate freedom?" ploy?

As for saying these things to their face, well I don't speak what you attribute to me, but I do often argue the same points I am arguing with you directly to the faces of my friends in the Army, Navy and RAAF!

However, there are a group of people to whom I do speak that way, politicians.

You accuse everyone who disagrees with you of making many assumptions and generalising, yet you seem quite content to make these the cornerstone of your arguments...

brain, they had stuff all to do with hicks, and lot to do with people being on the lookout for somewhere to vent.

:rolleyes:

Yeah, I've been waiting around here for weeks now for an appropriate thread to complain about the Iraq war!

Sarcasm aside, maybe the reason some of us bring this up is because we see the problem as only one part of a much more complex and interconnected problem and that the issues that need solving are codependent!

Edited by apothecary

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get over it bud, thats about 99 and a half percent in response to .... "the average aussie soldier who is PAID to be a warzone pawn and squeezes the trigger to kill a person ? The latter example is a hired thug, and nothing more."

not everything is directed at you apothecary, sorry I don't give you more attention.Though given what seems to me your evident objection to be as an individual rather than my opinions, it might not do any good anyway. Sorry I'm not cool.

GD

Edited by greendreams

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Everyone has to take responsibility for their own actions. If a soldier from a voluntary army goes to war then it is his personal responsibility what happens there. The whole concept of responsibility going up the chain of command is ludicrous and is the main tool to suppress the soldier's own ethics. So yes, if your family takes part in an illegal and immoral war then they are war criminals and thugs, and no matter how much you protest this doesn't change. People are often blinded to this fact during the conflict itself, but the guilt stays with them and their families long after. Just look at how many vets regret having gone to vietnam because they were there on false premise?

I realsie that armies would not work very well without this blind loyalty, but maybe that's the whole point. Why put your life on the line for something you don't understand and don't believe in?

I talked to some soldiers recently who went to Iraq and they did not even know the political cuircumstances of that country going back to the first Iraq war, let alone the Iran war, the sectarian divisions or the colonial days. They were kinda stunned when I explained this stuff to them. They outright did not believe me that Bush senior was Saddam's CIA handler. In the US more than 50% of the population believe that Saddam was involved in the Twin Tower massacre. Yeah, it's really easy to get blind loyalty from dumbasses who can be spoon fed whatever they are supposed to believe. Not saying that all of them are, as some are moderately well informed, but the majority certainly follow the channel 10 news mantra.

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Guest Øskorei

Yea, oops there GD, apologies for speaking my mind in making a comparison to Kicks & soldiers. I'll be sure to check in with you prior to ensure the discussed comments align to YOUR ideals. Me bad.

Fact is, Hicks could be considered a 'soldier'. And a hell of a lot cheaper to maintain than an publicly-funded Australian one. Who the fuck is this government to promote and fund murder-crews on only one side of equation (ie team players in the Axis of Hypocrisy all-stars), yet agree wholeheartedly with punishing a CITIZEN that chose to bat for the other team, because his heart, not his employer, told him to?

This war isn't like past stouches in the history books where men were forced into battle whether they wanted to or not. Today's soldier CHOOSES his/her career - are we to argue that there's not a precursor to such a job in that killing for your governments power-games won't be on the cards ? Dude, its the 'Defence' forces, of course it's a possibility. If you have a personal/family buy- in to being sympathetic to a defence force, jolly well & good, but the rest of us don't really need to give a fuck about your cousin Bill's career as an infantry grunt now do we ?

Is Hicks guilty, perhaps we'll never know the truth. Has be broken any Australian laws ? No. The guy should be sitting in a pub right now enjoying a plate of bangers, peas & mash, sipping on a beer and chuckling away as he glances yet again at the slip of paper in his top pocket that shows his bank balance of several million dollars that the US & Australian government gave him in compensation for the victimisation and years of incarceration without formal charges.

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Wow, yeah I heard that other day that theres this thing called the bonesmen and ... so on. How do we think the world gets run? If you think that you need a degree in dopology before you are even slightly aware of the players behind the scenes, or that because someone you had a chat to once didnt have much of a clue, you might need to get out more. Seen the "why the west are bastards?" section at bookworld of late, gettin bigger all the time... none of this stuff is news.

Thugs are people who enjoy hurting and killing people. The soldiers I am thinking of do not enjoy hurting or killing people (to the extent of one of em ending up in hospital due to the regular abuses from his wife, not very psychopathic of him i hafta say). There are thugs in our armed forces. There are thugs everywhere. They take as much time to think about hurting a person as some would about hurting a grasshopper.To say that because the bloke next to me is a thug, thats somehow MY fault when I am conducting myself in as fair a way as possible.... bit silly. I don't think you took time to call those returned servicemen n women thugs n criminals, I'm sure it was quickly associated with "oh but yknow the individual soldier isnt necessarily....". As for criminals... I don't think too many people on this forum, especially those that run it, should be complaining too loudly about crime, as we are occasionally criminals too.Some of us constantly.Dealing in things and concepts that have a tremendous capacity for harm, when applied incorrectly or out of context. Of course, we know that the laws we do follow are fair and those we dont are unfair... but that all starts to get a bit here n there really.Who is to be given the right to decide which laws are and are not worth following? We are just about ALL a threat, to SOMEONES ideals. Yes, a lot of terrible stuff happens in the name of "just following orders", always has and sadly always will. But there are also plenty of situations where following the rule to the letter has left us open to quite a bit of threat (ROE etc), which we shouldered, rather than just going in all guns blazing all the time. FYI, many aussie service people dont like how the US troops go about things either... that has a lot to do with average education level, funding, training, psych screening, all that. You can't just lump em all together. Or if we are gunna start with the lumping, take a long hard look at what you have actually purchased or sent money to, and exactly which megacorps ended up with it in their pocket. Oh, but thats unavoidable sometimes isnt it... those pesky dogs.

Skor, you can compare hicks to a soldier all you like. I took exception to the inference that all western armed forces personnel are thugs. They are not. Bit silly. As for me apparently wholeheartedly agreeing with hicks' treatment, if you took time to read what i actually posted (tho i credit that will take fair bit of your day up haha) you wouldve found, in my first post...

"Dave was a nobody wanting to be a somebody, but if he wanted to kill or maim westerners, he doesnt need to go to afghanistan to do it... he'd get onto any one of a number of great sites run by nice white western kids, detailing how to nuke a bus with napisan and the right weight of fencing staples to use, then hed go out and blow some locals to bloodied shreds. If being in a warzone, armed, but not with "legit" forces makes you a terrorist, check out the 1/3 of western personnel in those parts of the world that are not there with armies, but with private companies, hired killers, often discharged from legit service for discipline and legal reasons, emotional disorders, or just not enough action. (PMF blackwell etc). The fact that davie met binladen a few times means fuck all... I've met a few interesting people, doesn't mean I agree with or support them in anything much. I have pics of people meeting john howard that I know for a FACT think hes a completely evil fuckstick.. lets hope in times to come, those pics are not found by bad guys and used as motivation to lock up some humble aussies that happened to shake hands with someone once or twice."

yep, sounds like im just about ready to go to SA, rape n kill someone, JUST to get to him inside and make a mess of him with a broomhandle.Filthy dog! Just so much worse than anyone else that wants to run around with a gun for a giggle.

if you think my cousin bill doesnt matter overly much, and is just fit to be written off as bloodthirsty scum, just dont go getting too upset next time someone writes plantlovers off as vapid, out of touch drug addict scum. Users as abusers, growers as evil producers hell bent on corruptinng youth.Because both are true some of the time, doesnt make it true all of the time. Only complete fools think like that, and I haven't noticed any around here (even Tepa had his reasons...)I have never denied that our side does some horrific things, for some horrific reasons. My entire case was more or less that there are some good people there, trying to stay that way DESPITE that fact that others around them are, at times, acting in a clearly out of line manner. getting into the debate of suppressing human morality , bla bla, all that has been well discussed n documented elsewhere, getting into that will just make this thread run to another 3 pages. It is a bit of a worry that in 1945 we had a 1 in 5 shooting rate (the other 4 being too scared, worried, guilty or basically decent to be able to fire off a shot) now we have that up to 4 in 5... which they say has a lot do with the media we are raised on and the games a LOT of new recruits have spent years playing... theyve been trianing themselves and the armies couldnt be happier. Also quite sad.

At any rate, I give some sense of honour to ANYONES cousin bill, or ahmed, or whoever, if only for their iwllingness to act in defence of a nation that only is in a position to piss in the wind about their activites due the past actions of their compatriots. Of course, once he starts deliberately targeting civilians, chopping up innocents or whatever, my level of respect starts to plummet. As for stouches of the past, noone had to go anywhere, if they cared that much for their morals, they couldve taken the lockup, or the bullet. Couldnt they? Rather than go murdering and pillaging across europe/africa/asia/the middle east.

Most people regret going to vietnam. they regret much more being made scapegoats of the govt of the day, at the hands of people without any balls to do anything much other than whinge and detract.

last I have to say in the thread, goin nowhere n fast. I am not the war. You are not the antichrist. We all do things that other people wish didn't go on.Must we all agree? Or be punished if we don't? ;) Why is a total obedience to law necessary in the case of a state but not the individual? Cmon T, isnt the fault state the fault of the individual, that ol chain of command in reverse you mentioned? Sounds like we're just about all war criminals, one way or another. In someones little War.

nuff said, off to look for fungus (out of character, I know... ).

GD... the gratefully distant.

Edited by greendreams

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"My entire case was more or less that there are some good people there, trying to stay that way DESPITE that fact that others around them are, at times, acting in a clearly out of line manner."

"To say that because the bloke next to me is a thug, thats somehow MY fault when I am conducting myself in as fair a way as possible"

The same can be said about both sides & I would go so far as to say David was doing the same.

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