NHS heroin 'will protect women'

[shruman]

"most of these go away when a person has clean heroin and syringes.

all infectioins are due to dirty stuff "

I dont think that all infections are cause of "dirty stuff" u can have clean stuff & a dirty needle & this can cause an infection, u can have clean needle & clean stuff but dont sterilize the injection site & u can get an infection clean stuff clean needle sterilized injection site but dirty spoon the list goes on.

"suicide depends on environment"

How so?

"OD depends on not knowing what you are shooting up."

Like I stated above I think this is true to an extent but a dose thats tolerated 2day has the potential to kill 2morrow with opiates.

[oxydiser]

"Methadone is synthetic heroin substitute and is the tried and trusted route for heroin addicts trying to kick the habit."

I think for them to live there lives in the least disruptive way or for that matter have any real life at all addiction has to b dealt with

It's not that easy. As Anodyne alluded to, methadone/buprenorphine programs are aimed at removing the patient from the drug taking culture (environment, people, crime etc). From a cost/benefit point of view, it makes a lot of sense for the government to subsidise a bit a methadone and related health/counselling services... the decreased crime rate and health costs combined with increased tax dollars from the jobs obtained by these patients means that the program in Australia pays for itself to the tune of several billion dollars.

"If they know exactly how strong each dose is, they're much less likely to OD & traumatise the housemates."

Yes their probly less likely but a dose thats tolerated 2day has the potential to kill 2morrow with opiates.

A loss of opiate tolerance only occurs after an extended period of abstinence, this sort of thing just wouldn't happen with a standardised dose. If it did we would have methadone patients ODing all the time.

...I was talking bout mental but respiratory is a good point too & they will still drool in the Xmas cake wether they can get opiates legaly & maintaining a relationship with an addict is difficult regardless wether their stealing from u or not

...Other I dont see how a heroin addict can maintain a job espescialy if their drooling on their desk.

...I realy dont think addicts have much of a life their life revolves around their addiction. I dont think its safe to take any drug regularly (in recreational doses, at any rate).

Your tone reminds me of my attitudes towards opioid replacement programs when I first heard of them, before I had worked in a pharmacy or ever met and talked with a patient.

You wouldn't even know if your collegue or next-door neighbour was on the program. These are completely normal people who look just like you or I, would have jobs and relationships and feelings and dreams and good days and shit days just like everyone else. For what ever reason they started on the program, all patients are moving on with their lives.

I am the first to admit the program is not perfect, but is the best one we have and it's safety and efficacy compared with other programs have been proven around the world for decades.

Edited May 5, 2007 by oxydiser

[Anodyne]

shruman - yeah, what they said ^^^^

I dont think that all infections are cause of "dirty stuff" u can have clean stuff & a dirty needle & this can cause an infection, u can have clean needle & clean stuff but dont sterilize the injection site & u can get an infection clean stuff clean needle sterilized injection site but dirty spoon the list goes on.

The advantage of this program is that they have clean needles AND clean gear, in ampoules, so there are no spoons ( ). Also, I don't know any patients on this program, but generally when someone is prescribed an injectable substance, they are given instructions by the prescribing doctor about safe injecting, and have to demonstrate to show that they are competent. The "other long term side effects of opiate abuse" you listed are NOT effects of using opiates, and patients who stick to maintenance programs shouldn't suffer from any of them.

I agree Blue lotus or apomorphine should also b an option.

Naltrexone is a wonder drug that should also get more attention but with any of these methods I think pschological counseling is the real key.

Is Blue Lotus illegal? I've never been able to find out why apomorphine isn't used - probably it doesn't work as well as Burroughs believed it did. But naltrexone? Miniscule amounts are certainly good for reducing tolerance (ref), which in turn makes withdrawals easier, but if you're talking about the "induced withdrawal" method, everyone I've spoken to says its horrendous.

Yes their probly less likely but a dose thats tolerated 2day has the potential to kill 2morrow with opiates.

A loss of opiate tolerance only occurs after an extended period of abstinence, this sort of thing just wouldn't happen with a standardised dose. If it did we would have methadone patients ODing all the time.

 

Bupe is even safer due to the ceiling effect - it's almost impossible to OD on unless the person also uses other depressants. And maintenance doses can be quite low - just enough to prevent WDs, but not enough to get high on. You seem to have this idea that all opiate users are taking dangerously large recreational doses & nodding off all the time - this just isn't true. Of course some people on these programs prefer doses that get them high (esp. on the heroin program, I imagine), but many just take enough to maintain a normal state (i.e. to prevent WDs), and others have their dose reduced a little each week. It seems like your main problem with these maintenance programs is that the addiction remains - but I think in the case of opiates because there are so few side-effects, as long as a safe steady supply is assured, addiction isn't a huge problem.

Conan:

BUT I thought the idea of maintenance programs is to provide the addict with a regular standardized dose, no needles ect.?? so they dont have to prostitute themselves, steal handbags or whatever to get there fix.

Normally they try to eliminate needles, true - but this program is for people who haven't been able to stay on those others. But I don't see what one has to do with the other - if the needles/heroin are supplied, as in this program, why would they need to steal or prostitute themselves?

JoP:

Now it kinda sounds like your belittling the Ice problem, Iv seen people go crazy on a one way ticket on that stuff, it might not be as physical in its withdrawals but it can totally fuck ur mind. Personally i would rather 3 weeks of physical hell then a lifetime of mental "collapse".

What? You were the one saying they should have ice maintenance programs! I think amphetamines are horrible dangerous drugs and was trying to point out that maintenance programs for ice would be unnecessary & harmful, as there are no serious WDs for this drug, & it can be stopped with support & counselling alone - this is what should be focussed on.

[Jesus On Peyote]

What? You were the one saying they should have ice maintenance programs! I think amphetamines are horrible dangerous drugs and was trying to point out that maintenance programs for ice would be unnecessary & harmful, as there are no serious WDs for this drug, & it can be stopped with support & counselling alone - this is what should be focussed on.

Yea i agree. What i said was ittle help with crime and violence. like most H schemes they give patients an alternative to the drug, i wouldent recommend handing out actual Ice, but rather a medical alternative like what nab mentioned.

What i meant about the ice thing is stuff like as there are no serious WDs for this drug which i dont agree with, maybe not as serious physically as opiates but still pretty bad.

I think we both agree that rehabilitation and councleing is the key rather then ongoing on "medication" for both H and ice.