Ariocarpus and Aztekium from seed

[Ace]

Hey guys and girls (or lack thereof )

I plan on purchasing a few ario and aztek cacti seeds shortly, but I'm aware they can be very difficult from seed. From what I've read, they tend to have poor germination rates and they are very slow growing until they reach maturity and are very difficult to graft.

Has anyone been successful in germinating these species from seed? Do they have the same parameters as lophs? If not, could anyone provide a little information on the care of these little guys from seed to maturity?

Any help would be greatly appreciated,

Ace

[Ace]

In an attempt to answer my own question, I am going to collate any info I am able to find, in the hope that I'm not the only one to try my hand at these species

Regarding Ariocarpus

From Living Rocks of Mexico:

Raising Ariocarpus from seed is really very easy and not as slow as some might imagine. Given that all the species of Ariocarpus are included in the CITES list, seed raising is the only way forward. There is no need to fiddle with seed raising either: use your standard seed compost, temperature and watering regime, and your seedlings will soon develop into targets for sciarid flies, damping-off disease and all the little joys you have doubtless experienced.

My own seed compost consists of roughly equal parts (by volume) of moss peat and sharp sand. Each species is given a 2½" inch pot and the propagator is kept at around 25°C. Freshly collected seed from my own plants germinates quickly, most seedlings having appeared within ten days. Although sun-worshippers when adult, care must be taken to keep the little plants well shaded during the first few years. Don't be in any hurry to prick out the seedlings. I would keep them undisturbed for two years and then transplant them five to a four-inch pot. The year prior to transplanting, they will of course need an occasional weak feed using your normal liquid feed.

Small seedlings produce juvenile tubercles, quite untypical of mature plants, although these give way to the adult tubercles after a few years, depending on the rate of growth. Then is the time to introduce the seedlings to a little more light, but be careful! Two years after their transplanting, the seedlings should be ready for a 2½ inch pot and a more open compost. I use my standard cactus compost, comprising two parts of coarse grit (1-3 mm) to one part of moss peat with some Gamma HCH dust end Chempak potting base added. Supplementary feeding with Chempak Formula 8 (12.5:25:25) completes the picture. The plants are watered with the rest of the collection—I make no exceptions.

Also from Living Rocks of Mexico:

Myths and Truths

The genus Ariocarpus has been the subject of much affection and attention by growers and botanists, but also has been surrounded by many myths that persist to date which I would like to challenge from the very beginning.

1. Contrary to popular belief ariocarpi do not present any special problems in cultivation. Granted, these plants require a little more attention (or rather neglect) than your average cactus but there are many others far more difficult to grow. An Ariocarpus, if cared for properly, will grow steadily and flower reliably.

2. Cultural advice like "grow in full sun" and "give at least two hefty waterings in the growing season" (Needham, 1983) may very well explain the descriptive term "living fossils" often applied to Ariocarpus plants. In my Mediterranean climate ariocarpi certainly appreciate some shading and require as much water as all other cacti, especially if grown in clay pots.

3. "Ariocarpi are the slowest growing cacti". Well, they are particularly slow in childhood, but a 10 cm (4 inch) A. retusus can be grown in about five years, which beats many other cacti. If you want to experience "slow" try some Aztekium from seed.

4. "The minimum time to grow from seed to flowering size is probably ten years, and may well be twice that" (Weightman, 1991). Actually, A. agavoides will eagerly flower at three years from seed (Fig. 2) and most species will flower by the age of five or six years..

5. "Ariocarpus seedlings are exceptionally prone to rot." In my experience this is not true, in fact, I have come to realize that Ariocarpus seedlings benefit, more so than other cacti seedlings, from a humid closed environment during their first year of growth. This was actually the cornerstone in developing a reliable method for raising Ariocarpus from seed.

Ariocarpus de Novo

Why grow Ariocarpus from seed? Personally I do not need persuasion on the matter - I grow everything from seed - but if motivation or justification is needed, here it is: Ariocarpus plants are not readily offered and when available they are usually small seedlings at high prices. Plants with locality data are rare but documented seed is plentiful. Furthermore there is a tremendous spectrum of varieties and forms in Ariocarpus that can be raised from seed, one look at the Ariocarpus Handbook (Sato and Suguri, 1996) should suffice to convince anybody. Advocating hybridization is sometimes frowned upon in our community, but how could one resist "creating" an Ariocarpus since all taxa within the genus can readily hybridize with each other (Neudecker, 1985). I suppose that I should include here the wild population protection argument, but I am not sure whether it is relevant any longer, I have not seen many field-collected Ariocarpus for sale recently.

The soil mix that I use for sowing Ariocarpus is my standard germination mix for cactus seed: two parts peat-based commercial potting-soil, one part loam, one part leaf mold, one part marble grit or coarse sand and one part perlite. The mix is moistened and baked for two hours. For sowing up to 20 seeds I use 5.5 cm diameter by 5 cm deep pots, for larger quantities I use either multiple small pots or larger containers 12 x 8 x 5 cm for up to 200 seeds. The seeds are dispersed on a thin layer of sowing mix mixed with grit (1:1) and should be covered to a depth that equals their diameter. After sowing the seed the pots are soaked in a bath of distilled or boiled water with fungicide (chinosol) and covered with thin plastic.

I prefer to cover the entire tray with a single sheet of transparent plastic which facilitates my weekly inspections. I am operating however with a certain degree of confidence that comes from experience, with so many seedlings under one roof a fungus attack could be disastrous. If you are just starting out it might be wiser to house pots individually in small baggies to contain possible infections from spreading.

The trays are placed under growing lights set at a 12 hour cycle. I use incandescent lights (Osram HWL-R Deluxe 160 W) which emit plenty of heat making additional heating unnecessary. If fluorescent lights are used the germination area should be kept around 25 degrees C. Allowing the trays to cool off at night (to a temperature below 18 degrees C.) is a good idea as the oscillation between day-highs and night-lows seems to stimulate germination. For these purposes it is preferable to have a separate area for germination that should be kept meticulously clean. I have an ideal situation, a small room (6 sq. metres) with a window which I use to further control the temperature - I keep it wide open in mid-winter when I sow Copiapoa and Eriosyce seed.

The first signs of germination will appear after a week but the great majority of seed will sprout between day 10 and day 20. By the end of the fourth week germination is about 90% complete (a few occasional seedlings will pop up for up to a year later). Germination rates usually range from 40 to 60 per cent for purchased seed, but are often higher for seed that I produce on my own plants. At this point the young seedlings can be mulched with a layer of fine grit (also sterilized by boiling) and should be given a light misting with sterilized water/chinosol with traces of fertilizer, which I do during inspection every 7-10 days. To compensate for the additional moisture introduced with the misting, I remove, by shaking away, the condensation that gathers on the plastic cover. This is a useful means for slowly reducing humidity after germination is complete - just take away more than you give.

Close examination at regular intervals is necessary for the first three months. During this time the seedlings are eager to grow and they will produce 2-3 tubercles (Fig. 3). If rot appears, either as fungus growing on the soil surface or worse with seedlings turning to mush (and this is not an unlikely scenario), the afflicted pot should be removed from the community, sprayed with fungicide, left out a few hours to dry, and then placed in an individual baggie and watched closely. Preventively, neighboring pots or better the entire flat should also be sprayed with fungicide and kept somewhat drier

If rot persists, the baggie method will have to be abandoned and the seedlings should be grown uncovered. This will test your tight-rope walking skills as seedlings have to be kept at the unattainable "evenly moist, but not wet" state to achieve optimal growth. I simply cannot manage this, perhaps it is my dry Athenian climate or my hectic lifestyle, invariably at some point I will err on the dry side, seedlings become thinner and darker and their growth is severely retarded, at least by comparison to the growth rates of their bagged cousins. Faster growing species may overcome this setback but young ariocarpi can be trapped in this nerve-wracking state for a long period of time. By contrast, covered Ariocarpus seedlings will remain plump and green and will progress slowly but steadily.

However, if sterile techniques are carefully observed, contamination problems, if any, are kept to a minimum and by the end of the third month you are essentially home-free: The pots should be hermetically closed in plastic either en masse or individually, and can be completely forgotten for months! No matter how tightly the bags are sealed, water molecules will slowly find their way out conveniently decreasing the humidity of the environment which may eventually require additional spraying. The young ariocarpi should be kept in this closed environment for 12 to 18 months, but not necessarily under lights, depending on space availability, the seedlings can be transferred to the greenhouse away from direct sunlight. It is best if they are uncovered during the winter months for a gradual adjustment to a drier environment. With the coming of spring some of the plants will be ready for their first transplanting and some will have to wait for up to a year more.

I transplant the seedlings into deeper community pots where they have plenty of room for their long taproot, using a more or less classic soil mix: one part soil, one part leaf mold and one part coarse material (fine marble chippings and pumice) with a bit of crushed lime added in. At this point there might be a small lapse of growth until the seedlings become established in their new environment, but after growth commences it is rapid. One can hardly keep up with potting-up especially the larger growing species like A. retusus and A. trigonus. A. fissuratus and v. lloydii are somewhat slower, while A. agavoides and A. kotschoubeyanus and its varieties stay small and may remain in the community pots until underground activity (Fig. 4) becomes obvious. Greater patience is required for the slowest taxa A. bravoanus, A. hintonii and A. scapharostrus

The germination method that I use for Ariocarpus will work well for all cacti, especially for slow growing genera such as Aztekium, Blossfeldia, Obregonia, Pelecyphora and Strombocactus, with a few minor modifications will do even for Conophytum!

I will continue to look for useful tips - this will certainly be a great start. Has anyone had any success with SAB's ario seed? If so I might order a couple from there, if not I might have to look elsewhere

[Auxin]

d'ja read the thread I posted recently about hypocotyl grafting?

Seems folks have got Ariocarpus to make successful hypocotyl grafts onto Opuntia spp.

Wont speed it up as much as grafting onto peres or trich but no one will know it was grafted unless you tell them

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/inde...&hl=opuntia

...the cacti seedlings I started in that thread are almost big enough to graft but the O. ficus-indica havent sprouted yet Tomorrow I better plant more for the sake of caution

[Hagakure]

good thread ace. i tried some Ariocarpus and Aztekium seeds recently along with lophs.

had success with the lophs using my standard technique but no success with the others.

Edited April 18, 2007 by Hagakure

[nothinghead]

i have sown both these seeds using the exact same tech as with lophs. the ario's had a good germination rate and grew in the same humid atmosphere as lophs do. however i had no luck with the aztekium at all, none out of 10 germinated.

[Ace]

Thanks for your link Auxin - I believe I had a bit of a peruse a while back, but didnt look too much into it at the time (I believe I had the fungi bug - now I'm back to the cacti bug ). Just looking at the link you posted for Cactus Art Biz - there are a lot of strombocactus disciformis - is this species highly sort after? I have a big one in my back yard pupping like a champ, and I hadnt realised it was a harder one to graft - I picked it up from bunnings a while back

What would a disciformis be worth to a collecter? Is it sought after?

Re Cough - good to hear about the arios - perhaps the aztekiums were just old seed?

Also, I noticed that the above link isnt just talking about opuntia grafting, its actually seedling to seedling grafting (hypocotyl) - I really should have read that earlier! What a fascinating concept!

[Jack]

Thanks for your link Auxin - I believe I had a bit of a peruse a while back, but didnt look too much into it at the time (I believe I had the fungi bug - now I'm back to the cacti bug ). Just looking at the link you posted for Cactus Art Biz - there are a lot of strombocactus disciformis - is this species highly sort after? I have a big one in my back yard pupping like a champ, and I hadnt realised it was a harder one to graft - I picked it up from bunnings a while back

What would a disciformis be worth to a collecter? Is it sought after?

Re Cough - good to hear about the arios - perhaps the aztekiums were just old seed?

Also, I noticed that the above link isnt just talking about opuntia grafting, its actually seedling to seedling grafting (hypocotyl) - I really should have read that earlier! What a fascinating concept!

Strombocactus disciformis is one the slowest and most difficult from seed, after 3 years it is still only the size of a pin head.

I doubt what you have is Strombocactus disciformis if you picked it up from bunnings. I have 2 small plants that are many years old.

Very sought after collectors plant.

[Ace]

I am not 100% sure about the ID, but I can assure you, it looks a hell of a lot like this:

Strombocactus disciformis

I will take a pic tonite if I get time and I'll show you all and I might be able to get an ID. It is a bit unusual though - it is pupping out of the lower half - there'd be about 3 or 4 decent sized pups on it - any ideas if there are look-alikes? I will have to do a big picture trawl - any hints would be much appreciated!

Edit - must add, I've never seen it flower... But its spines are hell sharp at the tips and they are almost white with very dark brown tipped spines. But it seriously looks very similar - colour/shape/size as the one in this pic above. Got me hell keen to have a look at it now!!

Edited April 18, 2007 by Ace

[Rev]

Aztekium come up fine and seem fairly hardy but by hell they are slow

a 1 year old seedling is pinhead size

i put down 100 seeds and have 6 or 7 pinheads

HTF can you graft that???

the cost of seed,CITES certification, poor germinataion in many cases

and sensitivity to sun

have kept me back

ive sorted the sun issue now

but the other issues remain

IME you really need to put down 100 seeds to hope to get a few plants

by the time they are 5 years old

Edited April 18, 2007 by Rev

[Ace]

IME you really need to put down 100 seeds to hope to get a few plants

by the time they are 5 years old

Damn, sounds like a lot of effort for little reward Though, no doubt the plants that survive would become hairlooms! But, then again, I dont think my kids will be that interested in inheriting an old cactus

HTF can you graft that???

What do you mean by that Rev?

Edited April 18, 2007 by Ace

[Rev]

im sure the reward is better from seed u make yourself

and 5% isnt too bad anyway with some cacti, its just the cost of that 95% lost is annoying with Arios

prices vary but say here

say from one website i have imported from

ariocarpus agavioides

100s = 4.2 pounds

500s = 17 pounds

plus any CITES permits

AQIS have really come down hard on CITES requiremnets lately

HTF?

its a pinhead

id need pindick fingers to be able to manipulate it

ive read they arent hard - its just TIIIIIIIIIIIIIIME waiting

and theres the expensive seed issue again

if you peres graft you get free fresh seed quickly

dunno. guess im just never happy growing just one, or just a few of anything

it feels a waste of effort

like cooking for 1

its hardly any more effort to cook for 3 or 4 and much more rewarding

cos of the wait, the chance of complete loss, the lack of excess to trade and the bottleneck genepool of a few inbreeding stock planst thereafter

im not really happy till i look out and see multiple trays of 50 healthy planst all flowering away happily in the garden

Edited April 18, 2007 by Rev

[ENtiTY]

HTF - How The Fuck

Edited April 18, 2007 by Harry

[Ace]

Cheers Harry - I should have made that connection

[Jack]

Aztekium hintonii

Edited April 18, 2007 by Jack

[prier]

I remember hearing somewhere that in the wild Aztekium live in a symbiotic relationship with another plant (or maybe fungus?). When growing them here they need to be grafted or after a few years they simply just die.

[kadakuda]

http://www.sphosting.com/cactus/grafting_stock.html

http://www.sphosting.com/cactus/cactusnews002.html ***

http://batman.isteam.idv.tw/skill/graftskill.htm

http://batman.isteam.idv.tw/skill/graftbasic.htm <----great cross section pics, off topic

http://shaboten.com/ariohb.html

Edited April 21, 2007 by kadakuda

[Teotzlcoatl]

Good thread!

I'm germanitating some Aztekium and Strombocactus as we speak, a few already spourted!

I remember hearing somewhere that in the wild Aztekium live in a symbiotic relationship with another plant (or maybe fungus?). When growing them here they need to be grafted or after a few years they simply just die.

Is this true?!

[kadakuda]

in the wild, i have no idea....but they dont just die after a couple years....i think graft aztekium is fairly easy as long as fresh growth and larger scions (1cm) are used it should be foolproof. but growing from seed is an art in itself! reaaaaaaaaaly slow. i mean like a snail that was shot, stomped and frozen may move faster....

[Teotzlcoatl]

LOL.

...it is possible to grow Aztekium to flowering size on it's own roots tho, correct?

Any idea how long it would take? 25 years or more?

Edited June 26, 2008 by Teotz'

[Ace]

...it is possible to grow Aztekium to flowering size on it's own roots tho, correct?

Any idea how long it would take? 25 years or more?

I think in cultivation it is verging on impossible, or so I have read online. Many have tried and failed after several years of patience and hope. I think the only way to really enjoy this plant is via grafting. At least that is the only way that I've read that has any luck. Very, very fiddly genus.

[kadakuda]

i haven't but i see many seed grown plants around here that are 5-10cm, which must be more than a few years old