ROOT BEER, prelim to finish

[coin]

[Monk]

Ah, hell, coin. I wish I'd have known that about the temps before. I started it in the 65 deg F range for one day, then ramped up to 75-80 degrees for the next 4 days. Was this wrong? Out of instinct, yesterday morning I took off the "brew belt" warming thing to let it cool down toward the end. I hope I didn't fuck it up! Also, I'm still using a blow off tube here at day 7 as I'm getting about 4 bubbles every 2 seconds from the tube and if I agitate the fermenter at all, a little foam moves up the tube. Again, I thing it's a combination of crazy vigorous yeast and foamy saponins. It's slowing, but not to a point where I think I should rack yet. What to do...What to do...

[coin]

75+ sounds high...though some strains can be taken to 85 max, but that's usually ale yeasts intended for high gravity...you feed them sugars incrementally so as not to shock them with such high gravity when first pitching...then towards the end you take the temp up to help them out when they start slowing down/getting stressed. if you look at the whitelabs website, they recommend temps of 66-72F for the yeast you're using, and 60-75F is a good general range for mead... but everyone has their own way of doing things..people are always experimenting with different yeasts & temps that might seem unusual. you might end up with some pretty heady compounds, but then they may settle down once aged for a while. i think most people would recommend aging mead for at least 6 months.

just let the yeast stick to its own schedule..it's obviously not done yet...will probably be finished within a few more days..but i have heard of mead fermentations going on for a couple of months. the whitelabs site also mentioned your abbey yeast has medium-high flocculation, so that's another hint as to when the primary fermentation is finishing up (will start to clear). once you rack it to a secondary, it could still take another couple of months for it to clarify properly.

someone here with more experience than me can probably guide you better

[Monk]

you might end up with some pretty heady compounds... That's the whole goal But seriously, I hope it goes ok. It does smell great, and I will be sure to update on the taste etc. at racking to secondary. Thanks again for all advice.

[coin]

So is it still fermenting?

[Monk]

Hey coin, glad to see there is still some interest It finally slowed down enough this past friday to put a regular airlock on instead of the blowoff tube. Now its slowed down to about 1 bub per 10 seconds. I may rack tonight if I get the time. I'm excited and hesitant as I racked the pineapple small mead last week and it was dry and characterless Maybe aging will help. Or I may sorbate/sulfite and backsweeten. Not sure, but I was let down. I'm trying to have faith for this one though. At the very least, it will have some character from all those herbs.

[coin]

i think it can be a lot better to add the fruit at secondary...

waiting until less than a bubble every 30-45 seconds or so might give it a bit more time...

if you're going for sweeter meads you might need to use a less attenuative yeast, and focus on calculating your OG & desired FG....u have a hydrometer?

but your plan sounds good

definitely interested to hear your updates :D

Edited May 8, 2007 by coin

[Bongchitis]

Definitely still some interest FM.

I don't have a great deal of practical skills yet to ask relevant Q's though so keenly following updates as meads are my goal in the not too distant future.... but here are some noob Q's for you.

When you speak of the character of your Pineapple mead, do you mean complexity of flavours? I would imagine that it would be quite sweet and fruity but is your issue that it does not show flavour elements beyond the above?

Have you (or coin) brewed beer and used other ethno's instead of hops to flavour and bitter the beer? Alot of the ethnos I have tasted are really bitter but have interesting flavour profiles behind that bitterness. Do you recommend any from a purely flavour standpoint?

Keep the updates coming, I'm sure there are a few others following the progress.

Cheers and thanks.............Bongchitis

[Monk]

Hey, coin. Yeah, I put the pineapple in the secondary, but the fermentation restarted and ate up all the sugar as the yeast could handle it It's dry as a bone but with the acidity of pineapple and none of the flavor At least the glycyrrhizin from the licorice will sweeten the root beer, hopefully. I'll let you know as soon as I rack how it tastes. I'm afraid for my scelly-saffron brew right now as it had the same quantity of honey and yeast type as the "pineapple melomel." Most likely, it will need backsweetened to make it not taste like salty-saffron-diluted-chardonay That's some pricey shit too I'll work hard to fix it-backsweeten/age/oak-whatever it takes I guess, but one step at a time with patience.

[kaktus133]

hey guys.....nice brewing stories........a quick question mostly about methanol.....there was a comment that beer can contain methanol.....and ive heard that red wine can contain methanol as well.......its just that ive started distilling and the thing im trying to avoid of course is methanol......how much and how often is methanol found in commercial alcohols??

cheers guys...

T.

[coin]

bongchitis - i haven't tried different herbs/ethnos....i'm interested in spices in mead but not much interest in adding "extra magic"

the saffron sounds interesting...but really i think i would just rather infuse some fresh high grade saffron in a nice aged mead.

hey kaktus

there's more methanol from fruit fermentation than grain...

methanol comes off first when you're distilling and this can be discarded.

for a 20L mash you can discard approximately the first 50ml from a reflux still or 100-200ml from a pot still

it's really not much of a worry

see http://homedistiller.org/methanol.htm for more details

Edited May 9, 2007 by coin

[Monk]

Hey everybody. Bongchitis, I have not tried other ethnos in brewing, but have been pondering it as well. I think P. som would bitter up a beer nicely. Or maybe some kratom 15:1 with Nymphae caerulea--niize, I like Of course, one could always go old school with Henbane Pilsner. I just don't fancy anticholinergics that much. I need my memory too much for my day job. The truth is, I'm very new to brewing as well, but well read. Experience, however, is the best teacher and I'm listening carefully. Yes, about the pineapple melomel.

Oh yeah, I'm sampling the root metheglyn as we speak!

The flavor is great for not being aged or even done fermenting! It does not, however, taste anything like root beer It tastes....belgian. Like some weird ass beer from belgium that somebody put sarsparilla, vanilla and juniper berries into. Now who would do such a thing? It's quite potent. The first flavor is soft-vanilla-banana-sarsparilla quickly shooting to bittery-juniper-woodsy-alcohol fading to sassafras sort of. That's the best I can describe it. I recommend making it. I can't wait to try it over time while finishing/aging. It's still sweetish and I hope that stays. I'm not sure about extra psychoactivity, but I'm feeling 8 oz. of the stuff pretty well. One pint will be attempted in the next couple of days strictly for pseudo-scientific purposes, of course.

[coin]

While I said earlier I'm not that interested in brewing with ethnos, I meant psychoactive stuff....I'm very interested in making medicinal wines, but the doses are very low and only a few are really designed for flavor. If I'm going to make beer or mead, etc. I want it for flavor though

Of course it tastes Belgian FM having used that funky ale yeast Maybe a really clean American yeast would give you that root beer flavor...??

Unless you stop the fermentation like you mentioned above though, it will get drier..hard to say how much (You didn't mention if you took gravity readings)

Which of the herbs do you think have worked the best? And would you alter the quantities/balance of herbs?

How much pineapple did you use for the melomel? (sorry if you mentioned that already)

You plan to carbonate any?

Nice work though...good to hear it's coming up well .... it's not common to hear of new brewers getting so creative

Edited May 9, 2007 by coin

[Monk]

Coin, I guess getting creative is just in my nature. Besides, I can buy good beer at the store, but I can't buy these special brews anywhere. Yes, I plan to bottle condition for carbonation, so I won't be able to stop fermentation right now. I have my fingers crossed, though, for the outcome-dry or not. It needs more testing/aging to determine what herb balance needs altered, but off the bat I would say fresh sassafras root(more flavor,) more vanilla, less juniper berries. Malt wouldn't hurt either. And don't get me wrong, I somehow knew it wouldn't taste like root beer regardless of the yeast. I love belgians, however, and the combo is tasty and very complex.

Coin, I've got a shite load of clean fresh-frozen ashwaganda roots and leaves. That may make a good medicinal wine and I have no specific plans for it yet. Any recipe or flavor combo ideas?

[coin]

(Belgian ales are my favourite )

The traditional fermented preparations of Ayurvedic medicine are known as arishtas & asavas. The alcohol comes out at 1-2%, possibly a bit higher in some cases. The yeast comes from the inclusion of dhataki flowers (Woodfordia fruticosa), which naturally carry Saccharomyces cerevisiae (they also contribute medicinal properties). The sugar used is most frequently jaggery (solid minimally processed sugar cane extract - usually just boiled dry) - sometimes sun-dried grapes are included, and less frequently honey (which is never boiled). Either a decoction of herbs is used, or pressed herb juice, along with finely ground dried herbs. The 'must' is kept underground in clay vessels, or teak barrels. Modern preparation is industrialised to varying degrees.

There is a very well used preparation known as Ashwagandharishta which is used for fatigue, anxiety, insomnia, low libido/infertility, arthritis and other conditions (Vata imbalances). Nothing you ferment ashwagandha with is really going to taste good at a therapeutic dose Usual dose of these 'wines' is 30-60ml which can be diluted with water.

There is a page here with traditional ingredients listed:

http://www.herbalremedies.com/energy-tonic.html

but the recipe can vary...

The ginger, black pepper, long pepper (known collectively as trikatu - "three pungents") are used to enhance bioavailability and to strengthen digestion.

The cinnamon and cardamom have a similar effect, but less potent, and also lend aroma/flavor and carminative properties. The other ingredients are tonic & alterative.

Balarishta is another one that uses Ashwagandha.. the main ingredient is Bala (Sida cordifolia) with Ashwagandha

Edited May 9, 2007 by coin

[Monk]

Thanks for that info! I've been searching all over for some fermented ashwaganda recipe with no luck. It's one of my favorite herbs for training and mental well being. No chance it could be flavor combined to make it passable as a beverage, huh? I've had some ginseng sake in the past that had potent effects and tasted great. It just made me wonder about the withania as it is softer on my system i.e. doesn't make me manic but increases my endurance and focus.

Just had a little of the 1/2 gallon "root metheglyn" that I stuck in the fridge at racking. According to my lady, it's very drinkable now and she's a serious critic with a highly sensitive sense of smell/taste. She says that the juniper sticks out the most, giving it a hoppy flavour. Somehow I managed to make an ale without the use of hops or malt!? I'm just happy I'll have 5 gallons of drinkable brew. Also, I never really have liked the idea of the estrogenic effects that hops has on a person. I'd rather put herbs with the opposite potential in there like Smilax sp.

[Vertmorpheus]

Sounds like things are chugging along nicely! First thing I learnt with my own brews is that the yeast floaties are ok so long as you don't have a stomach fulla apple juice or something too :D Also I don't eat red meat, so those yeasties are a decent mobile protein source lol.

Ginseng sent me absolutely beaming for about three hours when I first tried it, finely sliced and soaked in a cup of fairly strong black tea.. woohoo! Had a bit to do that day and nothing was a problem :D But some people find it a bit too "hot" for their liking, the manic aspect is one part of it.. can also lead to the sweats at night and so on. But doesn't seem to be often. I've seen a fair range of wacky sounding brews for sale in shops in fortitude valley (think chinatown but then make it "notfromheretown"), deer antler wine is the most memorable. A lot have about twenty things in them for tonic qualities, all the usual suspects with chinese trad medicine are found and ginseng is one of the biggies. Some have some ingredients listed only in chinese, which make me wonder, but then I was worried it might say "pancreas of tortured zoo animal" or something. Some were for different applications, so toning, breathing, parenting all had their own special juice. Imagine a "Western" version of that "yeah mate I'll just grab a bottle of your OP Rum with extra caffeine, prozac, pseudo and codeine. Nah, not that one, the mango flavoured one. Cheers fer that..."

It's very easy to make an ale without hops as I think that's one of the vague kind of running definitions some work with... without malt is a bit weird but then with enough bitterness and "living plant" sweetness running around maybe it just came out close enough to be good enough in ye olden days people used heaps of things before hops turned up to give it a tang and stop it going rank so quickly. Rosemary, yarrow, thyme, lavendar, sage, all kinds of things. I know my sage and honey ale-strength brew comes out magically until it gets a LIL overrun then it has a bit of a disinfectant note from the goodies in the sage. never tried yarrow despite having pots on pots of the stuff laying around, and rosemary to me would just make it taste like a roast lamb haha (can't argue with association). But I hear in mexico or somewhere rosemary is one of the more popular peoples antiinflammatory, drink it as very hot tea. memory benefits as well, it'd seem. Molasses in a brew gives it a good solid tang but used with licquorice or similar can make it all a bit too anisy.

I once had a wandering train of thought (no, I really did!) involving some local honey and fruit as a base with lions tail as a bittering and preservative agent (anything that smells that much like some kind of flyspray has to stop things going off ) . never ended up doing it, but might have some potential ...for all I know the LT would knock the yeast on the head but it might be worth a shot.

bottoms up

GD

[coin]

American ginseng is not as hot...in chinese medicine, it's often recommended to leave the ginseng until you're dealing with old age (ie, healthy young people shouldn't get accustomed to it). Ashwagandha is heating also (not nearly as much as Chinese/Korean ginseng) and is usually prepared in milk or ghee, or given with rice, or some cooling herbs such a licorice if the patient has issues with heat.

I remember reading something about the phytoestrogens in hops not really making it into the beer in significant quantities.

FM - if you like the taste of medicinal wines, I'm sure the ashwagandha elixir would be palatable..depends how potent it is. I'll try infusing a high dose of some root powder in white wine some time and see how funky it is...but there's not too many herbs I find overpowering anymore. I haven't actually tried ashwagandharishta.

Edited May 10, 2007 by coin

[Monk]

Ok, so I'm intoxicated. Surprise! Tonight was bottling night for the root metheglyn. After aging for several weeks on two split vanilla beans, the brew was racked onto a half cup of maltodextrin (for body) and 3/4 cup dextrose (carbonation) before bottling 17 liter bottles. Boy am I happy and drunk off the stuff at the bottom of the carboy It does feel different than just drunk, though I suspect the safrole content of the dried "sassafras bark" from the ethnobotanical supplier was low. I think after this glass, I'll go do some pushups to see if I can get some bioamination going......

coin, have you tried that ashwaganda in wine experiment yet to see about palatability? I've still got loads in my freezer and more in the landscape.

[coin]

hey

no ... not yet ... i probably won't do it any time soon .. i don't buy wine much

for the general palate - it will never be tasty

when i use ashwagandha it is with milk, cardamom & sugar ... most people will not find ashwagandha palatable in any way....but so many people these days insist that they can't tolerate milk or sugar ;-)

i will buy some ashwagandharishta shortly....have found a good supplier...I'll 'report' back here but i don't expect it to be all that interesting

i did recommend ashwagandha to someone recently who is volunteering as a case study of mine -- he found the ashwagandha quite unpalatable and requested capsules and he is quite tolerant -- ie he didn't complain much but just insisted on an alternative that is typical ... no one wants to taste what they are ingesting

Edited June 17, 2007 by coin

[Monk]

As a person who has consumed all manner of bitter/acrid/planty things, I may tolerate or even learn to enjoy its effectual taste as has been the case in the past with things that most people are repulsed by. It seems that sometimes my body says, "these seeds (or whatever) make me feel good, therefore bitter must be good....yum, bitter seed juice." Either that or I'm just a weirdo who likes funky nature smells, bitter flavors, and a good punch in the face Going to the point of making 5 gal. of bitter brew, though, is a little extreme if I'm the only one who dares drink it. I'm headed to the kitchen to make some (soy)milk, cardamom, ashwaganda, sugar tea. I guess I'll soon know.

[Monk]

So this stuff was a big hit and has now been all gone for over a month. After getting much feedback, I have decided to cut down on the juniper berries, add some steeped grains, improve the sassafras flavor etc. Also, I decided to boil the other herbs for a shorter time (30 min), adding half at the beginning of the boil and the other half at flameout to preserve more of the aromatic components.

Last night was the night. Herbs processed as mentioned above and strained into bucket. 1.25 lb. "60L Crystal malt" (for body/mouthfeel/caramelly flavor) and 0.5 lb. torrified wheat (for head retentiono) were steeped in 140-170 deg F water for 30 min and strained into brew bucket. Cool water added to adjust temp to warm. 9 lb. fresh avocado honey added. 2 month soaked vodka extract of 4 oz. fresh (not dried!) S. albidum root bark tossed in. Vigorously stirred to aerate. Smell is amazing. WLP 530 (abbey ale yeast) pitched. Covered and airlocked. At this point, I'm not really looking for microorganism bioamination in this brew, just trying to improve on an already tasty recipe, but am hoping the psychoactivity will be improved by the much more potent sassafras that I was so fortunate to obtain.

FM