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The Corroboree
apothecary

To whoevers in the moderation queue

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Hi.

I see one post in my moderation queue, but I have no idea how to access it (or who made the post).

Please bear with me until I become slightly less retarded. I'm not holding onto your posts on purpose.

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i imagine that they wouldnt be able to post until authorised, so no point in asking "is it me" as you would be well aware i imagine lol

check out the new members listing 'P Members', im assuming that the people in que.

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check out the new members listing 'P Members', im assuming that the people in que.

actually, this is a special members group that allows me to vary other forum privileges, like stopping people from changing their usernames [handy when you have a troll popping up under a new name every day], or stopping people who use misleading member group names. Been meaning to do this for a while, and was encouraged to proceed by a problem memebr calling himself 'admin assisstant' or something like that [clearly in an effort to deceive or confuse other members, or quite likely just to see how far he can push me].

Members who are placed in the mod queue may or may not be placed into the 'p members' group as well - depending on what sort of trouble they cause.

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wow. :blink: i say we don't let them in unless we get photographic evidence of them wearing their "P", that way we'll all know who is who!!

post-1324-1171015046.jpg

(one example we might utilise).

or we could go with a flourishing scarlet p reminiscent of the scarlet a for adultery. i mean, it's not a real community unless the bad guys are truly visible and we know who to shun and who not to shun, right?

post-1324-1171015046.jpg

post-1324-1171015046.jpg

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voices from the grave? I thought you stormed out in a huff yesterday?

anyway, I tried to remove the membership group listings, but can't. I don't want people branded, but seriously, I couldn't be fucked wasting any more time on the trolls who indulge in wasting our time. in fact, obviously my attempts to give people second, third, fourth etc chances are only upsetting you, so in future I will not prolong the suffering of your friends and will simply delete them. they will be very grateful to you I am sure?

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i did storm off in a huff and realised i like a lot of people in this forum. if i'm not welcome here i'll leave.

what's the deal, torsten? have i not contributed to this forum at all or participated in a positive way? am i not allowed to be friends with someone you don't like personally? as a grown woman i don't operate like that, i'm sorry if that offends you. i have seen a number of other people behave in as rude of a fashion if not more so than my 'friend' and yet he's shitted you off so he's in P members. fair enough it's your forum, but don't for a minute suggest that if i don't play with the cool kids and like who the cool kids like i won't be liked either. YUCK.

you're a great person and have done a lot of great things for the community. can you not like someone personally and allow them to contribute? you've painted this one with a really thin brush. i don't like it. it's not my forum. i'll piss off if you'd like me to, but i'm not playing 'if you're friends with that guy that we don't like we don't like you either'. i just don't live my life that way.

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Everyone knows the story of terrorism since 2001. The loss of liberties and the imposition of greater and greater restrictions on personal liberties is advanced as a way to combat the terrorism bogeyman. However more people die in car crashes per annum than in terrorist attacks. You are more likely to be struck by lightning than die of a terrorist attack and yet the assaults on personal liberties are insane.

They get support from the unwashed masses because they are unaware of the realities. They agree to such disagreeable things like an "Australia Card" because they believe it will help to combat terrorism and illegal immigration etc. But what it does is actually surrender to the powers that be freedoms. It also in effect surrenders to the terrorists. Because every freedom that is robbed from ordinary people is a victory for the terrorists. Everything that makes life a little more troublesome is a victory.

Every measure put in place to combat an effectively small problem is a victory to the troublemakers. Every bit of wasted effort and change made necessary is a win for the "bad" guys.

It's a fine line. I think even the threat of being placed in a moderation queue sets up a bad karma situation. The freer more liberal (libertarian), and controversial people are going to draw attention all the time with the threat of gagging or banning. And yet I think they are the people who often stimulate discussion through presenting the side people haven't considered before.

Anyhow like I said before I acknowledge that measures may be necessary but also point out that they create harmful tension when none is necessary.

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It's a fine line. I think even the threat of being placed in a moderation queue sets up a bad karma situation.

Get over yourself.

Maybe a dozen long term members here were moderated by me fairly early after they started, and went on to make significant, long term and positive contributions. It's hardly fatal.

An edited post would be followed by a PM discussing the point of contention and in 90% of cases would be followed up with a brief civil discussion which resulted in an understanding at some level. The other 10% went off the wall so badly they got banned, and I can't say they were missed.

You can usually spot 'em early :devil:

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if i'm not welcome here i'll leave.

I didn't say that. However, it would be silly to deny that your support for someone who is hurting this forum so much is not appreciated by me personally. Especially when it is as unfair as you made out above.

what's the deal, torsten? have i not contributed to this forum at all or participated in a positive way? am i not allowed to be friends with someone you don't like personally?

Hmmm, I didn't have a problem with you, YOU had a problem with me. Until you started blaming me for all of GO's misfortunes we didn't have a problem. I might not respond to all your posts, but I read them and I find it quite offensive the way you try to portray me.

as a grown woman i don't operate like that, i'm sorry if that offends you. i have seen a number of other people behave in as rude of a fashion if not more so than my 'friend' and yet he's shitted you off so he's in P members.

No, he is in P members because he tried to use the descriptor to mislead other members. You can't on one hand claim he is so smart and on the other not admit that he knew full well that he called himself "admin assistant" to piss me off or to deceive other members. You can't have it both ways.

He is also in the mod queue because he has been disruptive and discordant for months. The straw that broke the camels back was that he refused to edit a post where he insulted and falsely accused a member. That member happens to be me, but I would have insisted on the same action if it was any other member. In fact if it was another member I or a mod would have edited the post, but because I am thick skinned I won't bother. Are you saying that it was right that he accused me of something and then leaves the post?

So is it OK if I post here that you regularly hit your child after shooting up crack? You seem to think that it is OK to make unfounded accusations on a forum. Where would we end up if this was acceptable standard? Why don't we all just make up shit about people we don't like and then see where this forums ends up? No matter what your other feelings are about censorship, labels and the style of this forum, this is essentially the type of behaviour you are endorsing and supporting by the commentary you are giving. So please clarify for me whether you think such accusatiosn are OK or not, because obviously there is either a misunderstanding here or you do not appreciate this forum.

fair enough it's your forum, but don't for a minute suggest that if i don't play with the cool kids and like who the cool kids like i won't be liked either. YUCK.

Yawn. Nothing like creating an upper class to play the victimised lower class eh? Pity you just don't get that we don't have classes here. We have respect here and that is earned nor granted. Green Osiris hasn't earned it, but he has earned the 'troll' and 'pain in the ass' tag many times over.

can you not like someone personally and allow them to contribute?

Hmmm, maybe you haven't been around long enough, but there are some people on this forum who hate my guts and the feeling is mutual. So what?

i'll piss off if you'd like me to, but i'm not playing 'if you're friends with that guy that we don't like we don't like you either'. i just don't live my life that way.

no, seems to be that you live life according to "if you're NOT friends with that guy then I'll just bugger off".

Seriously, the only reason why GO is the only on in the sin bin is because the others decided that maybe their style wasn't appreciated after all. Sob still doesn't seem to get the whole style and community thing either, but at least he seems to have a better feel for where the boundaries are.

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Sob still doesn't seem to get the whole style and community thing either, but at least he seems to have a better feel for where the boundaries are.

I think he does get the style and community thing quite well, and knows boundaries too.

In fact your statements in relation to freedom of speech (ie. no censorship) and lies is quite pertinent. Freedom of speech does not give licence to lie or cheat. Freedom of speech is something much purer than that, and must be practised with the right spirit. Like I mentioned in another thread, my view of freedom of speech is that it should be the freedom to express what one wants with no external censorship or influences. That doesn't mean it's a free for all, and lies and everything else goes.

There must be solid integrity backing up the right to free speech.

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if i'm not welcome here i'll leave.

I didn't say that. However, it would be silly to deny that your support for someone who is hurting this forum so much is not appreciated by me personally. Especially when it is as unfair as you made out above.

it isn't so much that i support 'him' personally, i support people's freedoms to say what they think and believe and i feel your treatment directed at him has more to do with his personal actions towards you than his 'disrupting the forum'. i've read through a number of posts he's made and have not seen all that much terrible in them. but i'm not a mod or admin, thank the gods.

what's the deal, torsten? have i not contributed to this forum at all or participated in a positive way? am i not allowed to be friends with someone you don't like personally?

Hmmm, I didn't have a problem with you, YOU had a problem with me. Until you started blaming me for all of GO's misfortunes we didn't have a problem. I might not respond to all your posts, but I read them and I find it quite offensive the way you try to portray me.

what the hell? what way do i try to portray you, torsten? please cut and paste these 'ways' i've 'tried to portray' you. :rolleyes:

as a grown woman i don't operate like that, i'm sorry if that offends you. i have seen a number of other people behave in as

rude of a fashion if not more so than my 'friend' and yet he's shitted you off so he's in P members.

No, he is in P members because he tried to use the descriptor to mislead other members. You can't on one hand claim he is so smart and on the other not admit that he knew full well that he called himself "admin assistant" to piss me off or to deceive other members. You can't have it both ways.

He is also in the mod queue because he has been disruptive and discordant for months. The straw that broke the camels back was that he refused to edit a post where he insulted and falsely accused a member. That member happens to be me, but I would have insisted on the same action if it was any other member. In fact if it was another member I or a mod would have edited the post, but because I am thick skinned I won't bother. Are you saying that it was right that he accused me of something and then leaves the post?

interestingly i also saw an apology from him which you refused to accept. he 'falsely' accused you of reading pms. big deal. it's your right to read whatever the hell you want on this forum, it belongs to you. i can understand you being terribly offended by the mere suggestion, but many of us don't 'know' you in real life nor do we have any basis to imagine you'd do anything that other moderators in other php forums can and do do on a daily basis. now, i can understand if a friend of yours that truly does KNOW you made that suggestion you'd be incensed (as would i), but why give so much credence through offense at something someone said on here who doesn't know you at all?

So is it OK if I post here that you regularly hit your child after shooting up crack? You seem to think that it is OK to make unfounded accusations on a forum. Where would we end up if this was acceptable standard? Why don't we all just make up shit about people we don't like and then see where this forums ends up?

that's pretty dramatic. i can see how a forum administrator having a right to read private messages on a forum is tanamount to stating someone is shooting up crack (i don't think people "shoot up" crack by the way :P) and hitting their child. seriously.

No matter what your other feelings are about censorship, labels and the style of this forum, this is essentially the type of behaviour you are endorsing and supporting by the commentary you are giving. So please clarify for me whether you think such accusatiosn are OK or not, because obviously there is either a misunderstanding here or you do not appreciate this forum.

this is the ultimate in drama and it's not necessary at all. what you don't seem to see is you've escalated all of this yourself. dude made a mistake and made a suggestion you've read pm's. it wasn't a nice thing to say to someone. people have made all kinds of not very nice statements here and nothing has been done. i made a personal message to you one day that i was feeling rather offended by posting of bouncing boobs, etc., and was told to deal with it. just deal with it. you made your point in refute that you highly value personal privacy. i'm sure you do highly value personal privacy especially with all the shit you would have had to deal with being such a visible member at the 'forefront' of the ethnobotanical community in this country. when he later apologised you told him no way you'd accept it yadda yadda. fair enough you don't want to accept an apology.

i can understand why it pissed you off.

fair enough it's your forum, but don't for a minute suggest that if i don't play with the cool kids and like who the cool kids like i won't be liked either. YUCK.

Yawn. Nothing like creating an upper class to play the victimised lower class eh? Pity you just don't get that we don't have classes here. We have respect here and that is earned nor granted. Green Osiris hasn't earned it, but he has earned the 'troll' and 'pain in the ass' tag many times over.

'yawn'. how would you respond to someone who responded to you in that fashion? i mean, is this about respect or not? if we didn't have classes here i wonder what would make me feel like pointing out the whole 'what's wrong with p members section and posting about it in this thread so EVERYONE is aware of it'. i'm not a victim. i'm a really cool person. i have a lot to offer in general in life. i've seen a lot. whilst i may not be an ethno master, i have a lot of interesting antecdotes and am actually a native american who's been amongst ooo for real life american indians in shamanic practice.

can you not like someone personally and allow them to contribute?

Hmmm, maybe you haven't been around long enough, but there are some people on this forum who hate my guts and the feeling is mutual. So what?

no, i didn't know that.

i'll piss off if you'd like me to, but i'm not playing 'if you're friends with that guy that we don't like we don't like you either'. i just don't live my life that way.

no, seems to be that you live life according to "if you're NOT friends with that guy then I'll just bugger off".

Seriously, the only reason why GO is the only on in the sin bin is because the others decided that maybe their style wasn't appreciated after all. Sob still doesn't seem to get the whole style and community thing either, but at least he seems to have a better feel for where the boundaries are.

no, it's not 'if you're not friends with that guy'. it's 'if you're not going to play in an equitable fashion'. if everyone who acts an arse gets moderated, etc., no worries. i haven't been seeing that. this has been far less about GO than it has been about equity and fairness across the board. i've mentioned this a number of times.

there's a bit of personality policing happening as well. some of us (myself included) appreciate the sarcasm and the taking the piss and aren't filled with the love and light that others are. that's ok. sarcasm, to some people, is terrific and amusing and intellectual as well. i hope the truth is there is no one 'vibe' we must promote as we all have different personalities. if we can use our different personalities to help one another out whilst allowing each other those differences more power to us as a group of people. if we can't then we are promoting 'onemind' and one way of being.

i haven't been the one to point out how GO is my friend (and actually i'm proud to call him my friend, we've had a lot of great emails back and forth and frankly he's one of the coolest cats i've 'met' online in a long, long time. he's a veritable font of awesome information and more than that he's a thinking person which i really dig). i like being around thinking people. the majority of the people here are just that. i can see past personality clashes, etc.

my issues, t, are not with you or pointing out where you are at fault. you don't have to get defensive with me at all. i do respect what you've done for the community and that you've been brave enough to be at the forefront of said. my concern is not 'i am going to defend Green Osiris', either. he's a big man, he can do that for himself i have absolutely no doubt in my mind. my concern as been about equity and applying rules FAIRLY across the board, not just taking out anger on someone (specific to GO) because he's shitted YOU off personally.

i hope that makes sense.

(edited some bad spellink)

Edited by evolutionNth

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i haven't been the one to point out how GO is my friend (and actually i'm proud to call him my friend, we've had a lot of great emails back and forth and frankly he's one of the coolest cats i've 'met' online in a long, long time. he's a veritable font of awesome information and more than that he's a thinking person which i really dig). i like being around thinking people. the majority of the people here are just that. i can see past personality clashes, etc.

Nice post evolutionNth.

Green_Osiris has a unique style that is surely going to be a love it or hate it thing, but for those who can read between the lines and understand some of the clever twists he brings then he is of great value.

There is no place for grudges or animosity I believe. I think that your points about the apology offered and it being snubbed are also valid; especially in the context you framed it ie. it would indeed be offensive if the person personally knows the other. Where there is incomplete information about the other person and circumstantial evidence then mistakes of judgement are possible. We're only human and make mistakes.

I too see beyond personality clashes and find tremedous value in everyone, even those who post contrary to my ideals.

Like I pointed out in another thread, the thing that distinguishes an educated mind is the ability to entertain thoughts (ideas and points of view) without necessarily accepting them.

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Green_Osiris has a unique style that is surely going to be a love it or hate it thing, but for those who can read between the lines and understand some of the clever twists he brings then he is of great value.

powerful and revolutionary people are like that, though, aren't they? i sometimes believe that even those of us who are desperately striving to live outside of boxes and pack mentalities sometimes put ourselves in the very situations we're attempting to free ourselves from. if it's innate, i absolutely believe we're evolving past it. we have to. i want to connect with community but struggle with it. i'm sure a number of members here feel the same way. the minute someone shoves their butt in your face it's back to establishing dominance like dogs. i absolutely believe we can move past that.

i may be crazy. i'm an anarchist who talks too much and is socially inept. i dunno. :unsure:

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i'm an anarchist...

I'm also an anarchist at heart but believe that in the real world anarcho-capitalism in a libertarian setting is what is achievable.

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ha! you just say that because you don't know 'the secret'. :P ahahahaha. wine is my friend.

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i've read through a number of posts he's made and have not seen all that much terrible in them. but i'm not a mod or admin, thank the gods.

Modding is not an exact science. As I mentioned before, we don't really care too much about the letter of the rules but rather the spirit of the rules. if someone follows to the letter, but is still a disruptive, trolling and negative influence then it is not OK to just say 'yes, but he followed the rules'.

what the hell? what way do i try to portray you, torsten? please cut and paste these 'ways' i've 'tried to portray' you. :rolleyes:

* post 7 in this thread - the inference is obvious - otherwise you would not have bothered making that image.

*Vent92 - "the moderating 'team' have simply shut down threads 'he' finds 'meaningless' and generally annoyed quite a few members (myself inclusive)"

that's just in the last 24 hours.

interestingly i also saw an apology from him which you refused to accept.

If I made a false accusation I would try and limit the damage done to the victim by removing as much evidence of the mistake I made as possible. I think that is generally how people make up for their mistakes. They first remove the mistake, and then maybe offer something to balance the damage they have done. For an insult or slander the first thing would be to remove the insult. Then to offer an apology. To me an apology is worthless if there is no intention to remove the damage. That's like stealing someone's bike in front of them and riding away waving 'sorry'. It makes no sense.

he 'falsely' accused you of reading pms. big deal. i can understand you being terribly offended by the mere suggestion, but many of us don't 'know' you in real life nor do we have any basis to imagine you'd do anything that other moderators in other php forums can and do do on a daily basis.

It has nothing to do whether someone knows me or not. Why should it? You don't just accuse a stranger of things without doing your homework or at least making rudimentary enquiries. Especially after I already stated the fact that I don't.

that's pretty dramatic. i can see how a forum administrator having a right to read private messages on a forum is tanamount to stating someone is shooting up crack (i don't think people "shoot up" crack by the way :P) and hitting their child. seriously.

The forum is my baby. By compromising it the way GO accused me to have done the analogy becomes much less dramatic.

what you don't seem to see is you've escalated all of this yourself.

LOL, you are conveniently forgetting all the warnings we were giving sob and GO well before this incident. As I said, it just broke the camel's back. I had been working on a some sort of sin bin mechanism for over a week before that happened and GO was still one of the top 5 candidates for it at that point. In fact, he was one of the 5 that actually triggered the process of mods and myself trying to work out a way to make some changes here - long before he pissed me of personally.

In fact come to think of it, I wonder if he did not insult me on purpose so that he could use this as his victim defence now. he's a clever guy and has played such sophisticated games before. But I guess it wouldn't have worked without someone buying into it. LOL, he's played us both. I fell for the insult and you fell for the victim :BANGHEAD2::worship::angry:

dude made a mistake and made a suggestion you've read pm's.

no, he didn't make a suggestion. In his arrogant way he made a clear statement of fact. Even offering proof.

people have made all kinds of not very nice statements here and nothing has been done. i made a personal message to you one day that i was feeling rather offended by posting of bouncing boobs, etc., and was told to deal with it. just deal with it.

Yep, just deal with the boobs. seriously, I don't like bouncing boobs either, but I can't fathom how they can be offensive in this day and age. The objectification of women is not just driven by men, but also by women who feed that obsession. if women were boob objectification victims then why do they keep putting silicon in them? Anyway, that's a separate topic way beyond this discussion [and please don't shred my rather simplified response here as it certainly doesn't capture the complexity of the issue]. Boobs are not a personal insult and in our free society I am not going to enforce male or female private parts having to be covered up on this forum. In fact I would prefer if people posted more male private parts :wink:

i can understand why it pissed you off.

Look, if I was pissed off I would have edited it and tried to remove all evidence of it. Instead it is still there as evidence of what kind of person GO is. ie, this is not about me, but about GO.

'yawn'. how would you respond to someone who responded to you in that fashion? i mean, is this about respect or not?

Yawn usually indicates we've been there before and it was all hot air last time too. That's why such a statement isn't worth elaborating on and deserves a yawn. In fact, we should really have a yawn smilie.

if we didn't have classes here i wonder what would make me feel like pointing out the whole 'what's wrong with p members section and posting about it in this thread so EVERYONE is aware of it'.

What I wrote was

"Problem members may also be barred from editing their profiles and may have other privis removed if they abuse them."

Note the use of the word 'may'. If all problem memebrs ended up in the Pmember group then why would I use 'may'? The settigns for a group are for the whole group - that's the point of member groups. So anyone in Pmembers will have the same restrictions on privis.

So how does a problem member get in the mod queue but not have privis restricted? Simpe, by not being put in the Pmembers group. In case it hasn't sunk in yet, they are two totally separate options available to the mod team. ie, the mod queue is mostly for mod problems while the Pmember group is mostly for admin problems.

When I posted about the mod queue for problem memebrs I did not mention the Pmembers group at all. I could have justa s well called them L members or T members, but in fact I used P for 'probationary'. This group also doubles for suspected spammers and other memebrs who need privi restrictions, but no other restrictions.

See, you made assumptions and you were wrong. Next time maybe ask rather than getting an attitude.

if everyone who acts an arse gets moderated, etc., no worries.

despite what opinion you might have formed, we really are trying.

some of us (myself included) appreciate the sarcasm and the taking the piss and aren't filled with the love and light that others are. that's ok. sarcasm, to some people, is terrific and amusing and intellectual as well.

I really enjoyed many of GO's and sobs discussions, but to be honest I am quite confrontational and have a thick skin. I even feel partly responsible for letting this get out of hand for so long because I enganged them a lot on their terms, which only encourages them. But there are limits and sarcasm really isn't that great to have in EVERY thread. And it's not like I don't notice sobs sarcasm, but I lately prefer not to buy into it anymore.

It's not easy being an admin and putting your own feelings aside to make decisions. For example, I thoroughly enjoyed GOs analysis of onemind's posts. But then a few hours later it dawned on me what he had actually done and that this sort of stalking behaviour really isn't acceptable in a friendly forum. But I couldn't act on GO at the time either because I had been neglecting the shit that onemind had been causing [due to it being in a forum I don't keep up with]. So you see, that at that point any action I take will be viewed as unfair by at least 50% of the membership. In fact, my rule is that if I get roughly equal complaints from each side then my job was well done. So yeah, definitely not an exact science, and sarcasm makes things more convoluted.

i haven't been the one to point out how GO is my friend

you did about 3 times.

one example is Vent 92.

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well, ok. he is my friend and i don't think that's changing. and my commentary about the moderating was directed at apothecary *and he's aware of that*, it wasn't directed at you. i believe he can be a bit of a nazi. but that's a whole other thing. he is 'following the rules'. 'he' shut down a thread that i was having fun in and 'participating in the community'.

with all due respect PLEASE note that the majority of us who are shitting about and having a fun time do avoid making commentary in the forums that 'matter' because, despite what may be perceived, we (i'm going to get up on my wine and say we) all understand that there are a majority of people who know a shitload more about ethnobotanicals than we do. we read those places and say nothing. we learn from there and then we have some fun with one another in chill space or speak of what we DO know ethno-wise if we can. note that, hey.

ok. sexism is not allowed but it is ok to objectify women because some women choose to be objects. nevermind the women here. all four of us? gotcha. :lol: let's objectify men's bodies too! woot! i'm a freak, hey. seriously i'm asexual and probably the only person up in here who can lay claim to such virilent freakitude. i don't get "it". i'm ok, you're ok. banrock station is really ok.

i don't have a problem with you. in another life i may marry green osiris. it's nothing personal. we'll ask you to officiate.

THE IMAGE IS ONE YOU CREATED MATEY!! you posted all about what it meant to be a 'p member"! good heavens! i just brought it home for ya. ;) x0x0x if you know what that image means you can certainly understand the inference. (is that a word?) i don't believe you're a nazi for one second, but i do believe we all are human beings and none of us infallible.

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p.s.

torsten, if you want to know ever what i'm thinking or why i'd say something please pm me about it. i don't hide anything and i'm the most hideously forthright person you could ever hope to avoid. i'll always tell you like it is. don't just assume i'm talking about you. we're not all talking about you, you know. ;P :lol:

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I have to say that this forum has one of the most unusual policies on editing of posts that I've seen. Some forums restrict editing to a certain time period after a post for correction of elementary spelling or grammatical errors and some forums don't allow editing at all once the post goes through (but usually require a preview before hitting the final post button).

I think integrity of the threads is important to be honest. It allows honest appraisal of a thread at some point in the future and does not give room to sanitisation or editing to create a false representation of events. I haven't seen that sort of malicious back editing on this forum, but to require that people go into threads after the event and delete or edit things distorts the flow of events and makes some subsequent posts appear to be nonsensical.

The "Hot Asian Chick" thread was a case in point that turned thread integrity into a fiasco in what was basically an off topic joke thread.

It's like asking the stenographer at court to go back and erase and modify certain things after the event; or for government Hansards to be edited. To me it is anathema. If a mistake was made and an apology offered there should be no need to modify the post since that means that no one who reads that thread later knows what transpired. Why must we revise history?

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