T.Bridgesii and it's reputed lingering after effects.

[XipeTotec]

Initial posts here have been taken from the T.Bridgesii Dose and preperation thread...I thought this particular topic should be discussed further within it's own thread.

[XipeTotec]

Post 1

BLACK DRAGON: I have herd that fresh/new/short pups freash may cause unwanted(or not prepared for) psycologial disturbances in time/space that can last for 3 weeks or more. Sometimes they never quite leave, although this may be percived as unwanted effect, it may also be part of the long term teaching aspect of the journey.. a reminder if you like. It seems these other actives may break down through heat(suspected so).

Post 2

SHROOMYTOONOS : does anyone else know anyone who has experienced the phenomena?

Post 3

YOUNG TRIPPER:"have herd that fresh/new/short pups freash may cause unwanted(or not prepared for) psycologial disturbances in time/space that can last for 3 weeks or more. Sometimes they never quite leave, although this may be percived as unwanted effect, it may also be part of the long term teaching aspect of the journey.. a reminder if you like. It seems these other actives may break down through heat(suspected so)."

Yes i can concur these reports a friend of mine had an experience in amsterdam, a very troubled time in his life and he deceided to have some bridgessi after a long long period of pondering on it. The experience itself was the most fullon personal journey that took him to the edge of what he thought he knew... which was nothing tongue.gif i do suggest to people IF they are going to try this please to take BD's advice and start low and work up, effects can and do linger on to the next few days too weeks keep this in mind also it can be a very rough and hard space to navigate depending on where your at in your life, My 2cents worth here along the lines of what BD was saying that it can also be part of the long term teaching aspect i feel very strongly about and no matter what ones views are the cactus shall and will facilitate what itself believes to be relevant to oneself in its own way be it dark, intrusive and decadent... whether one knows at the time or not what is really happening on all fundemental levels..

Post 4

THE TINKERER:Can I also suggest that if its practical, it's probably a good idea to have someone with you, for comfort and grounding if needed. In countries where it is legal I have had brews of pedro and peruvianus that have been a pleasurable walk in the park. My experience with bridgesii was one of the most personal and profound experiences I have ever had. For those who have been there, the loop can be a little confronting but once you work it out and get to the next part, well what can I say. I probably had too much, and the people I was with said they haven't seen anyone go so deep for so long(6hrs before I was with the land of the living), but I wouldn't think twice about doing it again. Definitely not for the faint hearted, but it is certainly a life changing experience.

[XipeTotec]

A few Questions...

1. How high a dose have these people taken to receive the lingering after effects?(I have been told of this happening by someone who had a very high dose, not sure of part of plant consumed though)

2.Could one expect lingering effects after any dose? What is the nature of these effects? How debilitating?

3.Are these lingering effects associated only with young pups, or could it be any part of plant?

4.Black Dragon stated that he believed the lingering effects could be eliminated by preparing Bridgesii with heat. What does he base this belief on?

[Bongchitis]

Aren't all these side effects part and parcel of taking drugs? ...and the guy who took a good dose of T.Bridgesii in a difficult part of his life was not doing himself any favours IMHO. These drugs cause you to reflect on life/love and all things important, if you are not happy or satisfied with these aspects or are not being true to yourself, it can be awfully confronting.

With respect to lingering side effects.....Good E, Big Day Out a couple of years ago, Boiler Room............I could not stop grooving to the music that was still in my head for days, not to mention the tight jaw and pleasurably tense muscles at the base of the skull & behind the ears. These side effects could be viewed as fantastic or a complete pain in the arse depending on your frame of mind.

I have never had a negative psychadelic experience unless I took too much or had shit going on!

I know this is a bit of a hijack, and not specific to T.Bridgesii, but it keeps coming back to dose, mindset, setting and the fact that everyone is different!

[Μορφέας]

not specific to T.Bridgesii, but it keeps coming back to dose, mindset, setting and the fact that everyone is different!

yet what shortoons is pointing out is that there is a discrepancy in the effects of a single cactus, depending on where you harvest from.

You have to now add another varible into your list (dose, mindset, setting and the fact that everyone is different) , in regards to Bridgesii you have to factor it in

That is unless the few people who experiance the phenominom happened to all eat early shoots and be in a bad mind set, dose and setting? pure coincidental

Edited February 9, 2007 by tepa

[ajna]

i'm very interested in hearing more about the 'extra' effects some bridgesii's are providing, it seems quite obvious there's more than just a potency difference between them and cousin pachanoi.

but what Bongchitis mentioned needs some consideration also, set and setting can be some of the greatest variables. i have experienced lingering effects for at least 2 weeks after an overindulgent period with our trusted friend Lucy; this really could only have been attributed to mental state and situation at the time. it certainly was an intense period of learning, but i haven't taken a journey when i feel ungrounded since and haven't ever been 'stuck there' again (granted, i haven't dosed on fresh bridg pups either ).

ajna

Edited February 9, 2007 by ajna

[teonanacatl]

Most evidence ive seen seems to indicate that younger growth is low in mescaline compared to older growth. People seem to take the fresh cactus without to much worry of what the actual content of alkaloids is. As i said in the other thread after talking to some people about the dose of eileen they take or have taken its up around 1g of mescaline, I dont know too many people that would accept 1g of mescaline in its pure form. So nowonder they have hardcore times. Same thing goes with peyote and native americans, it would seem they consume more then 500mg of mescaline in a night, and mescaline is only like 50% of the alkaloids that means they are consuming another 500mg of other alkaloids.

You guys have to remember these compounds are poisonous so do continue to treat with care.

[Ace]

You guys have to remember these compounds are poisonous so do continue to treat with care.

Teo, could you please expand on this quote? I understand that some of these alkaloids (namely mescaline) is hallucinogenic, but what are the poisonous effects and where are these sourced from? Pure mesc wouldnt be poisonous would it? Surely it would be the other constituants? Sorry if this has been discussed before...

Many thanks

Ace

[Μορφέας]

iv been told that u can get 'peyote poisining'??

[BlackDragon]

Exactly teo, the shear abundance of the main active is HUGELY different to it cousin(pachanoids). I agree it can cause unexpected OD in a way(OD not nesecerily being bad, just unintentional).

Also, as i previously mentioned, and like bong said, i think some people are missing the fact that this is a strong teacher, and some of the answers are not always what people are expecting.

My thoughts are that the fresh shoots show a differing makup than older growth, not saying these "toxic"compounds dont exisit in older growth tho, just to lesser extent.. Perhaps more toxic compounds are formed to "protect" the new shoots from predators, or just show an accumilation of higher toxic compounds in ratio to the main active.

[Fenris]

The LD50 for mescaline is somewhere in the 300mg/kg of body mass range.

300-500mg ?? being a psychedelic dose?

As a comparison, the LD50 for aspirin is 100mg/kg of body mass.

[Humanfuel]

4.Black Dragon stated that he believed the lingering effects could be eliminated by preparing Bridgesii with heat. What does he base this belief on?

....With the heat treatment eliminating the lingering effects.....

Mesc is very heat tolerant..... therefore by boiling the material down... you might be retaining the Mesc..... but breaking down many of the other alkaloids found in the fresh cactus.....!!!!!.... so by consuming fresh... you should have different effects to boiling down to a tea then consuming...... and even more so when going as far as an AB extraction..... where only certain alkaloids will dissolve in the selected solvent.... therefore loosing even more of the total alkaloids found in the cacti.....!!!!! (bring it closer to just pure Mesc....!!!)

Therefore it is usually not advised to do AB extractions on Peyote... as you loose the more "magical" effects... due to the loose of the alkaloid "cocktail"...associated with the cacti......

...and as far as the poisoning...... will this be due to the tyramine content .............?????????

[Humanfuel]

The LD50 for mescaline is somewhere in the 300mg/kg of body mass range.

300-500mg ?? being a psychedelic dose?

As a comparison, the LD50 for aspirin is 100mg/kg of body mass.

...that's a hell of a lot of Mesc. to kill some one.....!!!!.... wow...!!!

[XipeTotec]

Teo, could you please expand on this quote? I understand that some of these alkaloids (namely mescaline) is hallucinogenic, but what are the poisonous effects and where are these sourced from? Pure mesc wouldnt be poisonous would it? Surely it would be the other constituants? Sorry if this has been discussed before...

Many thanks

Ace

everything is poison. Some things alot more than others. Not sure about the toxicity of cacti. The thing with psychedelics is that you will generally blow your mind before you poison yourself.

[teonanacatl]

Everything is poisonous if a dose is taken high enough. The effects we seek would be defined as being a posion to lots of people, ie mary goes mushroom picking and gets some cubes in here edibles and she will complain of mushroom posioning. The compounds we love so much are poisonous (and the fact that vomiting is a part in some experience is a sign), with the LD 50 ranging far and wide depending on the class of compound and mode of effect. Lets not forget the reason these compounds are in the plant, according to science this is to somehow aid the plant in producing other generations, for plants like lettuce this is a lack of chemistry, for plants like peyote this means a load of chemistry. The chemicals are designed to deter predation, same with things like ricin.

http://leda.lycaeum.org/?ID=16853

Thats a good read.

I guess all im trying to point out is that there will be side effects of consumption of almost any plant, this is part of the experience. Just dont over do it.

As for what causes the side effects im with the others in the thread who think set and setting aswell as contraindication with diet and such, also enviornmental factors might favour the major production of a compound normally only present in small amounts. Be smart, if the side effects only show up after having cactus every day for a week then its probably your body telling you somthing.

[naja naja]

The thing with psychedelics is that you will generally blow your mind before you poison yourself.

yeah right,

5-hydroxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine

2-C analouges are all hell safe in high doses hey

Edited February 9, 2007 by naja naja

[naja naja]

 

 

for plants like lettuce this is a lack of chemistry

But u will notice it returns again when it goes to seed ensureing nothing eats the seed before it's ripe.

[XipeTotec]

yeah right,

5-hydroxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine

2-C analouges are all hell safe in high doses hey

I'm not actually saying that large doses can't harmful, I'm saying that people who know how they are dosing ( for example, increasing dosage with each trip), will often reach a mental threshold, before they reach a physical threshold.

Edited February 9, 2007 by shroomytoonos

[Hellonasty]

I'm not actually saying that large doses can't harmful, I'm saying that people who know how they are dosing ( for example, increasing dosage with each trip), will often reach a mental threshold, before they reach a physical threshold.

I think it really depends what you are dosing. A classic example would be a deliriant such as atropine, you would not even be conscious of reaching a "mental threshold" and therefore over dose causing harful physical effects without any knowledge of it happening. Even a very exprienced campainger can succumb to her lure as the line is very fine.

[XipeTotec]

I think it really depends what you are dosing. A classic example would be a deliriant such as atropine, you would not even be conscious of reaching a "mental threshold" and therefore over dose causing harful physical effects without any knowledge of it happening. Even a very exprienced campainger can succumb to her lure as the line is very fine.

true

[foolsbreath]

T. bridgesii apparently contains Kaempferol and Quercetin (M S SMITH) These act as MAOI's

This could explain some of the longer felt effects as these chemilcals can effect individuals in varying ways. Is it possible they may be in higher concentrations in new growth, and when a dose is prepared using both new and old growth, the effects are amplified

everything is poison. Some things alot more than others. Not sure about the toxicity of cacti. The thing with psychedelics is that you will generally blow your mind before you poison yourself.

I generally think this term to be true if one doses appropriately (starting low and working up), with the important word being psychedelics. Yeah its easy to poison yourself on dileriants, narcotics and stimulants, the later 2 particularly as theie classes include many habit forming substances.

Watch out when combining stuff though as thresholds can be raised or lowered significantly

eg

5-hydroxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine, Love it, tried it OS and think its great, but could never reach true physically harm on its own, it would be mentally to hard, mix it with maoi's and there could be a lot of trouble!!

[Auxin]

T. bridgesii apparently contains Kaempferol and Quercetin .... This could explain some of the longer felt effects as these chemilcals can effect individuals in varying ways.

No shock, common compounds, of course if the effect is also present in alkaloid extracts it would blow the flavonoid hypothesis out of the water- kaempferol and quercetin would be completely removed in a clean A/B alkaloid extraction. BTW if quercetin is an MAOI its probably a incredibly feeble one, onion is 5% quercetin. Many foods have kaempferol, generally in small amounts tho.

Hey now, if quercetin could alter mescalines effects...

Peyote onion soup?

Trich curry?

[foolsbreath]

LOL

mmmmm trich curry! Would have to be seriously spicey IMO

Yeah, it is a weak link for the alteration of effects seen, but as the other trich's don't have these compounds in appreciable quantities, I thought it worth mentioning. The second paper linked found inhibition due to Quercetin in the 20-100mg/kg range in rats which is note worthy.

Kaempferol as an MAOI

Quercetin as an MAOi

[teonanacatl]

Foaf told me that approx 450mg pure mescaline was approx equivalent in duration and intensity of experience to approx 450mg of standardised water extract. The only things that were different was the mescaline made him feel sicker (though he dosed the cactus over time and the mescaline all at once), he was able to throw up on cactus which is a good thing he feels, and the cactus had a significantly greater body load which lasted into the next day. Both experiences had the same themes and both were a bit sinister/dark at times, somthing he had hoped would not be present with the cactus. Overall he probably prefered the cactus but will definetly be using the mescaline again in higher doses.

Foaf has also run TLC on a/b extracts and found mescaline to be the only alkaloid present.

[Auxin]

Hello, in checking out those links something jumped out at me...

Kaempferol, apigenin and chrysin proved to be potent MAOIs, but produced more pronounced inhibition of MAO-A than MAO-B. IC50 (50% inhibition concentration) values for the ability of these three flavones to inhibit MAO-A were 7×10[-7], 1×10[-6] and 2×10[-6] M

Apigenin is also an anxiolytic at a dose of 10 mg/kg. A non-alkaloidal anxiolytic MAO-A inhibitor could be worth investigating. A quick glance at Dr Dukes doesnt give any quantitative data for apigenin but if nothing else celery is 0.2% apiin which yields apigenin on hydrolysis. Parsley has more I think.