PSYCHOACTIVE AMANITAS

husk · February 8, 2008

nup no offense, lively rocks... just dont make me out to be a bit of a nong for daring to point out that, as an undifferentiated genus, Amanitas are in fact poisonous. You cant pull shreds off what I posted about em being so, and then point out that "they are dangerous yes but no more so than some other things". Am I making reasonable enough, personally truthful posts, or am I making dangerous blanket statements on a well read and very popular online drug info resource? I know which approach needs more in the way of cautioning... and, FTR, I never said meanies were safe. I said they had been, in the past, entirely fine with my system and standards. I'd neve say they were entirely safe, or not dangerous at all, which is why I took exception to the statements mutant made. That, and the implied suggestion winky face that eating fungi x is somehow more "worthy" especially to "some people" and that "especially these people" might benefit from a closer look. WTF? I eat what I want to eat, I don't eat things on principle. Isnt that half of what this "community" is about, making your own choice?

totally dude, i don't try to make anyone look like a nong. and i dislike that now i have to pull more shreds to further justify what i said as inoffensive or incorrect. the only reason i bothered replying to you is because i usually respect yr balanced posts and found this one a little confusing as such.

i never said "amanitas are fine and dandy, you should try them."

i was pointing out that to consider other substances to be generally less dangerous and that if u try, let's face it here, muscarias is misleading. atleast that's what i understood was being specified here, i, maybe stupidly, assumed muscarias are the 'psychoactive amanitas' that ppl will be talking of/having interest in and to a lesser extent pantherinas.

i really hope that noone here nor anywhere else, unless they have death wish, are going to experiment with phalliodes, verna or virosa, and i didn't think that needed to be pointed out, but here we are!

to offer up that "Alcohol isnt real good for you either, on the other hand I can drink a whole bottle of rum in one evening and wake up more or less fine the next day," is extremely misleading. a whole bottle of rum could easily result in alcohol poisoning/liver damage, not to mention what one then does whilst in this condition. i personally think alcohol pointless and a waste of money but i'm not going to say "don't do it, it will kill you." to ass to that i also loved the look of the odd blotter in my hey day but even so would not deem it 'safer' than anything else.

to me this sounds like you are unfairly and without first hand experience saying that to experiment with 'psychoactive amanitas' is less productive than drilling/KILLING yrself with a bottle of rum. i don't personally give a shit about how hard someone thinks they are or are not for having tried somthn, but i do care when someone 'factually' writes off somthn without really knowing about it, i consider that false information, granted it is yr opinion and you are totally entitled to it, far be it from me to have to tell you this, but if yr opinion cannot be open to accepting someone else having experienced said substance and found themselves to have gotten somthn out of it or not be dead or even to be trying and clear up a muddied subject matter... then i wonder, why bother opinionating?

but, you did, in comparsion, suggest a blotter or a handful of other fungus is more safe then that of a serving of amanitas and if we are talking about, once again 'psychoactive amanitas' then we are obviously referring to muscaria/pantherina.

the fact is we should be talking personally here, our experience/advice CAN be taken as information by someone who is interested in what we are talking about and to suggest that one substance is more or less safer than another is being biased, imo.

i put it to you that the majority of illicit substances one may or may not have come into contact with here in this country cannot be deemed safe or dependable. and to an extent that's the point. i doubt any of us when we were younger fully informed ourselves truthfully about the facts relating to weed, speed, pills, coke, tabs etc. we most probably used a bit of *reckless abandon and courage along with a good dose of 'friendly' support to down the things we may once have downed.

now, being older and wiser :wacko: we hopefully seek the truth as to what can occur when using such substances and so, in the same way of suggesting "amanitas sp. are safe" as to suggest a random blotter or a bottle of rum is a safer choice(?) i see that just as irresponisble.

i guess this could of been or can be cleared up by specifying the exact substance in question, which as i said b4, I assumed would be understood as amanita muscaria/pantherina the 'psychoactive amanitas' which have been take on numerous occasions by many ppl without ill effect, they do contain toxins that can make you sick or dead, but there is a fairly reputible way of rendering them relatively 'safe' (*keeping in mind the 'common' mindset of young 'high-getters') for consumption, whether to get high or to have a feed, HOWEVER for added safety KNOW YR PRODUCT before ingestion.

i do not advise anyone to experiment consuming any kind of fungus without knowing what it is and what it can/can't do to you.

and to that i also suggest ANY drug you get off the street could not be what you think it is which is why some of us have such a keen interest in natural 'drugs' right?

peace x

Edited February 8, 2008 by husk

Vertmorpheus · February 8, 2008

haha, this is shaping up to be this weeks "kinda pointless n confusing battle of personalities" thread... welcome aboard.

one... bottle o rum... how is stating what i find to be true, and making clear that thats all im doing, "misleading". How is it more misleading than "amanitas are not dangerous"... which is fine, when talking amongst grown ups, and fine, when viewed in context... all it take is some schoolkid to cut n paste that one, have it read by some others, and we might just have a problem.

two... a whole bottle or rum can easily lead to quite a few serious problems... unless you can drink like a grownup and take nearly 10 hours to down it... if someone reads "in one evening" (a vague and personal reference) and decides they want to be "hard" (subtle...) and try and drink the fucker as fast as humanly possible, well thats pretty dumb. There is plenty of info and education out there to help people decide that... there isnt quite as much about Amanitas as a genus. And when someone makes blanket, impersonal, pseudoreferenced remarks about "amanitas are not dangerous" WITHOUT making a differentiation of species ( critical to discussing myco matters, i dont care who gets offened about that... use common names, or binomials, unless you really DO mean an entire genus). But about the rum... if you read it in context, it was in relation to the statement that amanitas are less toxic or worrysome than drinking... so in regards to my personal decision to abstain from using them, I mentioned that even consuming alcohol at the outer limits of sensible conduct (as a whole bottle in an evening certainly is, thanks for that enlightening point.. here was me sold on capitalist propaganda about it making me sexy and smart... I certainly assumed most people capable of turning on a computer would be aware beyond a doubt that drinking a whole bottle of spirits in one evening is not the best idea you will ever have ) I've never been too much the worse for wear later ...(remember mutant raised the point of drinks vs "amanitas" whereas I couldnt say the same for eating a fistful of fungus of extremely variable potency and of a hard to really ID nature. Which is true. How are my own decisions being questioned here, let alone with the rider that I am somehow the narrow minded one? :rolleyes:

anyrate, its very hard to work out from the thread alone that mutant ISNT saying "all amanitas have been falsely presented as toxic and are in fact rewarding, just exact a heavy toll on you sometimes". Silly me for worrying about people I've never fuckin met, I guess.

three... killing yourself... dont tell others not to offer any kind of judgement, claim to refrain from doing the same, then go about doing just that. If you ever see me writing "drinking a bottle of rum in one evening is not dangerous, just difficult" then let me know, and ill send you a dollar. As for first hand experience, who I tell about what is up to me. But you're probably quite far off the mark there. But nevermind... guess away. See posting rules for details. (god forbid, someone tried some cool hippy thing and didnt ascribe to it all the powers of god and oprah rolled into one, start proselitysing so all withing arms reach about how it can solve all their problems and is much better than drinking... ill be fucked!). BTW a bottle of rum costs me about 3 dollars, and in any typical "night in" I would be lucky to consume more than half a dozen standard drinks (hangovers and toddlers...bad mix).

four... a blotter or a sensible amounts of psilo shrooms is in my belief safer than a serving of possibly inactive, possibly fun, possibly hepatoxic mushrooms that are by nature much harder to accurately ID than say a run of the mill goldie. anyway, thats really neither here or there as you see mto be saying on one hand that amanitas arent dangerous, and suggesting they are is some kind of nazi act... but then in the next breath say that everything else is dangerous anyway? Note that i dont disagree with you about the dangers of other things... merely mutants statement that (para) "ive heard theyre bad for your liver but i dont know anyway amanitas are not dangerous". Whats to like about a line like that?

five... i put it to you (i like that... real classy like...) that you shouldnt assume everyone else has similar patterns of use to anyone else youve ever met. I entirely agree, very few thigns are safe, esp drugs. Which is why I too ksteps to clarify that "amanitas are dangerous". Are you saying theyre not? or just that im a tool for daring to remind groovy cats that they are? either way, i ask again... would you feed wild picked muscarias (lets me specific here) to someones Nan? If not, why not. And would you recommend the same metaphorical nana try very low doses of ganj as a possible aid to her suffering of say cancer? once again, if not why not?

I would do the latter, but never the former, because its very hard to end up on lifelong dialysis from a few cones. that aside, I'd still never go so far as to say that "cannabis is entirely safe". Same deal with the dollar!

six... ya right...couldve been a lot clearer. Which is what I was attempting to do. IF all info regarding nitas was erased from the earth bar one phrase, would you rather it was "these can be very dangerous, even the "proper ones" can be very dangerous at times" or "amanitas are not dangerous". Thats all its about. Who can or cant try what they want has fuck al lto do with me, unless you drive while doing it, and i never said anyone shouldnt try anything. BUt feel free to just plug the gaps as it were with whatever "probably fits". See number three.

"i do not advise anyone to experiment consuming any kind of fungus without knowing what it is and what it can/can't do to you." ... am I right to take this as "yes indeedy they can be dangerous and just as much so as any other drug"? And can I also take this to mean that you have a clear opinion as to whether Amanita muscaria does or does not pose any risk of acute damage or death?

one day, I will offer an opinion that isnt the "party line" that all drugs are fantastic and any negative info about them MUST be propaganda and ignorance without the "open minded" shit being rammed down by throat. news flash... two people can take on the same information and experience and reach two different conclusions.

If it helps, I apologise and wholeheartedly agree that Amanitas are not dangerous. Eat all you want, theyre just fine! Not like the ganj... that shit can kill you in a couple days...

VM

edity bit... was going to type up n post the process of amatoxin, ibotenic acid and muscarine poisoning, the list of species its found in, and the typical thing to do if you find yourself poisoned...but being as its from Mushrooms n Toadstools of Australia written by Shephard and Totterdell (found it, yay!) , it is of course paranoida mongering propaganda, in fact I wouldnt be surprised if the whole thing wasn't some kind of CIA/DEA engineered publication. The last thing anyone needs is information about things that are generally considered poisonous, likelihood of it happening, percentage of poisonings resulting in fatality, or what raesonably easy to source chemical you should dose with if you find yourself in trouble.

Edited February 8, 2008 by Vertmorpheus

husk · February 8, 2008

haha, this is shaping up to be this weeks "kinda pointless n confusing battle of personalities" thread... welcome aboard.
one... bottle o rum... how is stating what i find to be true, and making clear that thats all im doing, "misleading". How is it more misleading than "amanitas are not dangerous"... which is fine, when talking amongst grown ups, and fine, when viewed in context... all it take is some schoolkid to cut n paste that one, have it read by some others, and we might just have a problem.

cos yr stating that to drink a bottle of alcohol is fine for you but are using it in reference to being more sensible/safer/preferrable whatever than someone else eating amanita muscaria, infact noone even wrote "amanitas are not dangerous" except for you just then so you've really brought up both problems!

alcohol is far more problematic and fatal to humans than the mushrooms in question so why bring it up?

two... a whole bottle or rum can easily lead to quite a few serious problems... unless you can drink like a grownup and take nearly 10 hours to down it... if someone reads "in one evening" (a vague and personal reference) and decides they want to be "hard" (subtle...) and try and drink the fucker as fast as humanly possible, well thats pretty dumb. There is plenty of info and education out there to help people decide that... there isnt quite as much about Amanitas as a genus. And when someone makes blanket, impersonal, pseudoreferenced remarks about "amanitas are not dangerous" WITHOUT making a differentiation of species ( critical to discussing myco matters, i dont care who gets offened about that... use common names, or binomials, unless you really DO mean an entire genus). But about the rum... if you read it in context, it was in relation to the statement that amanitas are less toxic or worrysome than drinking... so in regards to my personal decision to abstain from using them, I mentioned that even consuming alcohol at the outer limits of sensible conduct (as a whole bottle in an evening certainly is, thanks for that enlightening point.. here was me sold on capitalist propaganda about it making me sexy and smart... I certainly assumed most people capable of turning on a computer would be aware beyond a doubt that drinking a whole bottle of spirits in one evening is not the best idea you will ever have ) I've never been too much the worse for wear later ...(remember mutant raised the point of drinks vs "amanitas" whereas I couldnt say the same for eating a fistful of fungus of extremely variable potency and of a hard to really ID nature. Which is true. How are my own decisions being questioned here, let alone with the rider that I am somehow the narrow minded one?

as i recall i was the one differentiating between species, you were the one posting poisoning cases about the ingestion of phalliodes and other unidentified, not even amanita, mushrooms in a thread entitled, PSYCHOACTIVE AMANITAS.

whether it was your own decision to drink that much rum or not eat amanita muscarias i still understand you to be saying one is less destructive/dangerous than the other without you having tried both and as this material can be read, paraphrased, misquoted by a 'schoolkid..., have it read by some others, and we might just have a problem' why are you even joking about the misuse of alcohol?

anyrate, its very hard to work out from the thread alone that mutant ISNT saying "all amanitas have been falsely presented as toxic and are in fact rewarding, just exact a heavy toll on you sometimes". Silly me for worrying about people I've never fuckin met, I guess.

i didn't gather that at all from what mutant wrote.

three... killing yourself... dont tell others not to offer any kind of judgement, claim to refrain from doing the same, then go about doing just that. If you ever see me writing "drinking a bottle of rum in one evening is not dangerous, just difficult" then let me know, and ill send you a dollar. As for first hand experience, who I tell about what is up to me. But you're probably quite far off the mark there. But nevermind... guess away. See posting rules for details. (god forbid, someone tried some cool hippy thing and didnt ascribe to it all the powers of god and oprah rolled into one, start proselitysing so all withing arms reach about how it can solve all their problems and is much better than drinking... ill be fucked!). BTW a bottle of rum costs me about 3 dollars, and in any typical "night in" I would be lucky to consume more than half a dozen standard drinks (hangovers and toddlers...bad mix).

i have no idea what yr getting at here. what was my judgement? :scratchhead:

four... a blotter or a sensible amounts of psilo shrooms is in my belief safer than a serving of possibly inactive, possibly fun, possibly hepatoxic mushrooms that are by nature much harder to accurately ID than say a run of the mill goldie. anyway, thats really neither here or there as you see mto be saying on one hand that amanitas arent dangerous, and suggesting they are is some kind of nazi act... but then in the next breath say that everything else is dangerous anyway? Note that i dont disagree with you about the dangers of other things... merely mutants statement that (para) "ive heard theyre bad for your liver but i dont know anyway amanitas are not dangerous". Whats to like about a line like that?

i never said amanitas aren't dangerous, please refer to my previous posts about specifc species.

i said other substances can be just as dangerous when not used correctly/carefully, "like heroin... and THATS Not dangerous is it, as long as its clean, of knnown potency". exactly like you said.

i believe mutant may have said "anyway amanitas are not dangerous" because as i said many times before, his post regards PSYCHOACTIVE AMANITAS so he prolly isn't even considering other amanitas in his posts. i don't know ask him!

five... i put it to you (i like that... real classy like...) that you shouldnt assume everyone else has similar patterns of use to anyone else youve ever met. I entirely agree, very few thigns are safe, esp drugs. Which is why I too ksteps to clarify that "amanitas are dangerous". Are you saying theyre not? or just that im a tool for daring to remind groovy cats that they are? either way, i ask again... would you feed wild picked muscarias (lets me specific here) to someones Nan? If not, why not. And would you recommend the same metaphorical nana try very low doses of ganj as a possible aid to her suffering of say cancer? once again, if not why not? I would do the latter, but never the former, because its very hard to end up on lifelong dialysis from a few cones. that aside, I'd still never go so far as to say that "cannabis is entirely safe". Same deal with the dollar!

some amanitas are dangerous some are not when treated properly, that's what i'm saying. i never called you a tool, nong or

if someone's 'Nan' wanted to try muscaria, sure, weed, why not... i couldn't give her the weed though.

six... ya right...couldve been a lot clearer. Which is what I was attempting to do. IF all info regarding nitas was erased from the earth bar one phrase, would you rather it was "these can be very dangerous, even the "proper ones" can be very dangerous at times" or "amanitas are not dangerous". Thats all its about. Who can or cant try what they want has fuck al lto do with me, unless you drive while doing it, and i never said anyone shouldnt try anything. BUt feel free to just plug the gaps as it were with whatever "probably fits". See number three.

you were not clear. as you constantly generalised all amanitas, no specification was made by you.

one phrase? so is it about finding these 'blanket statements' or not? and yr saying im pluging the gaps with whatever fits?

"i do not advise anyone to experiment consuming any kind of fungus without knowing what it is and what it can/can't do to you." ... am I right to take this as "yes indeedy they can be dangerous and just as much so as any other drug"? And can I also take this to mean that you have a clear opinion as to whether Amanita muscaria does or does not pose any risk of acute damage or death?

no, take is as; i do not advise anyone to experiment consuming any kind of fungus without knowing what it is and what it can/can't do to you. i said they can poison and possibly kill, MUSCARIAS that is, if not treated correctly before consumption, never said they can't be dangerous.

one day, I will offer an opinion that isnt the "party line" that all drugs are fantastic and any negative info about them MUST be propaganda and ignorance without the "open minded" shit being rammed down by throat. news flash... two people can take on the same information and experience and reach two different conclusions.

you've clearly taken my view the wrong way, why so defensive... PLEASE just ignore me next time... my reply was that you were arguing a static point as you were addressing all amanitas not the PSYCHOACTIVE AMANITAS, read muscaria/pantherina, i was trying to rectify the misnomers and generalised statements, for others that may have not known.

If it helps, I apologise and wholeheartedly agree that Amanitas are not dangerous. Eat all you want, theyre just fine! Not like the ganj... that shit can kill you in a couple days...
VM

what would've helped was well researched info on PSYCHOACTIVE AMANITAS and possibly a personal experience.

once again you are just using the genus name of amanitas, and yes probably if you took an average fatality index from all species of amanita you could ascertain that on a whole "they can kill you", but that is not what we are talking about, well it wasn't until now.

chill man... please, PLEASE do not bother replying... i really don't care about convincing you, i was just trying to help specify names, uses, effects...

peace x

Edited February 8, 2008 by husk

Vertmorpheus · February 8, 2008

Well maybe other people shutup on command in your presence, but I won't. Bummer, man. :shroomer: Just make sure YOU dont reply to THIS cos im so over it bla bla bla yes etc we get it.

Why so defensive? because from what i can work out youre trying to say that because other members of the genus are toxic, and i mentioned em, that it makes muscaria automatically non toxic, unless you say they are? oooooo kaayyy thheennn. Im not defensive. just out of practice dealing with people that dont know what theyre on about.

Mutant - "Moreover, amanitas not only do they have NO hangover, but on the contrary the bring out a pleasant afterglow tha day/days after when they're not mixed with something else, like alcohol f.e. and finally that they're not really dangerous, just very hard to work with, as a material."

Husk - "infact noone even wrote "amanitas are not dangerous" except for you just then so you've really brought up both problems!"

Husk - "i believe mutant may have said "anyway amanitas are not dangerous"

Husk - "i said they can poison and possibly kill, MUSCARIAS that is, if not treated correctly before consumption, never said they can't be dangerous."

Me - "Theyre dangerous, as a general rule"

So... youve got the rags with me for posting muscaria and general amanita cases...why exactly? If we agree n all? Why arent you telling mutant to be a touch more specific? And do you usually say one thing one minute then say the complete opposite the next and then act like its the other guy with something wrong with him? nice trick... kind of a conversational jekyll and hyde thing going on... arent you worried people will think youre a bit fucked in the head though?

Yeah.....it was me that said theyre not dangerous...what mutant said is theyre not REALLY dangerous... which is a pretty profound statement when talking about something that can have you on the shopping list for a new liver off the first attempt. I can't be stuffed talking to people that can't read, and who want to argue both sides of something, with someone that essentially agrees with them.

To counter that crap, I posted what I could find with no forwarning of having to do so... things starting with "Amanita"... and I probably didnt edit it quite as clearly as some would've...etc. Get over it. I stand by the opinion (along with most reputable mycologists, rather than Trak Dak tribe members) that if you want to speak generally, the whole genus is worth skipping, as even if you know what youre doing, you dont know how strong they are... and if theyre too strong, you can get really sick or die. Its hard to die from cubes, many have tried... they dont come with large doses of nerve toxins as standard.

Once again, pardon me for mentioning that Amanitas (even muscaria, whic wasnt specified in the post from mutant that started all this kefuffle, has since been categorised even by your holy self as dangerous) can be dangerous. Since its what you agree with n all anyway.

As for an example of drinking... If you think some teeniewankers really need to read my words about drinking a bottle of rum being relatively safe over an evening... which was brought up as an outside extreme example of drinking, in comparison to even a starting range dose of "amanita"... before thei dea of drinking contests, binging, landing themselves a stomach pumping and a crying mum n dad enters their heads... then I think you need to get out more. Either way, once asked about, I explained it as being what it is... an example of fairly extreme alcohol use that I can still be fairly sure wont kill me in a couple days (talking personally here... youseem to want the personal? here it is... look look...its a personal exp so its FACT..oh til its not the one you had in mind, that is) whereas I couldnt be so sure that possibly lethal mushrooms of unknown strength wouldnt kill me overnight. Once again, whats the harm?

Now remember, I don't want you replying Husk. You just sit tight there and keep it inside, as I'm not interested. (feelinthat respect,? that ethno inspired LUURRVVE?oo i can feel the plants talking thru us, cant you? all those drugs? just magic) Remember its a not a matter of anyone convincing anyone... anyone sensible wouldnt call em "not really dangerous"...and noone sensible would take exception to someone pointing out that they are.... just that maybe, JUST maybe, people can actually try something (and in case you missed it earlier with your on the blink literacy, yes I've tried em... oo no now I've broken some rules) and then decide against it on a personal basis... and take time out of their arvo to just try n clear up a matter that someone else had neatly glossed over, in such a way that it might lead the poorly informed into dangerous situations. Yep, you heard it here first. Hairball samples drugs, says no to more and doesnt shy away from mentioning downsides in druggy company... might be a lifestyle choice worth looking into... that and learning to read.

You want a personal experience that somehow qualifies you to make generalised remarks about what is n isnt "basically safe"? Try having kids. Then you can hug them. Any dickhead can eat just about anything and report an absence of death afterwards... doesnt make it "safe". And because I tried some fungus and didn't die, doesn't mean I can't say they're reasonably dangerous either. I had the distinct impression of havingsurvived a poisoning, rather than just been thru a spiritual event with no physical downsides at all. What having done BOTH somehow initiatory steps does is, equips me to do some rough mental maths and work out that say... a slide is more dangerous than a sandwich... despite the death of Mama Cas... only one can break your neck on the average day. Or that napalm is more of a worry to have around the house than say water...despite a lot of people drowning. And it also puts me in the position of deciding when I feel someone needs a lil reality injection, dare I say it... a warning... that maybe things are worth a second n third looks rather htan just declaring them "not really dangerous". Particularly when you know you are in an "area" frequented by a fair number of people that still think of themselves as someone elses child, rather than having to stress about what other people consider "just some fun man" themselves, on someone elses behalf.

But yeah, go for it, theyre not dangerous.. oh wait they are... but sos that... no wait..I meant... but didnt you say... make up your mind you old chook. Then use it to work out that we're essentially agreeing in almost every way i can think of. maybe theres some kind of extremely dangerous drugs like a cuppa tea or something that you could try to clear your mind.

Honestly... "how dare you point out that fire is hot after some dickhead has called it cold cos he can think of much hotter things than that ". :rolleyes:

VM

edity bit.. im still not convinced, but given you cant seem to decide what youre actually arguing about, thats hardly surprising. Remember, all amanitas are safe... or maybe therye dangerous... no wait some are safe and some are dangerous.. oh but the safe ones are dangerous too... but i dont have the right to mention that, and i lose 100 poinnts for mentioning other members of the genus that have similar qualities... lets just regard the fact that the dodgy chems in question are named after the one youre talking about eating... and that its all fairly well proven that eating too much can really land you in trouble... but yeah... i guess its too late to run in depth into my personal experience and the nattach a list of things saying why muscarias are pretty fucking dangerous too, in the scheme of things?

Edited February 8, 2008 by Vertmorpheus

husk · February 8, 2008

Well maybe other people shutup on command in your presence, but I won't. Bummer, man. Just make sure YOU dont reply to THIS cos im so over it bla bla bla yes etc we get it.
Why so defensive? because from what i can work out youre trying to say that because other members of the genus are toxic, and i mentioned em....

you never mention any species, re-read yr posts. you only ever said 'amanita' and you consistantly generalised most nearly everything about them

that it makes muscaria automatically non toxic, unless you say they are? oooooo kaayyy thheennn. Im not defensive. just out of practice dealing with people that dont know what theyre on about.

i SAID muscarias ARE toxic, i said when prepared in a well know way one can decrease the level of toxicity. once again if you had specified what u were talking about i would never had bothered to point out the species difference.

Mutant - "Moreover, amanitas not only do they have NO hangover, but on the contrary the bring out a pleasant afterglow tha day/days after when they're not mixed with something else, like alcohol f.e. and finally that they're not really dangerous, just very hard to work with, as a material."
Husk - "infact noone even wrote "amanitas are not dangerous" except for you just then so you've really brought up both problems!"

uh huh now this IS a fact!

Husk - "i believe mutant may have said "anyway amanitas are not dangerous" !".

hmmm conveniently left out of context there... you missed this: "because as i said many times before, his post regards PSYCHOACTIVE AMANITAS so he prolly isn't even considering other amanitas in his posts. i don't know ask him!"

Husk - "i said they can poison and possibly kill, MUSCARIAS that is, if not treated correctly before consumption, never said they can't be dangerous."
Me - "Theyre dangerous, as a general rule"

No, they CAN be dangerous as a general rule... you and this generalising!

So... youve got the rags with me for posting muscaria and general amanita cases...why exactly?

you posted this:

Amanita muscaria. Case 1: Idaho/Montana border, two adults and 2 adolescents picked mushrooms they believed to be Matsutakes. They cooked and ate several mushrooms from a mixed collection, of which one species was Amanita muscaria.

and this:

Amanita pantherina. Case 1: Idaho, five male and female adults, 42 to 74, picked what they had identified as "Shaggy Manes" but had a mixed collection of Amanita pantherina and a smaller blue-gray mushroom

and that's all you did ever post about PSYCHOACTIVE AMANITAS.

If we agree n all? Why arent you telling mutant to be a touch more specific?

we don't agree, hence the current situation. the topic was specific to psychoactive amanitas, no talk of others from the genus were even regarded until you started generalising.

And do you usually say one thing one minute then say the complete opposite the next and then act like its the other guy with something wrong with him? nice trick... kind of a conversational jekyll and hyde thing going on... arent you worried people will think youre a bit fucked in the head though?"

i never contradicted myself, please re-read my posts if this is what you believe. yr attack suggests that you may be experiencing a hyde type metamorphosis. no i'm not worried about ppl thinking i'm fucked in the head because i'm certain i never did/said nothing to suggest such a thing, such as call you names or insinuate untruths, the only reason i could is because you just hatefully brought it up for reasons i can not imagine why. really what is with this hostility? do you like attacking ppl?

Yeah.....it was me that said theyre not dangerous...what mutant said is theyre not REALLY dangerous... which is a pretty profound statement when talking about something that can have you on the shopping list for a new liver off the first attempt. I can't be stuffed talking to people that can't read, and who want to argue both sides of something, with someone that essentially agrees with them.

that is completely untrue, when did you ever say they're not dangerous?? please refer me to when this was written.

and where is this evidence of liver failure after a first dosing of properly prepared and identified amanita muscaria?

yeah fine to presume that in regards to phalliodes but that is not what we are talking about!

and no i don't esentialy agree with you at all. i find you exceedingly threatening and spiteful and quite frankly offended.

To counter that crap, I posted what I could find with no forwarning of having to do so... things starting with "Amanita"... and I probably didnt edit it quite as clearly as some would've...etc. Get over it. I stand by the opinion (along with most reputable mycologists, rather than Trak Dak tribe members) that if you want to speak generally, the whole genus is worth skipping, as even if you know what youre doing, you dont know how strong they are... and if theyre too strong, you can get really sick or die. Its hard to die from cubes, many have tried... they dont come with large doses of nerve toxins as standard.

yes but we don't want to speak generally here do we?

that's is my one and only bloody point! the topic reads (for the 20th time):PSYCHOACTIVE AMANITAS, yes?

would you not pull me up for throwing stories of methylated spirits and turps poisoning into a topic titled

CONSUMABLE LIQUORS?

husk · February 8, 2008

Once again, pardon me for mentioning that Amanitas (even muscaria, whic wasnt specified in the post from mutant that started all this kefuffle, has since been categorised even by your holy self as dangerous) can be dangerous. Since its what you agree with n all anyway.

why would you bother mentioning other species of amanitas in a post entitled psycoactive amanitas, specifically.

and why do you feel the need to offend me and call me names? do you enjoy this?

As for an example of drinking... If you think some teeniewankers really need to read my words about drinking a bottle of rum being relatively safe over an evening... which was brought up as an outside extreme example of drinking, in comparison to even a starting range dose of "amanita"... before thei dea of drinking contests, binging, landing themselves a stomach pumping and a crying mum n dad enters their heads... then I think you need to get out more. Either way, once asked about, I explained it as being what it is... an example of fairly extreme alcohol use that I can still be fairly sure wont kill me in a couple days (talking personally here... youseem to want the personal? here it is... look look...its a personal exp so its FACT..oh til its not the one you had in mind, that is) whereas I couldnt be so sure that possibly lethal mushrooms of unknown strength wouldnt kill me overnight. Once again, whats the harm?.

you brought up the possibility of this thread being misread or misinterpreted by the uninformed, again another reason i tried to clarify and help balance the discussion, but you don't sound overly concerned about these 'teeniewankers' now...so...

again you still only use the genus name amanita, yes exactly my point, you did compared drinking and entire bottle of rum with experimenting with psycoactive amanitas... again i ask why if not to wrongly assume that each action will have the same, or in the case of yr 'amanitas', worser outcome. it's pointless. outside extreme examples of alcohol binging and eating a mushroom are far from comparable.

Now remember, I don't want you replying Husk. You just sit tight there and keep it inside, as I'm not interested.

how old are you Vert? is this how you normally talk to ppl? i offered that so we wouldn't be at this point, so the now pointless argument could cease, but you seemed to have disregarded that and taken to belittling me and insulting me and...well you haven't even met me, does this seem fair or just to you?

(feelinthat respect,? that ethno inspired LUURRVVE?oo i can feel the plants talking thru us, cant you? all those drugs? just magic)?

so why are you here exactly? or maybe i should be asking myself that question... why are u ripping on plant communication dude, is that funny to you? i don't need to ingest drugs to feel the plants man, grown up.

i certainly feel no plants talking through you like this.

Remember its a not a matter of anyone convincing anyone... anyone sensible wouldnt call em "not really dangerous"...and noone sensible would take exception to someone pointing out that they are.... just that maybe, JUST maybe, people can actually try something (and in case you missed it earlier with your on the blink literacy, yes I've tried em... oo no now I've broken some rules) and then decide against it on a personal basis... and take time out of their arvo to just try n clear up a matter that someone else had neatly glossed over, in such a way that it might lead the poorly informed into dangerous situations. Yep, you heard it here first. Hairball samples drugs, says no to more and doesnt shy away from mentioning downsides in druggy company... might be a lifestyle choice worth looking into... that and learning to read.

when did you ever state that you've experimented with them? and if so why not specify which ones?

You want a personal experience that somehow qualifies you to make generalised remarks about what is n isnt "basically safe"? Try having kids. Then you can hug them.

man, what does yr child have to do with ANY of this. what, because you've had a kid it means you know what is dangerous and i don't. don't patronise me... i was a kid, fuck i am a kid! that's the most nonsense fucking argument i've ever heard.

we all have fucking kids dude! :lol: yeah except those 'teeniewankers' who wants them?

Any dickhead can eat just about anything and report an absence of death afterwards... doesnt make it "safe".

i never said safe so why invert it like you did? i said they can be poisonous and they could result in death if not treated properly before ingesting, that is with the PSYCHOACTIVE AMANITAS. yes the deadly ones will funnily enough probably kill you.

And because I tried some fungus and didn't die, doesn't mean I can't say they're reasonably dangerous either. I had the distinct impression of havingsurvived a poisoning, rather than just been thru a spiritual event with no physical downsides at all. What having done BOTH somehow initiatory steps does is, equips me to do some rough mental maths and work out that say... a slide is more dangerous than a sandwich... despite the death of Mama Cas... only one can break your neck on the average day. Or that napalm is more of a worry to have around the house than say water...despite a lot of people drowning. And it also puts me in the position of deciding when I feel someone needs a lil reality injection, dare I say it... a warning... that maybe things are worth a second n third looks rather htan just declaring them "not really dangerous". Particularly when you know you are in an "area" frequented by a fair number of people that still think of themselves as someone elses child, rather than having to stress about what other people consider "just some fun man" themselves, on someone elses behalf. ".

i never said they were not really dangerous either. where are you pretending to find this stuff? please refer to my last 5 posts if you are still confused about my statements regarding amanita muscaria.

But yeah, go for it, theyre not dangerous.. oh wait they are... but sos that... no wait..I meant... but didnt you say... make up your mind you old chook. Then use it to work out that we're essentially agreeing in almost every way i can think of. maybe theres some kind of extremely dangerous drugs like a cuppa tea or something that you could try to clear your mind.

no i don't agree with you Vert, i find myself very distant from you infact. not once did i ever stumble on my statements or contradict myself. i always and only said that PSYCHOACTIVE AMANITAS i.e amanita muscaria/pantherina can be poisonous and in some cases can be deadly if not prepared correctly, they will not destroy yr liver on the first go they are not equivalent to binge drinking. again why do feel the need to call me names?

Honestly... "how dare you point out that fire is hot after some dickhead has called it cold cos he can think of much hotter things than that ".
VM.

again i don't understand.

husk · February 8, 2008

edity bit.. im still not convinced, but given you cant seem to decide what youre actually arguing about, thats hardly surprising.

need i suggest reading my posts again if you believe i have stumbled on my words? and hmmm now it doesn't really seem to matter if i even could have because you've effectively offended and hurt me and i have absolutley no reason to even care about what you have to say about me, truthful or otherwise.

Remember, all amanitas are safe... or maybe therye dangerous... no wait some are safe and some are dangerous..

yes some are very dangerous and some less so as i said from the bloody beginning...don't worry i will remember!

oh but the safe ones are dangerous too... but i dont have the right to mention that, and i lose 100 poinnts for mentioning other members of the genus that have similar qualities... lets just regard the fact that the dodgy chems in question are named after the one youre talking about eating... and that its all fairly well proven that eating too much can really land you in trouble... but yeah... i guess its too late to run in depth into my personal experience and the nattach a list of things saying why muscarias are pretty fucking dangerous too, in the scheme of things?

no, that's where you are wrong, the substances in question are ibotenic acid and muscimol found in a.muscaria, recorded deaths are extermely minimal. if the ibotenic acid is successfully converted to muscimol and the advised dosage isn't exceed there factually isn't much to worry about accept for those freak accidents that do occur with many/any substance of such interest that usually pertain to existing bodily disfuctions or sbstance combination.

the substances that will most definately kill you are amatoxins and phallotoxins which destroy yr blood cells.

these being found in a. phalloides, a.virosa and a. verna and possibly some others but in differing combinations.

to me if one can identify a muscaria and a death cap and they wish to experiment with the muscaria i do not urge one to do so but i suggest in my experience and with evidence and literature that i can only take as fact, it will most likey not kill you, especially on first ingestion of small to moderate accurate and properly prepared portions.

that even in addition to that plenty of ppl in the northern hemisphere, most notably the Japanese eat muscarias, usually pickled with, to my knowledge no ill effect, especially not to that of alcohol abuse.

so in f**kn closing, amanita muscaria will most probably not destroy yr liver or kill you on first injestion BUT i am not f**kn condoning the use of it or the 100% "safety" of doing so.

shit... i'm off to bed.

Vert keep it up if u must but please keep in mind i find yr method and approach to 'discussing' this subject and our opinions as unnecessarily vindictive, if you don't care whatever...

peace x

Edited February 8, 2008 by husk

mutant · February 8, 2008

OK, there is a big misunderstanding here. I regard this forum a forum of relatively high level of users and knowledge. It was my mistake that I used the genus name Amanita in general. In all my previous posts I was refering to Amanita muscaria, a very distinct in appearance mushroom that fruits all over the world. See link for more A.muscaria on Wiki

Some Amanitas are deadly toxic with toxins for which no antidote exists to day... Vertmorpheus took in kind of.. personally. We can share his enthusiasm. And .. go on...

Amanitas is one of the most interesting genus of mushrooms. Why? They contain some of the deadliest [infact, THE deadliest] species in the world {Amanita phalloides AKA death cap LINK and other white-capped Amanitas}, some of the most tasteful {Amanita ceasarea - a european species, Amanita rubescens} and the infamous psychoactive Amanitas, Amanita muscaria being the most known for its beauty alone.

The last groups consists of the aforementioned Amanita muscaria, and also A.pantherina a brown species, similar but smaller, which has a few look-alikes like the edible A.spissa[raw toxic], and some other, more rare.

Except from A.ceasarea, which is eaten raw by many in salads or on it's own, all edible Amanitas are toxic raw and have to be parboiled or cooked properly before eaten. In general it is a genus of high toxicity. The dangerous species like {A.phalloides} toxins are not destroyd by heating of cooking. Liver damage is almost certain and death is propable.

but hey, talking about muscarias, mate they sell them in every fuckin e-shop in the world - except from Autralia and maybe Israel. Amanita muscaria's chemistry is now fully understood. There have been many mistakes in A.muscaria research. in the past. Unfortunately, people who haven't really studied a lot, might even replicate the mistakes of the past. I don't blame them. It's not a simple matter.

Amanita muscaria and , even more, Amanita pantheria [much more potent than A.muscaria] are indeed a difficult material to work with, with long-lived shamanic or other use and many contradictions for the researcher to stumble on.

PS: It's really very hard for someone to die off A.muscaria. But if ingested for food, especially pantherina, by mistake then the surprise is going to be great. Imagine yourself thinking you have been poisoned by mushrooms on a substance that has been said that virtually amplifyies the emotions. Not a great time, huh? ingesting too much, even knowing their power is also often unnerving. A.pantherina is extremely potent some times. I have found that it can be more than 4 times as potent as A.muscaria , unlike 2x that I have read on the net.

PS2: What the fuck is "kefuffle" ???

Edited February 8, 2008 by mutant

Vertmorpheus · February 9, 2008

Kerfuflle... what you get when someone picks someone up for trying to do the right thing, and then cracks a teary because the first person dared to try and explain themselves and asked "what the fuck is wrong with pointing out that some things are not entirely without danger?" esp when the person making the originating statement then comes back and says "na ya know, i should have been more specific".

The ibotenic to muscimol thing is reasonably well documented... unlikely to kill you, just that they can make you undergo emesis whilst not conscious... to me thats a worrying mix. That, and to the "newbie" hunter, I doubt they could reliably tell say A.franchetti growing in tannin rich soil from A.muscaria... or A.muscarua from A. muscaria var. formosa, with a couple days drying... and whilst the Fly may have been studied to hell n back by now, generally being rated as "shamanic wound fever at best" rather than lethal with proper prep... however I cant say the same has been done for any of the vague lookalikes... whereas theres very few things you could mistake for a blue staining black printing bell headed meanie hanging out in ccowshit on a mountainside. Drugs are fun, esp planty ones... and as Husk said, half the "fun" is in ntheir variable nature... but i dont want "variable" to have bugger all at its lowest end, and dialysis for the rest of your life at the other.

Its not quite as simple as being able to tell phalloides from muscaria...though its not a bad starting point! But lookin at em side by side in the wild theres no way youd confuse one for the other... more likely someone would think the deathcap was a "field mushroom"...hence why you hear about people eating a hundred of the fuckin thing. However if all some kid is looking for are white printing warted caps somewhere in the yellow-red spectrum... there are some reasonably poorly studied things that fit that description... most of the cause of my concern. I can ASSUME that an A.m.v. formosa would be "much the same" as a Fly, but then again, maybe its not.

I didnt mean to hurt you Husk, and feel genuinely bad if thats the case. Communications aint perfect, let alone around here. You strike me a decent type, and I admit I went off tap out of a vague sense of being accused of doing the wrong thing, when i was merely trying to reduce the chances of anyone having a shitty weekend, or losing a loved one.

Sorry for hurting your feelings.... as I said though it came down either "amanitas are not really dangerous" or "amanitas can be dangerous"... Id rather society tookt he latter approach. Theres plenty of magic and munchables out there without tangling with such a mofo genii... eg I don't bother trying to ID cono or inocybes, as if I get it wrong, the side effects can be disastrous.`Worry makes me get overpersonal at times, and youre very right... it shouldn't.

All would have been avoided with a lil attention to detail to start with.... whilst most of us here are bright enough to know what mutant was on about... as I saw it, it would be too easy for a newb to read his words as meaning "all amanitas listed as toxic are in fact just hallucinegnic with a fair body load"... the idea has occured to many of us reading myco guides that hmm well it lists these thoroughly enjoyable ones as "toxic"... I wonder about the other "toxic" ones... but its a dangerous line of thought.

Stupidly enough, to stop people hurting themselves I've hurt someone :unsure: somehow. The road to hell, and all that...

take care all, and Husk I apologise for being a wanker to you when you're essentially after the same thing as me anyway.

make of that what you will, just dont go having a shithouse weekend cos some hairball took exception with being taken exception to.

VM

incognito · February 9, 2008

Kerfuflle...

its kerpuffle smarty-pants :wink:

mutant · February 9, 2008

hey Vert, nice you see you're behaviour is stupid...

fuck man, in my universe saying that hunting for psilocybes is pretty safe, while hunting for Amanita muscaria can be dangerous is a stupid , misleading and DANGEROUS statement.

Even if the psilies are recognised safely [and not some Galerina is picked instead, or some of the countless poisonous LBMs over the world] they bare dangers, mental ones, like every psychoactive. I never suggested that anyone should ingest anything. And you can be sure that I don't do it in my real life either.

I am not really in protecting any 'name' of Amanitas , but the thing is you're not really into 'why am I writing this'? Arguing to protect the newbs, huh? Do you even believe some newb would go through your dense ramblings? You could say what you said with a few words. Too long posts for something you know nothing about!

If you're afraid of the effects of Amanitas muscaria , let it be, don't be the usual psychedelic believer dick suggesting we should be after the safe psilies [or any of the classical psychedelics for that matter] instead of going for the 'dangerous' and unknown Amanita muscaria.

Bullshit. Amanita muscaria CAN be dangerous, as well as every substance. Danger, is relative, though...

Yeah, people usually like psilies more, so what? I just gave some personal experience and facts on the mushrooms that the thread title suggests, and I have thoroughly studied and bioessayed.

The tendency to find name variations of the same species of mushrooms is often a mycologist's game regarding mostly fame and void ambitions. The physical evolution explains the variations and slight differences in every organism. Amanita muscaria, whatever the var. , more or less carries the psychoactive properties of Amanita muscaria, ibotenic acid and muscimol. And it's the one mushroom that is more easily ID'd. Of course, idiocy is unlimited, so someone could make a mistake.

PS: Can someone give me some reference / citation / site about the legal status of muscimol in Australia, so that the erowid data is updated?

Edited February 9, 2008 by mutant

Vertmorpheus · February 10, 2008

So if's I am getting this corrected, said you're problems having with my decisions personally, or writing stylised? no?

Please to be sending mine complete list of recommended conduct, to be more like perfect Jedi master. Also to be sending me list (I am too lazybones to be looking myself!) of proscribed personal opinions and beliefs, and tips about how to be being rid of pesky family and sense of priorities? Then I could to be being eating all drugs time with much fun and be right all times at even when wrong...especially when wrong!

Misleading more than so that saying "amanitas are not really dangerous" a which point by which definition youre own, was not correctofied?

I said blue meanies, not "psilies"...please to be using accurate quotings and not things in your head or ass. umption? some unlike, I can be using too specifics? yes? Not just saying I was "Psilocybe" so perhaps to be learning the reading. Or not? pickign meanies, is pretty safe... beyond psychic downsides which are to be having had from too much time in the work, yes? Or to be breaking up with the families? sometimes. that need not stating to anyone interested in the field whatsoever.... unlike blanket statement about an entire genus? To be confusing tiny brown funny smelling Galerina with tall skinny white bruising coprophilic culturally embedded specimens is to be a bit dumb? Dumb as thinking destroying angel, muscaria, perhapses.

I have mentioned already that I do recommend not the picking of "lbms" of any kind, and specifed that Ino and Conocybes are dicey things? maybe to be missing this.

Too long posts for somethings I know not a lots about , definitely! Which is why you since had to agree point me with and accept your failing owns? maybe? To be also finding know nothing post about Panaeolus subbalteatus from well met thread, or to have gone to extent of herbarium to properly and reliably ID muscaria var formosa and franchetti not googling like some? Or other many cases of "nice postedness Vert! good idea! fun to readings!PM of please tell me more, longarsed post not quite long enough?" If only smart enoug hto let sleeping dogs tell lies! Or enough smarts to recycle opinion of other member, to try make self feel bettered after reading opinion and getting chuckle after last time I said anything about you at all?

I am afraid of dying or getting very sick from any amanita ... so i don't them eat... you ask for reasons, I raesons gives. All sounds sound reasons too... to the extent that a personal decision and viewpoint needs justifying to lackwits that happily say, in short, clear, easily read posts, that "amanitas are not really dangerous".

If studying you ahve thoroughlied, then why the indecision about danger to the livers from your postings? are you to be knowing, or not to be knowing?

Some worldwide mushrooms, when examined in Australia, have been found to act atypically whether in growth habit n form, chemical makeup, taste, odour, exudates.. so saying that "any variety of muscara is muc hsame" is about the dumbest fuckin thing I've heard for quite a long time... other than the asseration that "they are not really dangerous". Unless you can actually post a ref that proves it beyond reasonable doubt?Would be saying like that all Nymphaea species and subspecies are beink the same, potency, which they are not? yes? Less or more, is one thing, when talking something fun and sleepiness... but when talking of possible dangerousness (first denied, then accepted, then accepted and prmoted as some kind of dig at truly yours?) of your own liver to be shitting out, perhaps to be making clear what is "fact" and what "opinions".

Perhapsing next times you could be embedding it in a post overly long, so that the newbs might not be finding it!

I'd could give you the links n ref you want, but as knowing nothing I am, I cannot... and having thorougly studied you have, you should be knowink alreadies? no? yes?

Perhaps to be taking your own allegations as seriousness as someones elses like me?

I quite like my writing style... yours shits me... since you bring it up.Have, you noticed, yet?

Newflash... Vert rants... to be we are sure having the John Edward telepathic in da house, no? Perhapsing you notice could that also Jono is sometimes to be cheeky (most clever behind it, more than some realise), Xipe is something funny, Torst can be dry and still funny, Devance tends to be a left of little centre? Amazingness! Also then, illegalbrain is grey bastard, pause not, and Sina is very smart and nice but sometimes grumpyness too from being very smart. Did you to be noticing? More amazingness. Too notice also that when agreed with or learned from, my posts are well recieved, but when controversial, the writing style comings up moreso then? mainly from ppl offended more than able to find true incorrectness?or just the combining of bad days. or from people that spend more time thinking about losing their face than finding their arse with both hands and a flashing light or acting like picked on phallus when called to task rather than fessing up to making dumbness statement in vague way to starting with? As thread did not included "defined list" of "PSYCHOACTIVE AMANITAS" it was assumed all would know wht was and wasnt?

Warning sign in dumb place or small writing better than no warning.

It's done, mutant. You said they werent really dangerous... took exception to me correcting that "fact"... only to then agree that it wasnt real bright but to then still jump up n down about it? get a hobby. Perhaps to be reading my other words in myco related threads about safety, certainty, study, and learning first Galerinas, Ino/Conocybe, Chlorophyllum and Amanita phalloides before taking other step ?

Perhapsing to be making up you're mind? yes? And not to be claiming to have studied thoroughly when you are incapable of finding basic legislation readily available online, and generally to be found elsewhere on this very forum? To be TFUSE? please? or just to be lazybones?

plus too, glory not to be having from pointing out the obvious as it is admitted freely or rubbing growns up nose in ability to accept failings and try to remedy them for the wellbeing and feelings of evidently sensible and sensitive, caring and interested individuals that Vert mistook for being personally attacking for lifestyle choices, then realised was overreacting, apologised and is still worrying about upsetedness of obviously nice personality? no, easier might be to call names and point fingers after the fact... in the tradition ancient of the Forums, in my understanding?

Also, big adult grown ups is not in habits of picking shit from other grown ups choice of words, just the pointings they are made? Especially in situations of differing internationalness or cultural backgroundings. Some being from backgrounds that understand things must be worded in many ways to reach many ears, and used to dealing with people that can filter and read/listen for the bits they need to know? Or to forget that and expect all to be you exactness? Or if I could also choose to be taking piss out of language skills and choices of you'res. ;) yes? no? Not all cultures revere economy with words... some would rather over than understateside, and others would be tending to worry that people would be missing points? question mark?

if you could please be posting links of place to be found "how to grow upping" so that others may benefit? To be learning to accept own mistakes when pointed out is good, to be just having tantrum about persons having gall to point out you are posting opinion as fact, not so goodness. To be perhapsing keeping stupidity to self in future, as it would seem to be virulent strain?

VM

Ps sorry if posting be too long or hard to be reading, stupid I am all the times, Learn much from newfound Jedi friend I could... hope to be above criticism of peers one day too! but he not want to play cos of being upset for saying with much clarity a rather stupid thing to start with..especially for a member last remembered for jumping up and down about others here not posting refs and working with definite binomials? Not digging the thread I am out now... you should though remember! if not eat drugs, make all better. Husks feelings sorry I was to be hurting at all, yours I would happy to be standing on and excrementing, yes, as Husk is acting out of love not egotesticalness and trying to keep up with bigger kids. :rolleyes:

Edited February 10, 2008 by Vertmorpheus

mutant · February 10, 2008

So if's I am getting this corrected, said you're problems having with my decisions personally, or writing stylised? no?

no problems with your decisions, stylish writing, obligations, time schedule.

it's just... I am never wrong.. I can never be wrong... even when I clearly admit my mistake - well, especially then..

Just making my point with fewer words than yours, mate, you already know that. Different style, no?

It's done, mutant. You said they werent really dangerous...

oh fuck! and... what do I do now... how do I make up for this? Shit! Now, what about my name in this forum and the global comunity... What about that cactus seedling Jono promised? I am very sad the aroma of your exrements on my feeling is very unpleasant... almost like the side-effects of psychoactive amanitas] My whole future is destroyd maaaaaaaaan

What about that link for Erowid? Can someone give an official reference for muscimol law in Australia? [you were right on this one... a get a bit lazy sometimes, well most of the times, especially if dealing with stuff [law] I don't really get passionate about... say.. like you and amanitas ] ..

Here I found that it's illegal , now you HAVE to tell me that link, or else I will tell everyone the chickenshit you are and are afraid to have a little fun on freshly harvested Amanita phalloides... Come on! Hawk from SomaShamans has done it , after he eliminated the toxins with his soma mumbo-jumbo ceremony

Edited February 10, 2008 by mutant

Vertmorpheus · February 10, 2008

Clap. Clap. Clap.

Wouldn't worry about your name... these things tend to clear up with the proper treatment.

VM

Edited February 10, 2008 by Vertmorpheus

incognito · February 10, 2008

holy shitman im fuking broke, as soon as i have some money ill send ur free cactus to u okay.

ive got half away, just waitin for the next 50 buks i can spare to send the rest.....

its from lack of currency, not from lack of good will.

forgive me, u will get it as soon as i can afford to send it.

btw u havent paid for anything man so u will just hafta rely on my good will, , i.e giving them away, like i said.

i definately dont dislike u, why thehell are uworried about image man? eat some shrooms. i just dont know why u had to bring me into this??

i only got involved as vert needs a little help with his spelling, as i am an interleckshual. capeche?

think happy thoughts man and ur cactus will be there all the way over in greece.

Edited February 10, 2008 by jono

reshroomED · February 10, 2008

See Willaim Rubel's page on Amanitas for information on preparation, ingestion, and recipes.

Also, an old post from usenet:

Amanita Muscaria - A New Outlook
Man, I love new insights; yet take full responsability for what you do with them [may take a few edits to get the spacing formatting right]

Cut from bump of DD who posted:

Cut from a post by a salvia list member.

I've tried it both the 'typical' way ala Hippies exp. above and the way this guy recommends. I'd say he knows what he's talking about as far as dosage goes. The rest is up for grabs, but I don't feel like editing it out.

"As usually used by people in this country, large quantities of the rather nauseating dry mushrooms are imbibed, the person gets sick for a while, then has a rather fearful and scary trip. Thus, the rather grim reputation of muscaria gets perpetuated. People who gather it from the wild and eat it by mistake usually get hysterical when they feel the onset of nausea and psychic effects and have a royal freak-out (it starts with, "I've eaten a poisonous mushroom! I'm going to die!!!"). This also perpetuates the dark repute of what is probably Mother Nature's finest winter tonic and a wonderfully benign life-enhancer WHEN PROPERLY USED! Why do I seem to be the only modern person who has ever thought of using this stuff in a safe and sane manner? People are less original than they think, and ancient tribal taboos are more potent than supposedly sophisticated modern academics realise...

I have used Amanita muscaria continuously for several months at a time, and I think it is a real health-enhancer when correctly used. The key factor is dosage.

Basically, use no more than 1 to 2 tablespoons at a time, and no more than about half a cup in a day. If muscaria agrees with you, you can use it every day if you like throughout the cooler months of the year. I think it is too warming for the hot days of summer, but fine the rest of the year, and it can really help you to stand up to winter cold.

The first problem is supply. There are sources for the dried mushroom and "extracts", but they are rather questionable and extremely expensive and I don't recommend them at all. You should gather this mushroom from the wild when it is in season. You can ask your local mushroomering club (unlike, say---morels, they won't be secretive about sources of A. muscaria unless they think they are protecting you from suicide), or consult books or a specialist in the regional mycology at your local university, but be prepared to do some research. It is found throughout the country in forested areas, and while the season is short, the mushroom often fruits in great abundance, and you can easily gather a year's supply. In some areas there are two seasons, one in summer and the other in the fall. If you have a choice, gather the summer mushrooms as there is evidence that they are more potent and have less physical side effects.

Fortunately, there is nothing really dangerous that looks like this most distinctive of all mushrooms, but in most of the Eastern U.S., Fly Mushroom is golden rather than red in color,(this kind is called Amanita muscaria formosa) and you need to be more careful. Trust me, it is well worth the trouble to research this mushroom to be able to gather it safely! Don't be too open about what you are up to, as people are very apt to freak out if you tell them. A. muscaria is not in any way a controlled substance however.

Beware of what you read from the "authorities" on the effects of this mushroom. An absolutely INCREDIBLE amount of misinformation has been printed about Amanita muscaria, and I probably know as much about its medicinal effects as anyone in the country.

Once you have your mushrooms, you need to think about preservation. The traditional way to do this is the one you should avoid, namely drying. It gives the mushrooms a bitter, metallic taste and makes them rather nauseating. You can keep them in the fridge a few days wrapped in paper towels provided you cut off the usually maggot-containing stalk. You can mince the shrooms with garlic and pickle in vinegar and salt, preserved in the fridge (a spoonful or so is great in a salad dressing). To keep longer, dip the mushrooms in brandy (or rum, or whatever spirit you like...) and freeze them. You must include a preservative when freezing or the mushrooms will spoil even while frozen. You can also sautee the mushrooms in olive oil or butter and freeze cooked, if you want to avoid alcohol.

These mushrooms have an absolutely delicious taste when properly prepared, and are one of the outstanding gourmet fungi of the world. The intensity of the flavor seems to have some correlation with the potency, so you can get an idea of the quality of the raw mushrooms by tasting a little bit. If the mushroom is strong, the meaty flavor will fill your whole mouth. Amanita muscaria seems to especially favor rich French sauces and hearty Italian ones. It can really enhance the flavor of meat dishes, even in amounts as small as a teaspoon or two, and I have used it in this way as a flavor enhancer. It is far finer than MSG. For some reason, it does not seem to go well with chile or Mexican dishes. It is also excellent in omelets and scrambled eggs. One of my favorite ways to prepare it is to sautee it with minced shallots in butter, then add a little sour cream and salt and pepper. Served over a slice of toasted French bread, it is simply wonderful! It is also superb in pastas.

Please remember not to be beguiled by the wonderful flavor and overindulge. There is a record of a man eating a hundred mushrooms at a meal and soon after going into a coma. They were able to save his life, though I honestly don't know how after such an insane overdose. Keep everybody's total intake to no more than 1 to 2 tablespoons per person. Eaten at breakfast, amanita will make everybody cheerful and energetic. Consumed in a fine dinner in the evening with a good wine, it will make people happy, talkative, sociable and relaxed. I have never seen its equal as an overall social mood-enhancer, and despite using it on many occasions, I have never had anyone report a negative experience. The only complaint I have received is from people who say they feel nothing, but even these become noticeably more cheerful and talkative.

My mother sometimes puts a little in my stepfather's dinner to keep him awake instead of falling asleep immediately after eating. Keep it away from pets, especially cats who are lethally sensitive to it. I feel it should be kept from children too, especially small ones. We both like to include some in breakfast when we need extra energy for the day.

The basic value of muscaria, besides being a delightful tonic, is in dealing with seasonal and weather related depressive conditions. It really helped me to get through my first real winter in Flagstaff (we had twenty feet of snow and the temperature got down as far as 25 below zero) after a lifetime of living in the desert. I would wake up on a grim, iron-gray morning wanting to spend the day hiding under the blankets, feeling stiff and depressed and chilled to the bone. I would trudge down to the kitchen and have a cup of coffee, then cut off two tablespoons of frozen muscaria from a package in the freezer and sautee it in a little butter. I scrambled it with eggs and cheese, and enjoyed the rich flavor. Within 15 minutes I would feel a surge of energy and cheerfulness. I became toasty warm and envigorated.

The morning would look beautifully pearly-gray, and I anticipated all the things I was going to happily do. I used A. muscaria daily throughout the cold winter months and it wonderfully enhanced my winter-hardiness. It really got me through the acclimatization process. When muscaria works well, it puts a subtle tension in your muscles and makes you want to go out and do something. I am prone to seasonal affective disorder, but muscaria completely counteracts that. It even made Christmas a genuinely happy occasion. For the first time, I experienced the holidays without a hint of depression. If I sound a little bit in love with the stuff, you are correct.

The summers have been too dry recently for muscaria, but I hope we get lucky this year and I can store some up.

During the early fall, before it got cold and when I had large quantities of fresh mushrooms, I experimented with larger doses (but no more than 1 cup total in a day). With 4 tablespoons at a meal, I often had a little nausea, and would either get drowsy or become hyper and speedy. In the latter case, I often became hyperaware, with a distinct feeling of the heebie-jeebies, like you get when you sleep in an old house and can hear every crack and creak. Both this and the nausea would wear off in half an hour. If I continued such doses throughout the day, I felt a pleasant but distinct sense of intoxication and an oddly detached feeling like being wrapped in a soft fuzzy blanket. By nightfall, I would have rather pretty closed-eye visuals of what looked like jewel-encrusted objects. I would go out into the nearby woods to meditate at night. The darkness was deep and velvety and welcoming and house lights were supernally luminous and beautiful. In meditation, I felt wonderfully expanded and immersed in a blissful ocean of quiet yet profound peace and joyfulness.

I have read the 9th Book of the Rig Veda (the one with the Soma Hymns) under the full influence of Amanita muscaria and I am absolutely convinced that it really is the Sacred Soma of Ancient India; it was remarkably easy to identify the sentiments the authors expressed with what I, myself, was feeling. I don't think anything else would have the same effect, certainly not Syrian Rue (completely non-euphoric) or psilocybe (physically gruelling if you attempt extended use). Two things the ancient poets mentioned that I also found true was that Soma gave you deep, restful, healing sleep when you were ill, and it banished fearfulness and gave courage without also banishing your common sense.

The ancient poems clearly describe using Soma for multiple times per day (Vedic Law allowed you to use it three times in one day) and taking it daily for extended periods as a tonic and medicine, just as I had done. Such usage would be SERIOUSLY harmful and counterproductive if you tried doing it with psilocybe mushrooms!

The courage thing matters too. I am somewhat prone to shyness and social phobia, but not with A. muscaria. If I ever try parachuting, I suspect that the only way I would be able to get myself to jump out of the airplane that first time would be to use a little muscaria before-hand. Perhaps it could be useful in dealing with phobias and shyness. The ancient poems certainly suggest that.

I didn't use such high doses again after winter started, but I experimented with abruptly ceasing use temporarily after that period to test for addiction potential. I liked it so much that I was a little concerned about this. It took 3 days to completely come down after extended use of muscaria, but there were no withdrawal effects and no craving. I had the same experience when I ran out of my frozen mushrooms the following spring. I think it is reasonably safe in that regard. The Siberian natives often used muscaria rather abusively in the winter with some signs of physical harmful effects (very similar to those associated with kava kava addiction), but this reflected the horrendous winters they had to endure and the lack of any alternatives. The natives say that the potential harm of muscaria was trivial compared to the harmfulness of the Russian vodka which replaced it. They also used it as a medicine to give restful sleep to the seriously ill and as a stimulating tonic for hard work in the winter. I and a friend have confirmed this winter tonic effect. The potency is increased if you combine it with Oriental Red Ginseng; such a combination can give great endurance and cold-resistance. On the other hand, I did not find muscaria particularly helpful by itself in straight depression; it is primarily meant for seasonal and weather-related depressive conditions and possibly shyness and phobias. A wonderful gift from Sweet Mother Gaia!

In animal experiments, muscaria had the ability to potentiate tranquilizers, sedatives, narcotics and other pharamaceuticals that effect the central nervous system, and should probably not be used with potent examples of these agents (I had no problems with OTC medicines or Tylenol#3 with codeine, however). It can also increase muscle tone (mild overdoses cause noticeable twitching) and should be used cautiously in people with back or orthopedic problems. In small doses, the active ingredients show anticonvulsant and antispasmodic effects, but the opposite is true with large doses, so it should probably not be used by epileptics, especially those requiring medication. It also has very perceptable appetite-suppressing effects (far stronger than amphetamines in animal experiments), which may be a good thing or a bad thing depending on the situation. I have used it for weight control. I find that a fairly small amount of amanita-laced food completely satisfies the appetite and makes you more physically active to boot, so it may have potential here...

Anyway, don't take my word for it, explore this wonderful fungus for yourself, just don't overindulge! I have never used it in seriously entheogenic doses, I found it far too spooky and unnerving long before I got to that point, but you can read vivid accounts in various "trip reports" available on the web. Most people who have used it in such large doses tend to become afraid of it and avoid it, so such usage is an entirely different matter than the uses I have described here. I can't help you with that."

ed

Edited February 10, 2008 by reshroomED

XipeTotec · February 10, 2008

See Willaim Rubel's page on Amanitas for information on preparation, ingestion, and recipes.
Also, an old post from usenet:

ed

thanks for the interesting link

incognito · February 10, 2008

i can pass on the local of avery productive area for producing amanita muscaria in central west n.s.w. even better if ur into golfing u can combine the two(grows along the fairways under the old conifers). so plentiful school kids kick em aroundon the way to school when they are out.

i particularly liked this one vert? im wondering how many glasses of shiraz could produce something as classic as this, im still not sure what it means. please dont describe. i quite like the mystery of it. your nuts.

quote vert: or acting like picked on phallus when called to task

teehee

Vertmorpheus · February 11, 2008

yeah i can recommend a few good spots for the yellow ones, but theyre somewhat near desirable wattles, so I better not haha.

I'd like tothanks my parents, Jesus, and Jono for their invaluable help and support!

Not quite shiraz, no... but a few letters in common. Wanna buy a vowel?

VM

husk · February 11, 2008

hey i'd just like to apologise to Vert and the board for my part in killing this thread.

i hold nothing against you Vert, i have been ill and was having a shitty week being housebound, i should have been delivering my responses in a more neutral fashion and i know i am as much to blame for this silly argument.

i will endevour, whole heartedly, to do my part in making this forum more constructive and helpful from now on.

i'm blasting some Floyd for you now Vert so i hope you can feel it man.

peace ppl x

:worship:

Edited February 11, 2008 by husk

incognito · February 11, 2008

sherry?

mutant · February 11, 2008

holy shitman im fuking broke, as soon as i have some money ill send ur free cactus to u okay.
ive got half away, just waitin for the next 50 buks i can spare to send the rest.....

its from lack of currency, not from lack of good will.

forgive me, u will get it as soon as i can afford to send it.

btw u havent paid for anything man so u will just hafta rely on my good will, , i.e giving them away, like i said.

i definately dont dislike u, why thehell are uworried about image man? eat some shrooms. i just dont know why u had to bring me into this??

i only got involved as vert needs a little help with his spelling, as i am an interleckshual. capeche?

think happy thoughts man and ur cactus will be there all the way over in greece.

Shit, mate, I am pretty sure that it's pretty obvious my last post was ironic/sarcastic. I just tried to ramble a bit, it seems to work around here, and it worked for you anyway ;) No worries. I didn't pay, sure, you offered ;)

I don't give a damn about images. I enjoy entering a forum and provoke people a bit just to see what psychedelic theists are on to, and spot the ones who are gonna be offended and question their psychedelic beliefs. Provokativ manners make it a lot faster some times...

No hurry for the cactus. I am currently building a structure for my vines to be able to climb on my house's roof, sowing new seeds, arranging plants in pots etc.

===============

TO THE POINT:

Hey,

reshroomED,

where did you find that 'old post from usenet' ? I think I have read this guys opinions on Amanita mucaria twice more, once in Erowid, once in some guy's post in E-dot . I am trying to spot this guy for some time!

Nice link also about that lady that cooks Amanitas and also points out that the Amanita family has some of the most delicious edible mushrooms - but I doubt that muscaria taste will be any worth it after 2 or 3 boilings... it IS delicious , but if you wash it away.... you never know anyway...

Vertmorpheus · February 11, 2008

I do the same thing in a few other places... old folks homes, kids hospitals, churches... always very revealing of their actual natures to wander in and say something like "I have a bomb" or "everyone out, theres a dangerous gas leak!". Never fails to amuse :lol: other goodies include calling people sluts for being in family planning clinics, nerds for being in libraries, and godless consumerists for being in shopping centres. Whats the good in being alive if you don't offend people as often as possible? Very educational! Certainly easier than building quality relationships and having a basic level of respect, thats for sure. <veryjokingjokingjoking> <please take with 9 grains of salt>

I raed something awhile back about some Japanese chefs n home cooks using pickled Muscarias as a flavour enhancer, meant to be 20 times more potent than MSG? Something like that. I now know why Doritos are so addictive.

Also found a very vague and unprofessional personal opinion/ref re: muscaria var. formosa (guersii) being found to be significantly less potent than A. muscaria... dunno if thats genetic, climatic, or just a personal perception though. Something else about start of season being more entertaining than end of season which is meant to be much more taxing? Something else from MS Smith about heatin em in saucepans and drinking the juice... ingenious people around!

I'm also wondering why the Muscarias are typically looked for in cold seasons and pine forests down south... when the formosa/guersii I find are typically a warm muggy summertime thing, found under flooded gums and hickory wattles, verging on ti tree flood zones... the best patch is around a tree that has been hit by lightning a few times, and in general they seem to really like fairly compacted deco granitic soils with other fungi kicking around... LBMS and Clitocybes in particular... theres some debate as to whether theyre the same thing as the straight Flys, or something a lil different... more confusing when they fruit at opposite ends of the climatic spectrum. Weirdness.

I'd be curious to know how the average "traditional Siberian" (any left?) would feel about Psilocybes... or why so many accounts of usage come from there , when the Fly's are found more or less worldwide? Questions, questions...

I really need some labrats.Or a heap of tame flies.

VM

mutant · February 11, 2008

You are doing OK, Vert, keep it up!

1) var. formosa is indeed supposed to be less potent.

2) there is also some evidence that the samples earlier in the season, f.e. summer {august usually} are prefered, propably due to potency as well. This of course is very generic as potency varies according to many factors anyway. The muscarias in my area [south greece] fruit in October-November - very seldom is there a summer fruiting], but they don't seem to induce any muscarinic [muscarine] effects at all. I have read in some lycaeum article that the automn specimens have more muscarine-like efects, but europeans seem to be lucky on that. Any way, muscarias seem to be quite 'easy' mushroon, so it will grow in various habitats.

It really takes some good research to form some kind of opinion, but, hey, some things are quite clearer if you try to test this guy's [in the huge quote] ideas. I had reached the same conclusions before reading his opinions, just because because I was very careful and worked my way up.

===================

I'd be curious to know how the average "traditional Siberian" (any left?) would feel about Psilocybes... or why so many accounts of usage come from there , when the Fly's are found more or less worldwide? Questions, questions...

Now you're talking man! Some times less is more! This questions cannot really be touched by 'science' or any 'objective' form of investigation, but I am trying to answer [or play with, if you like] these questions myself. That is, I don't limit my thoughts in "Amanitas VS Psilo-shrooms".

My train of thought also includes various concepts. The majority thing isn't really so important for me as is what kind of people prefer the so called classic psychdelics to other psychdelics as dissociatives { I mean, yeah, they're more, but WHY? - is it only that 'classics' they're more enjoyable and visual} ?

Note that I place all classics [ergolines, phenethylamines and tryptamines] in the same class , and we can accept the other class having Salvia divinorum, ketamine, A.muscaria and other dissociatives. Better like that , no?

Link to the thread subject: Note that the above mentioned quote and also my own experience do not involve really dissociative experiences [with amanitas, that is], although there is some slight such character, especially arriving at a MID dose. My last experience with Amanitas which was my first bioessay of Amanita pantherina was a MID dose and in some point [it lasted about one minute or something] it reminded me of salvia space [yes, Salvia divinorum is also legal in Greece].

Well, you will find that for some people the classics are not so enjoyable always, or that they're somewhat prissy and fragile and sensitive experiences [regardless of the rewarding character they usually have and the characteristic extatic feelings and sensations they evoke].

The concept of fear and uneasiness felt by some is very varied and important as well. Interestingly enough, you might notice that many 'classics' enthusiasts are put off, scared, unnerved by dissociatives like salvia, and even from short-acting tryptamines smoking.

So to [over] simplify and conclude, there seem to be characteristics in character / personality of people that maybe cause the preferance to the one or other class - or, less clumpsy said, maybe there is something that makes each class more friendly to certain people for some reasons... What I am searching is the reasons, not that they are necessarily there, just beacuse I search for them!

The matter is more psychoanalytic [my cup of tea], philosophical, etc. This realm is no place for certainties, but mostly hypothesis, and yeah, it demand some objective and clear thought....

Any opinions?? [we're going a little off topic or is it just my impression?]

PS: BTW, for me, A.muscaria [and pantherina] are indeed flavor enhancers. I have read of others considering them as appetite supressors, while I have found the opposite. In any case, they surely effect the appetite/

Edited February 11, 2008 by mutant

Vertmorpheus · February 11, 2008

Sorry husk, I missed that post before... no worries bud.

Nice fishbowl by the way.

edity bit.. I didn't save my PM in response, feel welcome to post it here if you think it helpful.

No war is so terrible that peace is not a solution.

________________________________________________________________________________________

yes, I am doing well. Thankyou.

For a DSPS afflicted Tourettes "survivor" with "severe" hypergraphia / lexia.

I like to think most of my friends would rather I "breath freely" than "choke and itch".

Especially when I don't have a choice.

A deaf man could hear the chains on my fingertips drag on the keyboard.

Do they sound nice?

Is anyone happier when I feel like a rootbound plant growing under a stone?

I try not to hold unchosen things against people.

VM

ps I'm not coprolalic, and tics aren't a hassle as long as I say every word I need off the back of the one breath. Fucker of a combination when in company of the less expressive... or when you have to exist in a society where only "crazy" people rant... unless they're powerful, then they're orators of note. Long as someone else is more comfortable hey.

Edited February 11, 2008 by Vertmorpheus

PSYCHOACTIVE AMANITAS

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