89 replies to this topic

[Psylo]

Jabez has been taken off my ignore list, because this thread makes no sense. As popular as ever, hey mate

I would also like to see some evidence of anthropological findings, or at the very least a link to indigenous folklore in order to add weight to some previous assertions. What I suspect is that while there might be evidence to suggest the usage of typtamine-bearing species, I'm wondering how widespread the practice was for them to use such plants specifically for entheogenic purposes, and believe that some tribal groups happened to hold this plant in high regard (ie sacred) for reasons unconnected to the DMT. It may have been deemed good for a certain type of fire fuel, a good timberstick for hunting tools or even a choice tree to make a lean-to from its parts.

[brickLaya]

i think its silly to assume that the aboriginals weren't using psychedelics just because we can't find evidence of it today though. aboriginal culture is many thousands of years old and i think it quite likely that they would have at some point discovered DMT and other psychedelics one way or another... however i can't be sure as i did not live in those times. but hey, look at the art.. the stories of dreamtime.. kinda speaks for itself in my opinion. compare aboriginal art for example with that of ayahuasca art by artists such as the great Pablo Amaringo. Also, aboriginal people hold the great rainbow serpent in high regard, and the serpent was/is highly regarded in amazonian cuture too and this is strongly connected to visionary experience. there are some really interesting paralells in aboriginal dreamtime stories and those of the amazonians

smoking phleb leaves does produce mild hallucinogenic effects for example, and i find it hard to believe we were the first to discover those effects and work with them.

c'mon guys lets get some love going here

[planthelper]

Planthelper, Can you please explain to me how you know for a fact what the Victorian aboriginals did in secret ceremonies, when we don't even have complete records on what plants they lived off or exactly how the lived in general? I mean come on! Just cause you say they did doesn't make it fact!

don't put words in my mouth, which i never said.
i said,"we know as a fact, that the natives use acacia pyllodes in smoking ceremonies"!!!

nothing, about victoria, and nothing about secret!!!

why we know, that's a fact is, because they still do, smoking ceremonies, even now.
i never said, they did/ or do, use dmt acacias for this.

don't add words to my replies, again, because it steals my time, thank you.

[MORG]

c'mon guys lets get some love going here

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence" - Chris Hitchens.

Fair enough we can have a discussion, but lets remain cognizant of the fact that some people will always be more sceptical than others.

I'd love to know if indigenous Australians used DMT, but post-colonial wishful thinking and pontification sounds like a desperate attempt to create a new age shamanistic mythology that we wish we had. Further, I find it a bit disrespectful that we would try and jam our own culturally desirable (and ultimately synthetic) indigenous history where it might not be welcome. Maybe we should let them tell the few stories they have left, instead of filling the voids colonialism created with whatever we might wish was true.

[folias]

Interesting to read this thread after six years.

Since then, well, I've heard a lot more from different people all over Australia.

I've encountered two caucasion people who have been given to smoke what sounds like some sort of shredded root bark, by aboriginal elders - one from Sydney and one from WA. The word Acacia or Wattle wasn't used or told to them at all, but they described to me very psychoactive effects lasting around the same amount of time as a typical DMT experience.

Also, I met an old guy from up Weipa way, in far north queensland. I asked him about the sacred use of wattles up there, as I had heard the sap was used. And he told me, "put it this way, if you have sacred traditional knowledge of something, why would you just willy nilly tell everyone about it?"

Oh, and I met another aboriginal man, and after I did a bit of name dropping, he told me had taken Acacia in a ceremonial context on top of a mountain, and described what sounded like an initiation experience. He told me that the reason that these ceremonies only occur at certain times of the year, is that the plants that activate the wattle are only good to use at certain times of the year.

The anecdotal evidence for me, was overwhelming in 2003, (this thread was started in 2006) and at this point, well, I take it for granted that aboriginal people took Acacia preparations, because to be honest, too many people (some I knew well) have told me that they have taken powerful psychoactive preparations given to them by aboriginals.


Julian.

[SunChaser]

Yeah, sorry about wasting your time planthelper, I'm sure your very busy. I thought you said phelbs phyllodes for some weird reason, to much sun maybe.

But I still don't think that has any relevance to evidence of aboriginals consuming acacias for it's psychedelic properties. I mean acacias are the most common species of plant in Australia after eucalyptus and of course we know that some species of acacia were very significant to aboriginals for many different reasons.

I mean the aboriginals used the gum from various acacia species as a staple food. In fact, apparently victorian aboriginals actually 'owned' individual wattle trees. Which is a concept a lot of people think was unknown to aboriginals.

Aboriginal even collected the edible seeds of the famous species A.longifolia.

Infact, A. aneura was one of the most important plants to the aboriginals of central Australia, since it produces abundant edible seed & gum and also produces the mulga apple, which was prized by aboriginals. Several mistletoe parasite mulga, which aboriginals ate, the honeypot ant usually builds there nest under mugla as well, which aboriginals dug for. The timber for mulga was also incredibly important for tools.

I don't agree that aboriginal art is similar to DMT art either, not one little bit. All the rock galleries I saw in northern Australia, simply seemed like a very artistic representation of there environment to me.

I think to many people are looking at this from a westerner perspective. I mean we take hallucinogens to gain a connection to our environment, or to produces a sense of purpose. Aboriginals did not need to do this, since there connection to the environment and land was already intimate and there sense of purpose was clear. So I personally think hallucinogens would have probably had more of a toxic effect to people of that frame of mind. 

Peace

EDITED: petty comment.

Edited by jabez, 16 February 2012 - 08:40 PM.

[folias]

Aboriginals did not need to do this, since there connection to the environment and land was already intimate and there sense of purpose was clear. So I personally think hallucinogens would have probably had more of a toxic effect to people of that frame of mind.

What this aboriginal told me about his experiences much a very specific experience, which it sounds like all who are initiated experience. Something MUCH deeper than what most people experience with Ayahuasca or even smoked DMT.

Don't forget that aboriginal people were known to "fly", they were into sorcery, telepathy is well reported among aboriginal people.


None of this is toxic to me, and I think is actually is pretty cool.

[SunChaser]

lol, When I saw these Mimi spirits at a rock gallery in kakadu, I thought of extraterrestrials.

http://photos-c.ak.f...0491_n.jpg?dl=1

http://en.m.wikipedi.../Mimi_(folklore)

Mimis are fairy-like beings of Arnhem Land in the folklore of the Indigenous Australians of northern Australia. They are described as having extremely thin and elongated bodies, so thin as to be in danger of breaking in case of a high wind. To avoid this, they usually spend most of their time living in rock crevices. They are said to have taught the Aborigines of Australia how to hunt, prepare kangaroo meat and use fire. They are like humans but they live in a different dimension. They were depicted during the freshwater period (1200 kya).

Peace

[phyllode]

Psylo Dread wrote

I would also like to see some evidence of anthropological findings, or at the very least a link to indigenous folklore in order to add weight to some previous assertions. What I suspect is that while there might be evidence to suggest the usage of typtamine-bearing species, I'm wondering how widespread the practice was for them to use such plants specifically for entheogenic purposes, and believe that some tribal groups happened to hold this plant in high regard (ie sacred) for reasons unconnected to the DMT. It may have been deemed good for a certain type of fire fuel, a good timberstick for hunting tools or even a choice tree to make a lean-to from its parts.

Anyone who has actually spoken to a senior indigenous person (who speaks language, holds law etc.) and asks will gather the level of sacredness of these specific acacias.
The synchronicity of where some of these trees grow is incredible, but giving this information would endanger them.
Yes, acacias are multi use. Food, fuel etc.
But the whole thing about indigenous Initiation, Ceremony etc. is that it is highly secret. This is why no anthropological works will probably ever be published pertaining to 'shamanic 'practices as, once the trust of a community is gained, most do not want to break that trust. Oral tradition.

Indigenous peoples barely told anything to white writers regarding ethnobotanic use of plants until fairly recently, such as Peter Latz' "Bushfires and Bushtucker" about a decade ago, and recent co-operative phytochemical work with Macquarie University. Northern NSW indigenous peoples have now come forth with many unrecorded (or dismissed as other use) medicinal plants on the condition that they can lodge the patent applications. In both examples any plant deemed Ceremonial is off limits for further discussion.

The Australian aboriginal people were completely capable of working out various methods of attaining ''entheogenic" experiences with acacias.
But anything at this level of spirituality would be closely guarded.

They have, after all, been completely rippped off in many ways.

It is known as a Fact that almost all new born babies of almost all indigenous tribes were 'smoked' (traditionally) following birth with acacia leaves.

That is, finally, all I want to say regarding these matters.

Edited by phyllode, 17 February 2012 - 03:17 PM.

[dionysus]

i dunno phyllode, i'm not sure presenting your opinion as absolute fact is helping the cause. whos to say if aboriginal people encountered DMT they wouldnt have found the hole experience terrifying and warned others not to embark down that path, holding known sources as 'sacred beyond use'. it is a relatively modern and westernised concept that people need material to bare witness to the spiritual, the aboriginal people of australia are obviously very spiritual without such things and there need not be an entheogenic plant to open them to more spiritual ideas. If you want to ascociate dream time stories etc with DMT trippin' cause that's the only way it makes sence to you, i find that more insensitive than being open to the possibility of anything regarding native plant use (including the possibility that no one ever used DMT or similar).

dionysus

[phyllode]

Did you actually read what I wrote? Did I say: "aboriginal people used 'DMT'? I hinted, for the intelligent, at the problems with this question, in it's modern context.

I have said: 1) the particular tryptamine species are highly sacred (and should be respected) 2) indigenous peoples were quite capable of working with entheogenic plants. Do you really suggest South Americans were more advanced, or just luckier in their understanding of dmt plants?

I am truly saddened by the almost racist assumption of primitivism (based on outdated white writings) some of you are leveling on the culture.

I, and a few people here, have actually spoken with indigenous elders and arrived at the stated above position.

Another thing I am sure of is the comparative lack of intelligence displayed by some, but not all here, (compared with indigenous australians) of the many possible modes of use of such plants.

A number of writers have made whole careers out of simply writing down what the natives told them (R.E. Schultze etc.).
It is well known the 'natives' here never said much, unless years of trust were established.

On behalf of the culture, I firmly stand my ground.

Edited by phyllode, 17 February 2012 - 03:34 PM.

[dionysus]

sure, you never directly said australian aboriginals, but you are strongly implying it. why else would you be posting all this information in a thread specificaly about DMT? also, i never suggested the south americans were more advanced or even luckier, but we do KNOW that they use(d) DMT and other compounds for their spiritual practice. it has not been demonstrated that australian aboriginals required such material for their spititual practice as they were very spiritual anyway, i would consider THIS luck. just because we know australian aboriginals had an awesome knowledge of the flora around them and knew technology to make use of something doesn't mean they would have used it or that it would have had a positive effect, look how western inebrients have affected their way of life.

also, please don't accuse us of being dumb racists for trying to have a discussion, i don't think anyone here is calling anyone else primitivist and you putting those words into other peoples mouths is mean. regardless, australian aboriginal people now definitely do know about DMT

[phyllode]

For the umpteenth time, the constant rattling around the phrase 'use DMT' is the creation of others, who have then put words in my mouth.

Implied, perhaps. But what is wrong with this. Will you start demanding references from the other people in this thread who've implied similar.

Some of the generalizations made in this thread regarding culture dying out, and women, would be taken as highly ignorant if not racist by many indigenous people.

Like 'they' haven't known about 'DMT' as long as anyone here. Like they don't read or use the internet. Like some of 'us' haven't spoken to them about it.

'We' have just started discovering more MAOIs in native plants. Like they couldn't have experimented with them. I haven't tried to prove anything.

'They' know a lot. A lot more.

I stand by this, and respect the Culture.





Again, I stand by my essential stance that these plants are HIGHLY SACRED.

[planthelper]

aboriginal art, doesn't look like it's has been influenced by dmt, but it can't be ruled out either. i'm refering to the old style with the straight lines, which often forms rhombus shapes. it would be for me not unconcievable, that a trapezoid shape, is an attempt to, express the geometrical features of a dmt experience. i remeber something else now, some native shamans, were said to, "have opal stones in ther head" and the more stones you had, the more powerfull the person was. i don't know how many active acacias are growing at the top end, but maybe not many, if any at all (i think acacia confusa (spell?) was introduced much later. i try to make a point against, the natives used dmt theory, by saying this, because there is no dmt, wher this rock art survived. but than again, and this is a fact, we know that the aboriginals were very good traders, and did transport items and herbs over long distances, via the pituri trails. here is your link again, the ) had been added at a later stage, meaning your link doesn't work. http://en.m.wikipedi.../Mimi_(folklore) damm java problems, destroy my paragraphs, if i edit a post.

Edited by planthelper, 18 February 2012 - 09:52 AM.

[rahli]

I started a thread over at AE a few years ago now about a potential conection between rock art and entheogenic plant use. The species in question is Nicotiana benthamiana which grows in moist escarpment rock over hangs in the Northern Territory. I have found populations of this trance inducing plant within steping distance of rock art with the same themes as posted in the AE thread. This rock art was photographed along a public walking track in a national park.

Here is the thread if anyone is interested - http://www.australia...ana benthamiana

[phyllode]

I have attached a pic of some Brazilian ancient petroglyphs. They obviously knew about DMT. How can we really judge from petroglyphic art?
Also, only 20 or so of the 1000 or more acacias in australia have been properly scientifically tested, so how on earth would 'we' know what's available in north QLD.?

Attached Files

•  2brazil5.jpg   108.39K   46 downloads

Edited by phyllode, 18 February 2012 - 02:05 PM.

[folias]

hah, at least Phyllode and I agree on something!

I have heard that there are grasses growing at the base of Mount Buffallo that are known to contain beta carbolines. I am told ID is quite tricky. Does anyone know anything about this?

[mud]

Everyday i laugh when people
stay so serious about aboriginal culture

as to require 'the truth' and facts of things.

We''ve got a culture, that surrounds STORIES..and DREAMING.. (!)
one that is very disconnected, in many senses (I'll tell u bout THEIR fishing hole, but NOT mine..)

yet, we haven't wondered about that spontaneous ability..
or the dialogue that emerges suddenly, between people and their place.. which leads to rich and authentic knowledge..
Thing is..

if you value your land..know your place..listen carefully..
there's all kind of secrets that don't need further postulating.
And furthermore, the whole thing is arbitrary nonsense!
It's a dream story that we're all telling.

This whole planet is pyschedelic before you screw it with language, and measurement.
My suggestions is Australia's indigenous are on a kind of 'trip' anyway. We don't see the same edges that others do.
And perhaps, toward that end we don't need as much help in undoing those constructs.
If anything..we need help in integrating into a world that has these 'rules'.

anyway..my pint is.. in da reaming, we don't ne3dta
nake things solid. We need to keep things unbuckled!
It may appear quite the blasphemy to the new age aboriginal loving hippy, but:

'Koori' culture isn't as real..as it is made up..and THAT's THE POINT! : )

 

(sorry to rant off topic: )

Edited by mud, 21 January 2013 - 09:14 AM.

[webby]

You do know that the DMT extracted from acias is not NN DMT of the Terence McKenna elves variety but 5meo DMT ?

 

which is considered by the wider psychedelic community to provide a much lesser experience, will not get you to elf land or the dome and is not anything like the NN DMT used in Ayahuasca brews using p viridis.

[Shroomeup]

^^^Not true. You've got it frack to bunt mate. The active Acacias do contain mainly nn-dmt.

[webby]

Bugger - not arguing with you, I heard that about the 5meo years ago and just took it for granted that it was true, hmmm, I turned down the offer of some free acacia extract a while back thinking it was not what I was after - double bugger - thanks heaps for the heads up. - Please tell me that me P viridis is a true NN source or I am going to be very miffed. I've been talking to that bloody plant for months lol.- was waiting till it gets much bigger and more established before trying to do anything with it.

 

Of course if only there had been google all those years ago when the bufoon that told me it was 5meo

 

Just did a bit of digging and found this list....

 

THE FOLLOWING SPP. HAVE BEEN FOUND TO CONTAIN TRYPTAMINES (or are psychoactive) 
1 Acacia acuminata 1.5-1.8%DMT many bioassays [numerous net reports; Voogelbreinder 2009 citing 'Jeremy'] 
2 Acacia acuminata subsp.burkittii DMT in bark [J.J., EGA 2011]
3 Acacia alpina DMT-like effects, alkaloid in leaf [M. Bock; dmt-nexus]
4 Acacia auriculiformis 5-MeO-DMT in stem bark [Trout & friends] 
5 Acacia baileyana tryptamine and βcarbolines, in the leaf, Tetrahydroharman (see Tikhal) 
6 Acacia binervata DMT reagent +ve ('M' + Nen 2001) 
7 Acacia blakei DMT-like effects [dmt-nexus.me] 
8 Acacia cardiophylla mixture tryptamine & phenethylamine phyllodes [White 1957]
9 Acacia colei 1% DMT bark [ABC Radio National; several net reports] 
10 Acacia complanata 0.3% alkaloids in leaf and stem, N-methyl-tetrahydroharman, traces tetrahydroharman, tryptamine[Johns, Lamberton, and Sioumis (1966)] 
11 Acacia sp.'c' (NB. Endangered) DMT (this species has been extracted in the underground & not grown, for goodness sake grow some!, 300 adult trees, makes A. phlebophylla (15,000 trees) look common. 
12 Acacia cultriformis Tryptamine in leaf,stem & seeds, Phenethylamine leaf & seeds [Poland herabrium] 
13 Acacia cyclops alkaloids NMT/DMT-like effects, 1 bioassay[dmt-nexus.me] 
14 Acacia dallichana (hybrid?) DMT-like effects [reported to Nen 2011] 
15Acacia difformis DMT, 5meoDMT in leaves [S.Voogenbreinder citing Trout] 
16 Acacia elata DMT,5meoDMT,NMT,Formlytryptamine,betacarbolines 1 test; 1 report no alkaloid [dmt-nexus.me] 
17 Acacia falcata psychoactive 1 bioassay, possible tryptamines [dmt-nexus.me, Australian Ethnobotany] 
18 Acacia floribunda 0.3-0.8% DMT, NMT, tryptamine, harman [S. Voogenbreinder; numerous net reports]; numerous bioassays 
19Acacia harpophylla 0.5% Hordenine, phenethylamines, psychoactive[see wikipedia] 
20 Acacia longifolia 0.2-3%DMT[numerous net reports] 0.2% tryptamine in bark, leaves; phenylethylamine in flowers; Histamines [White 1942, Roveli 1967,Chemotaxonomie der Pflanzenr] 
21 Acacia longifolia var. sophorae 0.6%DMT,5meoDMT,Tryptamine,Bufotenine,Gramine ,Cinnamoylhistamine, n-dec-3enoylhistamine[entheogen review 1995], some strains very little alkaloid 
22 Acacia longissima DMT-like effects[dmt-nexus.me] 
23 Acacia maidenii 0.6-0.7% DMT,NMT [CSIRO]trace betacarboline, numerous bioassays of active strain 
24 Acacia mearnsii psychoactive, 1.2% DMT bark [dmt-nexus.me; EGA 2011] 
25 Acacia melanoxylon DMT, in the bark and leaf, but less than 0.02%, 1 report higher yield[dmt-nexus.me] [extentech.sheetster.com,pharmaceutical excipients.com] 
26 Acacia mucronata var. longifolia 0.4% DMT,NMT,Tryptamine, betacarbolines [Snu Voogenbreider Garden of Eden citing 'E', dmt-nexus.me] var. disstiflora and other varieties strong alkaloid +ve [CSIRO 1990; Roveli 1967]
27 Acacia multisiliqua DMT in a few tests [J.J. EGA 2011]
28 Acacia neurophylla DMT (bark), harman, norharman (leaves) [S. Voogenbreinder Garden Of Eden citing 'Jeremy'] 
29 Acacia obtusifolia 0.18-0.6%DMT,NMT,betacarboline(typical)also sometimes 5meoDMT, Tryptamine, Bufotenine [numerous refs, see threads in dmt-nexus.me] 
30 Acacia orites (rare, limited to one area)0.07-0.15% alkaloid (unknown), (UV fluoresence) [Nen 2002; S. Voogenbreinder citing 'E'] 
31 Acacia oxycedrus 0.4-0.5% alkaloid stem-bark DMT-like effects [dmt-nexus.me] 
32 Acacia phlebophylla (rare, limited to one area) 0.3% DMT in leaf [CSIRO, Rovelli] 
33 Acacia podalyriaefolia tryptamine [White 1951] not replicated claim of 1.8%DMT [Chemotaxonomie der Pflanzen by Robert Hegnauer]; all low yeild results on net 
34 Acacia provincialis 0.2-0.5% alkaloids (unknown) tryptamine-like effects [dmt-nexus.me] 
35 Acacia pycnantha 0.5% Tyrptamines bark [1995 resaerch paper]0.02% alkaloid leaf [Chemotaxonomie der Pflanzen by Robert Hegnauer],small amount DMT leaves [S. Voogenbreinder] 
36 Acacia retinodes 0.2% alkaloid (unknown) [Roveli 1967];0.5%DMT, NMT, nicotine?,[Pflanzentabelle APB (German)] 
37 Acacia thoma NMT with some DMT and ß-carbolines [J.J.EGA 2011]
38 Acacia victoriae Tryptamines (DMT?), 5-MeO-alkyltryptamine[Trouts Notes,] 


CURRENTLY UNDER INVESTIGATION DUE TO STRONG EVIDENCE 
Acacia concurrens (in research) 
Acacia decurrens (confirmed alkaloids) 
Acacia holosericia (Hordenine, phenethylaime) 
Acacia implexa (alkaloids) 
Acacia kettlewelliae (multiple Phenethylamines-White 1952, Fitzgerald et al 1963) 
Acacia macradenia (net reported tryptamines, unconfirmed) 
Acacia mangium (reported DMT, unconfirmed) 
Acacia obliquifloila (in research) 

ALSO REPORTED PSYCHOACTIVE 
Acacia beauverdiana 
Acacia cuthbertsonii 
Acacia deliberata

Edited by webby, 05 February 2013 - 08:53 PM.

[dg420]

like cacti i dont think they want published info about Acacia alkaloid concentrations here

i might be wrong though?

[Therefore]

which one s number 11...?

[Bush Turkey]

Why can't people just leave phleb alone??? There is so much more interesting wattles out there. WA has had some new discoveries recently. I'm sure it's more interesting to find "new" wattles then to keep studying the one. I've got my eye on Acacia merinthophora at the moment. It could hold nothing, or could hold some secrets. I'm going with the latter

[webby]

 I've got my eye on Acacia merinthophora at the moment. It could hold nothing, or could hold some secrets. I'm going with the latter

 

seeds are a bit pricey though.....

 

http://www.austrahor...d-product-flyer