LAGOCHILUS INEBRIANS

[ashley]

Anyone seriously interested in learning more about Lagochilus Inebrians; definitely one of the most intruiging herbs known to man and also supposedly the rarest to find, please visit our site at www.consultdrminas.com and click on the link on Lagochilus Inebrians on our 'Home Page' I am sure you will find all the information you have even wanted on Lagochilus, plus original Pics of our specimens. We would be very able and willing to supply your requirements, with definitely viable seeds, foilage etc. With best wishes, Ashley Minas(Dr)

[Rev]

Lagochilus inebrians

seeds

10 seeds -$ 200

25 seeds - $450

50 seeds - $850

ouch!

well best of luck anyway

out of my range, ill have to wait till it drops to a minimum 1/4 that before id take the risk

[smogs]

YIKES! i wonder what the germination rate is like... you would hope good!

[Rev]

Thats not really something you could prove as they say YMMV

Its a risk

all depends if you want to be the first kid on the block i guess

Its very tempting but with the added hassle of finding out what AQIS thinks of its weed potential (user pays) its a deal killer

If anyone gets relaible feedback from OS buyers plz update us

[ashley]

Sorry fellas! for feeling I am being insensitive regards the cost of this rarest of rare herbs. Honestly if you only knew the hassles gone through to find and collect the herb you would not think so. This herb is only found on the rocky slopes of the highest mountain in this country and that too only in one region. It took me well over a years searching, toil and expenses (labor, petrol, hiking ect)to finally find the golden grail of herbs, in a very limited quantity and naturally I cannot sell it at the same price as something one gets at bargain shops.

[Torsten]

Hi Ashley,

great to see you here. I've been wanting to ask you a few qustions for ages and doing it in the forums is even better than privately.

A friend of ours has recently travelled to Uzbekistan to research L.inebrians. He met with Professors Ikramov & son to discuss this species. As you would be aware, Ikramov & Ikramov are the authorities in the field of L.inebrians research (although their names are conspicuously absent in your reference list).

Our friend was taken to some wild stands of the plant and it was explained to him just how many specimen are still growing in the wild (just dozen plants or so!!!!) and how their numbers are declining rapidly. The professors also assured him that there are no L.inebrians plantations in Uzbekistan, but were not sure if there were any outside of their country (although they had no indications that this was the case). They were certain that THIS species does not grow in Armenia though.

Literature searches and research by some members on this forum have revealed that several species of lagochilus contain lagochilin and hence they could be used interchangably. Profs Ikramov suggested that at least 3 local species are suitable substitutes.

The questions that arise from this are:

1) If L.inebrians is truely endangered in its homerange, then how can you assure your customers that your herb is not sourced from these last remaining wild stands. You must understand that conservation is very important to many members of this community and as such this issue needs to be addressed urgently.

2)If what you are selling is not L.inebrians, but a different species, then it might be wise to share this information before it is discovered by someone else. (note: the last person to misrepresent 'one of the rarest to find' herbs (eg kratom) lost his business after being caught out.)

Given that 3 species are used interchangably and that they also share a common pharmacology, I don't think marketing a different species honestly is going to cause any loss of business.

There are several people now in possession of properly identified L.inebrians who will be running botanical as well as pharmacological tests on their material as well as yours.

Establishing a market for an alternative species would take the harvesting pressure off L.inebrians - which is a good thing.

Below a quote from my friends report:

"It was on the Soviet Pharmacopeia, and as a result wild stands (which only existed in Samarkand and the nearby Nuratau region) were harvested to near extinction, for USSR-wide consumption. It is currently on the Red List of endangered species, which prohibits harvesting, exporting, etc. any part of the plant (including seeds).

Dr Ikramov only knows of about half a dozen or so plants in the Samarkand area, and only another half a dozen or so plants in the neighbouring Nuratau region. He is also unaware of any commercial cultivation programmes (e.g. by pharmaceutical companies) or non-profit cultivation programmes (e.g. ex-colleagues, plant clubs). Being the World’s leading expert on the genus, it is likely that he would have been consulted by those trying to grow it properly."

also in regards to the species ID:

Lagochilus is a genus in the Lamiaceae family. It is comprised of ~45 different species found in current Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Iran, Turkmenistan and Afghanistan. L. inebrians has only ever been found in Samarkand and the neighbouring Nuratau region.

3) If your material is derived from cultivated material, then will you be sharing cultivation info with people who buy your seed?

4) How long is the viability for L.i. seed? You guarantee the viability of your seed, yet Prof Ikramov has done many years of cultivation and germination research on this species and states that a germination rate of max 65% is possible with a rigorous regime of stratification and perfect timing in wildplantings (apparently potted plants die). How can you claim your seeds to be 'definitely viable'? Does this mean you send 3 seeds for every 2 seeds ordered (given that >30%) are unviable?

5) There are lots of photos of dried herbal material on the web. Can you please share some pics of live plants?

[Rev]

ashley:

Sorry fellas! for feeling I am being insensitive regards the cost of this rarest of rare herbs.  

Sorry for sounding like that, i was being insensitive, i really meant i wish you luck in a genuine way . I didnt expect them to be cheap and it is a great thing for those who want to make something of it

Just being practical. AQIS is a problem and with shrubby herbs like what lago looks like with some care i wouldnt be suprised if the first round of (still expensive) cultivated seed starts getting around in a few short years after your offer

Just like im holding out for a Diploterys cutting

I hope you sell lots and everyones happy

[ashley]

Hi! Thanks for the letter, very interesting and after reading through, I know I definitely have the right herb although regards the subtype you are right- Our specimes are Lagochilus cabulicus Benth,whic is one of the subtaxa.This herb is found ONLY in the Meghri region of Armenia(Meghri is on the border with Iran).As you would have noted on my site, I have noted the slight morphological differences between Armenian Lagochilus Inebrians subtaxa and those from Uzbekistan. You will also view fairly fresh( I say fairly fresh because I harvested this herb specimen late in August when the herb was slightly drying in th wild but the flowering stem and Calylx pods are very evident). As for assuring the seeds are viable, all I can say is I harvested the same in the wild only very recently and they have been well preserved since then.I do not think anybody can guarantee the viability of their seeds, let alone from such a rare herb. As for Pharmacological actions being the same that I AM 100% SURE as it was stated so in REF:

REF: Textbook of Phytotherapy 11 Edition – L.V.Harutunian & R.K.Hovhanissian – Chapter 307 – Page 394.)

All phytochemical constituents and pharmacological actions, remain identical.

REF: 1) Pharmaceutical Biology (Formerly International Journal of Pharmacognosy) Publisher: Taylor & Francis

Issue: Volume 35, Number 1 / January 1997,

Unfortunately the book by L.V.Harutunian & R.K.Hovhanissian is in Armenian, so will have to be translated but in short that is exactly what it says regards Armenian Lagochilus Inebrians.Regards not noting your professors reference, well all I can say I have given a great list of references so if I did not come accross any single particular reference I think that is not by design but just by chance; so please do not make anything more about that omission that it deserves. Anybody who wants to buy the only original specimen possibly being sold can do so from us and anybody who wants to 'bury his head in the sand' and not believe the obvious of course does not have to purchase from us. My conscience is 100% clear and to me that is most important. I hope you do not take offence by anything I have written, for it was not meant to hurt but only from the heart, for I have done over one years of pains taking research and searching and only when I had completely given up hope of finding this herb in Meghri(as it is ONLY found in that region in this country)I was shown a specimen by a goat herdsman, whom I had long past asked to look for the herb while on his months long graze in the mountain ranges in Meghri region. I then made extra sure by having the specimen picked for me studied at the Agricultural Universitry here and was told it was Lagochilus Inebrians Subspecific taxa: Lagochilus cabulicus Benth. I rest my case!

[Torsten]

Thanks Ashley for the superfast reply!! And thank you also for being so honest and open about the details. Rare, exciting and expensive plants often make honesty the first casualty.

Originally posted by ashley:

I know I definitely have the right herb although regards the subtype you are right- Our specimes are Lagochilus cabulicus Benth,whic is one of the subtaxa.This herb is found ONLY in the Meghri region of Armenia(Meghri is on the border with Iran).As you would have noted on my site, I have noted the slight morphological differences between Armenian Lagochilus Inebrians subtaxa and those from Uzbekistan.

This is great news! Thank you.

Profs Ikramov are botanists, so I prefer to take their advice on Lagochilus taxonomy and they state that this species only grows in a very restricted area and only in Uzbekistan. This includes all subspecific taxa. I am waiting for a document on Lagochilus to confirm the accepted species, but it appears that L.cabulicus is in fact its own species. Naturally all lagos in that area would be closely related, but we need to trust taxonomists to tell us just how much they are related.

I think this is good news for two reasons. One is that you have confirmed that this is indeed not Lagochilus inebrians and hence your harvest does not threaten the viability of the tiny remainder of the Uzbek population.

The second reason is that this confirms that other species are active and can be used in the same way. As there are somewhere between 30 and 45 species I would be interested to try a few more (I'm dreaming ).

My only concern now is the viability of the species you are harvesting. As I said, Ikramov had done many years of research on cultivating this species with some astounding results. eg, while plants in the wild would reach over 30 years of age, plants in cultivation would always die after 5 or 6 (even though they were healthy). The root needs to penetrate sever meters into the ground soon after germination, hence cultivation in pots is inadvisable. Seeds are only viable for a year and require stratification and certain cycles during planting. I wonder if you have managed to raise any of your species outside it's natural habitat?

Also, how will your harvest impact on the survival of this species in the wild. You say yorself that the species is hard to find (hence presumably rare) and restricted to a single mountain. As you harvest before the seed is produced, this wold deplete the seed store available for regeneration of the population.

I am not criticising you with this - I was just wondering if you had taken these things into consideration. After all it was the reckless wildharvesting of L.inebrians for the russian market that has made it nearly extinct.

You will also view fairly fresh( I say fairly fresh because I harvested this herb specimen late in August when the herb was slightly drying in th wild but the flowering stem and Calylx pods are very evident).

Ha, ha. It's difficult to tell fresh from dry with this species

I guess I was hoping to see a pic of a juvenile plant.

As for assuring the seeds are viable, all I can say is I harvested the same in the wild only very recently and they have been well preserved since then.I do not think anybody can guarantee the viability of their seeds, let alone from such a rare herb.

I agree with you. Hence my question about your original statement about 'definitely viable seed'.

As for Pharmacological actions being the same that I AM 100% SURE as it was stated so in REF

References aren't everything, but there are many reasons to believe that your species has the same activity as L.i. I am not doubting you. In fact I am happy that there is another equivalent species and hopefully we can popularise this one in an effort to protect the other. I think it is important to tell people its real name though so we don't get anymore unscrupulous people trying to harvest the L.i.

Regards not noting your professors reference, well all I can say I have given a great list of references so if I did not come accross any single particular reference I think that is not by design but just by chance; so please do not make anything more about that omission that it deserves.

I wasn't making anything of it. I just noticed it because Ikramovs were the first names I came across in L.i. research as they have such a large volume of work on this species.

Anybody who wants to buy the only original specimen possibly being sold can do so from us and anybody who wants to 'bury his head in the sand' and not believe the obvious of course does not have to purchase from us.

I am fairly certain that you do not have the right to sell this as L.inebrians, since L.cabulicus is a different species and not a subspecific taxon. I will however wait for my documents before making this claim. If this is indeed not a subspecific taxon then you are misrepresenting the identity of the plant. This would be a pity as there really is no need for it. Given that there simply is no L.i. to be harvested anymore (12 plants don't make much of a business) everyone will simply buy L.cabulicus anyway.

I hope you do not take offence by anything I have written, for it was not meant to hurt but only from the heart

No offence taken. I admire what you have done. But please understand that ethnobotany is a combination of anthropology and botany and it is the botanical aspect I am a little critical of.

I then made extra sure by having the specimen picked for me studied at the Agricultural Universitry here and was told it was Lagochilus Inebrians Subspecific taxa: Lagochilus cabulicus Benth. I rest my case!

You see, my problem is that this phrase makes no sense. If you said "Lagochilus inebrians subspecies cabulicus Benth." then that would be a proper name. However, Benth described L.cabulicus as its own species, distinct from the earlier specification of L.inebrians by Bunge. There has been no review to change this.

I will put this issue to Prof's Ikramov via my friend to see what they have to say.

[planthelper]

beeing rare and isolated to only a few spots in the wild, this plant very likely is, "very difficult to cultivate outside it's natural habitat"! similar like our acacia phlebopylla...

to grow this plant we have to replicate it's natural enviroment, so we need to know more,about the soil and climatic conditions this plant thrives on... it's probably a very arid area with poor but very friable soil (long deep roots).

whats the temperature range for this plant...?

any seeds viability can naturally never be assured, but it's common practise to trade only seeds batches where successfull germination has been proofen allready by the trader...

i am certain this plant can grow in australia,

but we need more info to suceed.

i am interested purchasing this seed...

[ 30. September 2004, 09:07: Message edited by: planthelper ]

[Jack]

I would be interested in contributing to a group purchase any takers?

[Torsten]

yep, I think I would like to be in on that too.

[puristlove]

if there are literally only a dozen l.i. specimens left, what exactly is the stuff that popped up on the internet about a month ago?

[Rev]

Consider this...

Chamaecytisus palmensis

leguminous shrub emdemic to the island of La palma in the Canary islands

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=e...26ie%3DUTF-8%20Link

 

AKA Tagasaste

Eucalyptus ficifolia

Shrubby Eucalypt resricted to a small strip of land on the caist of WA

Now grown in mediterranean climates worldwide

Eucalyptus Caesia

gungurru

Restricted to granite outcrops in wheatbelt WA

now grown worldwide in semi-arid mediterranean climates

My point is of course that being from a restricted locality has provento be of no relevance with many plants when taken to new areas

Its posible that only geography or geologica barriers make these plants restricted

As for the one year seed viability. Thats a bit unusual for a dry seeded arid shrubland plant of that family. If true it means a very poor strategy for survival in a place where droughts can last a long time.

Itis possible the seed is still alive but as many desert plants do is hardseeded and dormant.

Acid washes or removal of the seedcoat have been used to break dormancy is some stubborn australian arid rangeland plants

Its even posible thar the dry herbage retains its seed inside and passes through the gut of a ruminant herbivore before germination will occur

This is where the sheep and goat families originate so it woulnt suprise me

On contrast it might be that seed in direct contact with soil for any time has low survival rates because it is not evolved to germ this way

I saw somthing about Acacias on africa where seed losses are almost total by weevils except when elephants eat the seeds and pods an dthe gut disgest the weevils , pasteurises the seed by fermentation and deposits it ready to go in a steaming turd

I wonder about Damiana too - maybe this is facilitated by rangeland deer and the seeds seem to hang on well enough and a reason why its has near zero germ in vitro but propagates by seed naturally. If i were in Damiana country id like to collect deer shit and see what grows from it

The again maybe its ants

Myeb next time you are out that way collect a bag of goatshit from nearby and sow it in an exposed tray and let it overwinter and see what germinates when the rains fall

It would be good to have a good closeup picture of Lago seed and try and figure out what feautures it has that might give a clue to its dispersal strategy

Seed that can resist and acid digestion is fairly hard and will pass through would end up pelleted in manure balls like what happens with subclover in sheepshit

I dont know how to synth this but maybe acid treated seed could be pushed into balls of fresh sheep shit and planted

I read yesterday while looking up bitter melons that in India they push fresh seed into cowpats and then dry to store for planting (hehe teh original jiffy pot) while in comparison fast loss of viability is a problem with this species when kept loose

[edited to fix link only]

[ 01. October 2004, 23:34: Message edited by: Torsten ]

[Torsten]

puristlove - the anwer is in the long text above. That's the very point I am trying to make!

reville - Profs Ikramov have done many years of research on the germination of the seed and have covered most of those angles already. being privvy to local knowledge re animals and climate gives them an advantage we should respect.

I do agree that there is likely to be a dormancy thing though for at least some fo the seed. This is indicated by the fact that seed that is planted as soon as ripe and stored in soil over the frosty winter has the highest germination rate, while seed sown in spring will do poorly.

[planthelper]

concludes, seed stratification is achieved by chilling and multyple dry and moist periodes. i think some dessert type seeds protect themselfes by this mechanism, they don't germinate with the first water, because in the dessert, chances are its just not enough rain to establish a young plant sucessfully. after a couple of cycles of wet & dry, the seed hopefully waited long enough for this "statisticly over due big rainstorm" and might now finaly poke its head out.

well this is just a theory inspiered by,

brine shrip eggs (seamonkeys) for example just do that, some hatch with the first water, some after dry / water /dry /water, some after only 7X dry /water.....

[ 02. October 2004, 09:55: Message edited by: planthelper ]

[teonanacatl]

i came across a guy a few months ago that had collected some seeds from afgahnistan(i think) as he was going to try to grow it as a crop, he gave seeds to numerous botanical gardens back in the states and he tried several different ways but had no luck getting germination, where as in their home country they had no problems. he offered to sell me some seeds for $10US each on a few conditions, that if i was sucessfull he recieved a live plant, i wasnt allowed to sell the seed or plant to neone and i wasnt allowed to use it to get high. i contacted a few people at EA about it and a few people here and a few were interested, but as he couldnt assure me of some viability i declined the offer.

[spiders]

So Torsten - do you think the plant material that is around is htis endangered species or perhaps something similar?

[Torsten]

I am quite certain that the material around is the same as ashley's and as such is not L.i. This is good news as it means the species is not being 'hunted' to extinction. It is also good news because we now know that other species are just as good and hence there is no need to put more pressure on L.i.

The question that remains now is just how rare or threatened L.cabulicus is as we would want to prevent pushing this species into a similarly dire situation. I was hoping Ashley would give us some more details on this.

I think it is imperative to get the news out there that other species of this genus are just as useful and to leave L.i. alone. Maybe one of the other species is easier to farm.

[ashley]

Hello all! This is the information as much as I have researched on the subject:

Lagochilus inebrians is on the endangered list of some Central Asian countries (but not the US, the UK or Europe) as they are remarkably few specimens around but the species I have in my posession Lagochilus cabulicus benth although 100% similar in chemical composition and remarkably so morphologically, to Lagochilus inebrians is found from Georgia, Armenia(Meghri region only) both in the Caucasius and also some neighbouring mountainous parts of Iran, it is not on the endangered list in these countries and I have made every human effort to make sure it stays that way by keeping the roots in situ without any damage ready for the next season and also selling the seeds to seriously interested buyers internationally, so that the herb may be planted commercially to preserve its goodness for generations to come! I am also endevouring to do likewise here with the help of local botanists with the experience and the knowhow.

[spaced]

planthelper:

well this is just a theory inspiered by,

brine shrip eggs (seamonkeys) for example just do that, some hatch with the first water, some after dry / water /dry /water, some after only 7X dry /water.....

Sounds like trying to open a safe! What hope have you got without knowing the combination?

[Rev]

spaced:

 

spaced:

well this is just a theory inspiered by,

brine shrip eggs (seamonkeys) for example just do that, some hatch with the first water, some after dry / water /dry /water, some after only 7X dry /water.....

Sounds like trying to open a safe! What hope have you got without knowing the combination? they excise the coat or chemically treat to standardise hatching in commercial eggs

The same methods of acid treatment, alcohol washings or hormone treatmnet can be used with seeds

[drvijay]

i am Dr Vijay ayurvedic consultant(indian system of herbal medicine) i have tried Lagochilus cabulicus benth, in my clinic's, it was really difficult for me to differentiate between varies taxanomic classifications of Lagoochilus but i am quite confident that whatever species i used showed the desired effect like Intoxication(better then the Indian hemp),haemostatic,anti depressent activity & anxiolytic effect

i wish to share my experience with this and learn more from and new findings other then i have seen,i would be very grateful get more research work done on Lagochilus inebrians/cabulicus

[Darklight]

Welcome drvijay! You're certainly in the right place to share information

What sort of future research are you proposing? I am a plant micropropagation consultant with a very poor understanding of chemistry, but there are lots of other clever boffins here who know so much more

[Torsten]

Originally posted by drvijay:

....like Intoxication(better then the Indian hemp)

Your Indian Hemp must be really weak

I like the feeling of Lagochilus, but it is very weak. Can you tell us more about your preparation method as I am sure this is instrumental in ensuring potency.