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#126 ThunderIdeal

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 01:50 PM

Man that guy had an axe to grind. That's why I always believe he'll be back! Somebody invoke the trollinator-in-chief!
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‘For why should this powerful force of nature, of which we already see such significant effects in our humid, ever conductive atmosphere, not be operative in the cosmos at large by a measure far exceeding that of our minuscule perceptions?’ Wilhelm Matthias Olbers, 1812, upon observation that a comet's tail always points away from the sun as though electrostatically repelled.

#127 stonewolf

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 01:54 PM

 Yeah, fuck starling man. Total snoot. He can fuck right off to his ha ha's, pinot noirs and painting romantic oils from his terraced villa.

 
Ban! Ban! Ban!



Wasn't my point.

Was pointing out the inconsistency of your attitude with visiting this site.

#128 starling

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 02:04 PM

I cant help but think back to the earliest troll from my time on the forum. Went on about the state of jnana and put too much dmt in his ass. Exact same attitude: Thinking he knows exactly what every member of the forum thinks, and of course, certain that his Buddhism gives him superiority.

Well you'll have to take my word for it that I'd never put DMT in my ass. Or anything else of that nature because I'm not a depraved fiend. Though I have little doubt that a forum which contains a poll measuring whether or not people approve of other people fucking themselves with cacti (with most being in approval) does naturally attract social detritus of the kind you mention. Being buddhist doesn't grant me superiority, but not being ripped out of frame every other week (day?)  on psychotropic chems probably gives me a bit of an edge, I'd wager.

 

I actually listed what my problems with the culture here are, only one member has so far written back anything even remotely intelligent in way of a rebuttal. Just to bring you up to speed, I'm at this point a snooty self-righteous fail law student with a superiority complex who is very much like a buddhist DMT shelfer. And a wanker, too. Lets keep the ball rolling--have you got anything else?



#129 starling

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 02:06 PM

Wasn't my point.

Was pointing out the inconsistency of your attitude with visiting this site.

 

Well, it's also a site dedicated at least partially to biodiversity, sustainable crops and fruiting cacti. So there's a lot here for me to like.


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#130 waterboy 2.0

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 02:17 PM

yes there is, now stop being an arse and chillax


Edited by waterboy 2.0, 05 February 2016 - 02:17 PM.

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"We cannot solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
"Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character." - Albert Einstein

 

"An alkaloid never occurs alone....." .      "You cannot plough a field by turning it over in your mind".


#131 DiscoStu

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 02:33 PM

The idea that psychotropic compounds exist as a kind of psychopharmacological  medicine chest to be dipped into by human beings as modicums for said human beings to explore spiritual dimensions is very silly shit--completely out of step with evolution.

 

not out of step with evolution at all. many animals imbibe of many substances. taking catnip in cats as a single example, they actively seek out the plant. now is a cat having a “spiritual experience”? impossible to tell, but the fact that the cat seeks out psychotropic substances and will take it to the point of near unconcsiousness points to the fact that the desire for altered states are something which is inherent in many animals.

 

so do these experiences have an evolutionary advantage? well, traditional psychedelic usage in humans exists mostly in a cultural context. people will use it to bond socially through ritual, and to propagate cultural norms through generations. psychedelics can induce deep bonding in humans, and as humans are essentially tribal/social creatures, it stands to reason that stronger bonds will be beneficial to the survival of the tribe. humans existed for hundreds of thousands of years, if the use of psychedelics was of no evolutionary advantage then they would have been discarded by now (would native americans use peyote for over 5000 years if there was no advantage? very doubtful)


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What’s remarkable is that atoms have assembled into entities which are somehow able to ponder their origins.


#132 DiscoStu

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 02:45 PM

Psychotropic compounds do not unlock some secret portent of consciousness, creativity, or anything else. They merely elicit delusions which are misinterpreted as spiritual experiences, or are otherwise imbued with mystical explanations/significance which are/is nonsensical.

 

”creativity” well creativity is in essence subjective. is being inspired to paint a flower by its supposed beauty any more legitimate than painting psychedelic visions by their supposed beauty?

 

”secret portent of consciousness” if your argument is that psychedelics have no material impact on human consciousness, that any state arrived therein can be arrived at by any other means then you are clearly wrong. at the very least visual effects of psychedelics cannot be induced without taking psychedelics. try asking someone who has never taken acid before what taking acid is like?

 

”delusions” according to some people almost all thought is necessarily delusion. the apparent “delusion” induced by psychedelics is no different to the “delusion” induced by eating icecream.

 

but in toto, you are apparently trying to tell people what their experience is based on your own ideas about reality. if you haven’t realised by now that this is in itself delusional thought then you should re-examine where you’re coming from.


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What’s remarkable is that atoms have assembled into entities which are somehow able to ponder their origins.


#133 DiscoStu

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 02:48 PM

Said adherents to this line of thought are probably addicted  to the highs given by said compounds, and the whole spirituality thing is just a means of excusing said addiction--or perhaps legitimising this.

”probably” : you’re assuming too much. psychedelic substances are not addictive in the same sense as, say, opiates. this whole point is you just making shit up about people based on nothing but your own biases. not really worth addressing.


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What’s remarkable is that atoms have assembled into entities which are somehow able to ponder their origins.


#134 Change

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 02:49 PM

rant
rant/
verb
 
  1. 1.
    speak or shout at length in an angry, impassioned way.

 

 

 

I think the rants thread would work better if it was left for people to rant in without discussions of said rant. Generally speaking, when someone is ranting they are to upset to have a constructive conversation about the subject and are just trying to blow off some steam. 

 

If someone wanted to have a discussion on a topic, they would start a thread or join an existing thread, not post a rant.

 

Well thats my rant about the rants thread for now  

 

 

 

 


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arriving at the same conclusion by multiple lines of enquiry.... 


#135 DiscoStu

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 02:52 PM

  Rather than increasing intellectual capacity, or otherwise allowing intellectual potential to be realized, said compounds actually reduce the positive intellectual outcomes of imbibers.

 

are you saying that taking psychedelic compounds makes people dumber? I don’t know of anyone on this forum who has said that taking, for example, psilocybin mushrooms increases IQ. i’m not aware of any studies which have shown anything like this. are you referring to the study which examined the use of cannabis on IQ?well you should be aware of recent study which has sai that using cannabis has no material impact on IQ (http://www.shaman-au...showtopic=42777)


What’s remarkable is that atoms have assembled into entities which are somehow able to ponder their origins.


#136 DiscoStu

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 02:54 PM

Said compounds are often inherently psychologically harmful, and pretending they aren't is dangerous, self-serving, and irresponsible.

 

well this i would agree, reckless use of strong mind altering substances can be harmful to the user. but I don’t think you’ll find anyone on this forum who says otherwise.


What’s remarkable is that atoms have assembled into entities which are somehow able to ponder their origins.


#137 starling

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 03:33 PM

^^^ If you're not "obligated to enter the labyrinth," then why protest so passionately? There are plenty of different opinions on here, and all are allowed. Not everyone's going to agree! As for your secret group... Pffffffffft... If you're so highly evolved, why do you care if there's some sort of perceived elite group? You can bet your ass there are people here who are trusted more than others, either because they've proven themselves worthy, or have been around for a long time; nothing to get offended about, yeesh!


My take...

A) Out of step with evolution? . Also, why shouldn't psychotropic substances NOT be utilised to explore an arguably important aspect of Human Experience - ie Spirituality?

B) "Misinterpreted as spiritual experiences" Hm what is an accurate interpretation of spiritual experience? You cannot either prove or disprove that psychotropics facilitate creativity or access a non-ordinary state of consciousness. Do you dream? What if you had met a person who had never dreamt (or denied themself the memory of having dreamt) and denied that dreaming is a figment of your imagination?

C) Actually it's rare for people to become addicted to psychedelics even in a psychologically-dependant way. I think you'll find that most people on this forum have a healthier attitude toward psychotropics than the average drug user (like yourself getting drunk to be DRUNK); and considering that you've decided to pick a bone with us, I'll use us as example. Just because YOU like to shut down in YOUR way in YOUR chosen method, doesn't make YOUR way the ONLY way.

D) Your generalising is very unbecoming; and thoroughly worrisome considering your aspirations of a legal profession. But do you really need examples of people who have used psychotropics with benefit? Francis Crick? Edison? Feynman? Freud? Carl SAgan? Edgar Allen Poe? Bloke that wrote Jeckyll and Hyde? My use has inspired my wanting to move forward in my life after certain hardships, and I know of only I think three people who I've known throughout the years who haven't said that they received some sort of life changing insight or epiphany from the use of a psychedelic.

A) I don't understand your first question. If you'd understood the context of my original statement, you'd know that I was referring to the speaking in riddles thing.

B) Well, you see that's where you're wrong--because my opinions were immediately met with childish derision and name calling, and apart from your post, none have evolved beyond that thus far. If there's anything comforting to be taken away from it, it's that these people are doing the work for me, so to speak.

B) Why so passionate? I wouldn't say I'm overly robust about it. I am a combination of bemused, irritated and vindicated. The combination of all three isn't entirely unpleasant, surprisingly.

C) I'm sure that's true, but I'm also sure that my better and most rational posts have been deleted in the past because they didn't tow the voodoo line. They were devoid of vulgarity and petty name calling, I assure you.

D) Don't post naked statements--that is, statements such as those you have given to the effect of psychotropes having helped the development of the human intellect. I will peruse these if you provide them, but I will not consider any anthropological or sociological articles. I want to see nueropsych./neureomed papers, with some hard data, complete with methodological explanations.

E)Yes, out of step with evolution. This is the simplest point to make, and here's why: Social evolution isn't material evolution.

Cactacea developed complex compounds as a means of deterring things from eating them. It's that simple. Have you ever noticed that they are, generally, completed covered in vicious spines, also? When you eat a cactus, you are doing precisely the opposite of what that organism intends you to do to it. There is not, as far as I'm aware, any cactus fruit which is toxic. That's because cactacea want things to eat their fruit, and therein disperse seeds, sending out their genetic codes further and further. That's how it's meant to go down. Not only do these organisms not know the spirit exists, they don't know human beings exist, that a concept of the spirit exists, and they evolved long before the concept of this relatively modern shamanistic bullshit ever entered existence. I believe that's checkmate.

 

F)What is an accurate translation  of a spiritual experience? Now, that is something I cannot answer. However, fortunately, I don't need to answer it, because the way that psychotropic compounds work on brain chemistry is relatively well understood. It's not magical, ethereal--it's chemical. Material. Observable. It's not voodoo. And why is it, then, that if the spirit is unique, that these supposed spiritual experiences are so very, very similar between cases? That is not what you'd expect to see if the spirit were indeed unique between cases. Isn't it more likely that, say, these compunds are working on the brain in the same way, and it is the brain itself being affected, not the spirit?

 

G) You are correct--I cannot either clinically disprove, or prove, that psychotropic substances either reduce or creative output, such a study never would, nor should, gain approval. I would certainly argue that they don't, given that drugs have ruined more actors, writers, and musicians than probably any other force in existence. In fact, if you read poe, Let me ask you this; if psychotropic drugs really do unlock creative potential, then why isn't everyone on this forum a creative genius despite indulging in said portent-unlocking substances routinely? I will tell you why--because a creative genius, or just a creative person in general, will produce good Art whether they ever indulge in psychotropes or not.How do you account for the level of creative mediocrity and indeed abject failure within this culture? Probably the biggest clue for me is the uniformity and banality of the Art produced --it's almost completely homogenized and utterly devoid of any truly enlightening, interesting  or otherwise poetic thought at all. And since you've sighted poe, let me just point out that the more addicted he became to opium, and the more he consumed, the more facile and shambolic his writing became. Ditto the Ropmantics who did the same thing.

Now, let me just lay down the killstroke on this thing once and for all:

 

Guess who didn't do any kind of drugs and is considered the most important modern artist and spatial genius of the last century?

None other than Salvadore Dali. He is actually famous for saying, in fact, I don't do drugs. I am Drugs. There is absolutely no evidence that Dali ever took LSD, mushrooms, cacti, or anything else other than Hash in very small quantities. And he is the greatest surrealist who ever lived.

 

So no, I don't buy this idea that Drugs do boost or otherwise unlock creative potential, but I certainly believe they can nullify it.

 

H)Actually it's rare for people to become addicted to psychedelics even in a psychologically-dependant way. I think you'll find that most people on this forum have a healthier attitude toward psychotropics than the average drug user (like yourself getting drunk to be DRUNK); and considering that you've decided to pick a bone with us, I'll use us as example. Just because YOU like to shut down in YOUR way in YOUR chosen method, doesn't make YOUR way the ONLY way.

 

I agree with you 100%, and that's why I went to great lengths to reiterate that I have no problem with people doing any kind of drug in any moral sense. Boot smack through your tearduct, I don't care.  That's actually why I cited the example of my own drinking habits--I'm saying I'm not better than anyone else when it comes to indulging in recreational drugs. But here's what I don't do--make up completely bullshit reasons to excuse or otherwise hide the fact that I do my drug because I like the way it feels, and that's it. I Have no excuse to offer, and do not feel obligated to give one. And that's the real reason behind the use of psychtropes--people like the experience of tripping. That's it. That's why they do it. And I have no problem with that whatsoever. Maybe if you were an Indigenous Brazilian living a traditional lifestyle in the Amazon basin doing ayahuasca, then yeah--you've got a case to make. But if you're sitting around drubbed out of your skull in some filthy shag-carpeted rat's nest, watching the curtains move, thinking about nature,gins of the universe, life and everything, while you're wearing silver and semi-precious stone jewelry sourced from mountain top mines ( the most environmentally deleterious type conceivable) and taking about how it's all got good 'Energy'. then please--give me a fucking break. Because you're the punchline in a bad joke about hypocrisy that I'm tired of hearing.


Edited by starling, 05 February 2016 - 03:36 PM.


#138 Sallubrious

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 03:59 PM

I hope you have an interesting life starling ?


Mrs. Hudson: [turning to Dr. John Watson] Doctor, you must get him to a sanitorium! For the past month, he's taken nothing but coffee, tobacco, and coca leaves. He never sleeps! I hear multiple voices, as if he's rehearsing a play.

 

Sherlock Holmes: Don't you have a goat that needs worming?


#139 starling

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 04:04 PM

I hope you have an interesting life starling ?

Address my points, or don't address me at all.

 

In any case, I have procrastinated long enough today.



#140 DiscoStu

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 04:04 PM

a forum which contains a poll measuring whether or not people approve of other people fucking themselves with cacti (with most being in approval) does naturally attract social detritus of the kind you mention

 

 

 

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

 

 

so it's all about you hating the cactus porn thread?

 

 

 

 

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA


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What’s remarkable is that atoms have assembled into entities which are somehow able to ponder their origins.


#141 Sallubrious

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 04:59 PM

Address my points, or don't address me at all.

 

In any case, I have procrastinated long enough today.

 

That was a direct address starling but it went right over your head.

 

If you were half as wise or well read as you believe yourself to be you would have understood what it meant.

 

So today you've picked on a bloke (who you don't know) that's just been through one of the toughest times of his life, called us all troglodytes and faked respect for a woman in a wheelchair and then layed the boot in after you thought you delivered a knockout punch with your snide little comment about her being the punchline in a bad joke.

 

You are possibly the most cowardly, arrogant, insensitive, inadequate prick I've ever come across here.

 

FFS everybody stop feeding this troll !


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Mrs. Hudson: [turning to Dr. John Watson] Doctor, you must get him to a sanitorium! For the past month, he's taken nothing but coffee, tobacco, and coca leaves. He never sleeps! I hear multiple voices, as if he's rehearsing a play.

 

Sherlock Holmes: Don't you have a goat that needs worming?


#142 ThunderIdeal

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 05:06 PM

Word^

Troll is a troll.
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‘For why should this powerful force of nature, of which we already see such significant effects in our humid, ever conductive atmosphere, not be operative in the cosmos at large by a measure far exceeding that of our minuscule perceptions?’ Wilhelm Matthias Olbers, 1812, upon observation that a comet's tail always points away from the sun as though electrostatically repelled.

#143 starling

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 05:18 PM

 

That was a direct address starling but it went right over your head.

 

If you were half as wise or well read as you believe yourself to be you would have understood what it meant.

 

So today you've picked on a bloke (who you don't know) that's just been through one of the toughest times of his life, called us all troglodytes and faked respect for a woman in a wheelchair and then layed the boot in after you thought you delivered a knockout punch with your snide little comment about her being the punchline in a bad joke.

 

You are possibly the most cowardly, arrogant, insensitive, inadequate prick I've ever come across here.

 

FFS everybody stop feeding this troll !

 I haven't picked on anyone--and I have no idea who it is who has been though the toughest time of their lives. I didn't refer to anyone specifically as troglodytes (some of the).

 

As for the wheelchair thing, I'm afraid you've completely lost me. I legitimately have no idea what, or who you're talking about--and as for having faked respect for this person, well I'm sorry but that just leads me into deeper confusion. At no point did the issue of wheelchairs come up from what I can see--when did that happen?

 

Look, I'm sorry you don't aqgree me with me but please, let's not go off the deep end here. You can't accuse me of being insensitive about things if I am not even made to understand what those sensitive issues are--I was not even made aware of them. Did I miss a post somewhere? Frankly, I think this a pretty low blow--I would never willfully mock anybody over any kind of illness, especially not a disability, and I certainly wouldn't revel in someone's misfortune. Again, I don't know what you're referring to, and resent the implication that I would resort to such tactics immensely.

 

And let me just add--not one single person has addressed a single point of my argument, after having berated me to clarify my position. Instead, I get victim mentality passive aggressive bullshit.

 

Finally, learn to read a sentence--the comment about the silver jewelry was written in passive voice. It's not directed towards an poster. It is hypothetical. 

 

I will post it again, verbatim:

 

But if you're sitting around drubbed out of your skull in some filthy shag-carpeted rat's nest, watching the curtains move, thinking about nature,gins of the universe, life and everything, while you're wearing silver and semi-precious stone jewelry sourced from mountain top mines ( the most environmentally deleterious type conceivable) and taking about how it's all got good 'Energy'. then please--give me a fucking break. Because you're the punchline in a bad joke about hypocrisy that I'm tired of hearing.


Edited by starling, 05 February 2016 - 05:29 PM.


#144 DiscoStu

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 05:40 PM

And let me just add--not one single person has addressed a single point of my argument, after having berated me to clarify my position. Instead, I get victim mentality passive aggressive bullshit.

 

 

holy shit. 

 

well done, 6/10 you made me put in effort

 

8e3bKw.gif


What’s remarkable is that atoms have assembled into entities which are somehow able to ponder their origins.


#145 El presidente Hillbillios

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 07:29 PM

I think the culture here is well set in after all these years starling. To be honest, if you dont like it, dont come here, no one is making you.

 

 

i think maybe you should have a time out for a week, to think about if you really want to be part of this community or not.

 

 

This thread i think has degenerated enough to be locked and moved into the bitches and gripes.

 

PLease pm me if you would like to discuss further


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Everyone carries a piece of the puzzle. Nobody comes into your life by mere coincidence. Trust your instincts. Do the unexpected. Find the others.