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plant spirit rant


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#26 incognito

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Posted 31 August 2015 - 10:08 AM

And she's ten :)
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"What the thinker thinks, the prover proves." - RAW


#27 Conv3rgence

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Posted 31 August 2015 - 10:14 AM

Now, if anyone can give me advice on how to prepare for the day that my son finds out that Santa Claus isn't real, that would be some really useful information!

Kids are smart, mine already worked it out ages ago. Also, I try my best to encourage them to cherish imagination and not cling to an idea of reality, so that things such as santa or anything else become 'play'. If we are addicted to rationality then santa becomes a 'lie', where as if they continually engage in imaginary play that I also join in with, then santa is merely another aspect of 'play'. If my daughter tells me shes speaking with a ghost (as she was 2 nights ago in bed), I play along, I just accept it.

Kids are more connected to their subconscious and we forget our childhood, we forget our child perception. My kids teach me so much about myself, merely by just being children. If we all come from a collective unconscious where there is no separation, much like Paradox has stated, then perhaps when we are children we are more connected, and we develop this ego with age.

Edited by Conv3rgence, 31 August 2015 - 01:40 PM.

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"Reality is what we take to be true. What we take to be true is what we believe. What we believe is based upon our perceptions. What we perceive depends upon what we look for. What we look for depends upon what we think. What we think depends upon what we perceive. What we perceive determines what we believe. What we believe determines what we take to be true. What we take to be true is our reality."

#28 Conv3rgence

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Posted 31 August 2015 - 10:17 AM

Let him believe what he wants to believe. My girl knows Santa ain't real but she loves the fantasy. Reality is subjective :)


Couldn't agree more, well said.
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"Reality is what we take to be true. What we take to be true is what we believe. What we believe is based upon our perceptions. What we perceive depends upon what we look for. What we look for depends upon what we think. What we think depends upon what we perceive. What we perceive determines what we believe. What we believe determines what we take to be true. What we take to be true is our reality."

#29 Anodyne

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Posted 31 August 2015 - 10:57 AM

Ok Sally, didn't realise there was some private context behind all that, I was just responding to what was there. Didn't mean to misinterpret your words.
Into this wild abyss the wary fiend stood on the brink of Hell and looked a while, pondering his voyage.

#30 Glaukus

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Posted 31 August 2015 - 11:15 AM

I think what's important is how you use whatever paradigm you believe in to make things better. I see plenty of bad deeds done by people who believe in spirits just like people who believe in a clockwork universe.
I really think incog hit it, we all need to work it out for ourselves because reality is subjective.
Change and Anodyne: what I meant by my earlier statement is that the scientific process is, for the most part, a reductive process. It breaks complex things down into smaller and smaller pieces to analyse them. Quantum theory is like the mysticism of science in a lot of ways, and I'm not sure there can be a grand unifying theory without reverting to mystical concepts.
It's all just words. And words are magical.
But words can't describe the indescribable whether it's scientific language or mystical language.

#31 Sally

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Posted 31 August 2015 - 11:57 AM

Sorry if I came off the wrong way Change, I'll stay out of your thread mate.

 

I ready to snap here, you'll hear about my street on the news tonight. Not from what I've done, from what's going on next door and all around me.

 

If I snap, you'll hear about me on the news tomorrow night.


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Wiliam Albrecht


#32 gtarman

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Posted 31 August 2015 - 11:58 AM

I don't like reading several pages of stuff so what I'm going to say may already have been said. But I think this touches on a deeper issue which is the divide between science and spirituality. Cool discussion topic though.

 

On the one hand debating between the two is kind of pointless anyway because spirituality is not bound by the same laws of logic and testability that underpin science - that's why the "debate" between atheists and creationists will never end, because the idea of god is neither provable nor disprovable, and it doesn't rely on any particular logical assumption. That's where the flying spaghetti monster comes from. Or Russell's teapot.

 

And the other part of it is that some things are sort of just too complex for us to completely explain and understand scientifically. It's not that there aren't scientific laws that govern how something works, it's just that those systems can be so dynamic and chaotic that often the best we can do is guess or approximate how they work, and this leaves a lot of uncertain grey areas where spiritual perspectives can seek to approximate in different language what we can't necessarily quantify.

 

But I actually don't like to separate the two or pit them against eachother. I think that calling aspirin from willows a healing spirit is equally valid in terms of the human experience, and more just a different way of naming and seeing the same thing. I don't think one invalidates the other. The same as I think that psychedelics can be a spiritual experience, that doesn't mean I don't think they have physical and scientific mechanisms of action.

 

Think of it this way maybe - just because I believe I have a mind, that doesn't mean I don't believe that I have a physical brain that that mind arises from. I feel the same way about what we call the spirit: just because something has a basis in physical reality, that doesn't mean it can't be what we experience it to be. I don't know if that makes sense to anyone else but that's how I see it.


Edited by gtarman, 31 August 2015 - 12:03 PM.

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#33 Yeti101

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Posted 31 August 2015 - 12:54 PM

Started to write something - but it got a bit long and off-track - might be helpful though, if you are interested in a bit of metaphysics http://www.shaman-au...=41939&p=512501

 

Figuring out what's real can be tricky. What's much harder is saying what definitely doesn't exist. To some extent I've put that question aside.

 

What is more immediate, for me at least, is how a belief alters the life of the person having it, and how them having that beliefs effects those around them.

 

Does a belief mess up someone's life, perhaps by making the world seem even more difficult, or by making them prone to being taken advantage of by the unscrupulous and powerful (fascist demagogues, cult-leaders, politicians, sporting 'personalities', corporations and advertisers)? Does it cause them to act in a way that adversely alters the life, freedom and happiness of those around them (by indulging in terrorism, evangelising, hooliganism, homophobia, social exclusion, bullying, racism, conspicuous consumerism, murder, mayhem, rape, censorship, thought-control, selling ThermoMix machines to the unwary, boorishness, or donating to Joe Hockey's election fund)?

 

If the answer is yes to any of those - then a belief is a problem. If the answer is no, then no matter how outlandish it is, I don't have a huge problem with it.

 

I don't know where a belief in plant-spirits, or being able to speak with those who have passed sits in all of this. In my humble opinion, you could do much worse than know people who hold these views.


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#34 toast

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Posted 31 August 2015 - 01:50 PM

Sorry hear about your friend Change, that sucks
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#35 DiscoStu

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Posted 31 August 2015 - 03:06 PM

science (and in particular mathematics) is a description of phenomena in culturally relevant language, in much the same way as a shaman uses description of a phenomena in language relevant to their culture. where certain cultures may describe the plant making someone sick as being "malevolent spirit" is describing the same phenomena as western science describing the chemicals as making someone sick. one language isn't inherently superior to the other, 


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What’s remarkable is that atoms have assembled into entities which are somehow able to ponder their origins.


#36 bogfrog

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Posted Yesterday, 09:46 AM

Good discussion and thanks for your thoughts, I liked reading them.
Just wanna say though, I hope this forum can long continue to be a place where people can express themselves without being shut down or belittled because they don't align with others ideals and thoughts.
I carry a lot of shit around in my head which I can't talk about and one of the things that helps me to deal with this is being able to talk about the things that I love and am excited by. No, they aren't scientific. My brain doesn't work in that way. I'm not equipped for it.
But simply because someone has ideas and beliefs different to your own doesn't mean they are wrong, or that this person needs to be corrected for their sake and for the sake of anyone who comes into contact with them.
Lately it's been feeling a like there's a bit of hostility being thrown around and the effect that that can have is that some people feel less welcome to share and express themselves.
But isn't that what a forum is for? To meet other perspectives?
If I want to believe a plant has a spirit, so be it. If I want to tell a child to be gentle with a plant because it has feelings, so be it, science has come to the party and backed that up.
Do I go around telling people that this spirit is evil and that spirit is good? No. Because that would be imposing my human judgement on a living thing which I only have a very limited understanding of.
I understand that there is strong, valid reasoning behind holding one'self to the scientific paradigm, but it's just not within my nature to immerse myself in that. While I understand this disposition may be considered willful ignorance or arrogance by those who have devoted their time to developing scientific understandings, I call for recognition that my own approach to studying life is the one which is valid for me as an individual, and that is why I continue with it. I get the answers and insights which are practically useful to me and this helps me carry on. We all know we can't really determine anything for certain, so why not simply accept that we each live in our own form of reality and this diversity is what stimulates growth and development for all of us.
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#37 Distracted

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Posted Yesterday, 07:42 PM

Where has it ever been stated that the soul creates our personality ?

 

Put the same soul into a king, a pauper and a thief and chances are the personality would be vastly diiferent.

 

If you seriously believe that nothing but science is of any consequence or importance then lie, cheat, steal and take advantage of all others in the name of science and rejoice in the fact that there is no soul or spirit.

 

Is spirit or soul something that needs to be proven by double blind studies or just an abstract notion that relates the the human condition ?

 

People have struggled with this issue for thousands of years.

 

In my mind it's all just an allegory to morality - do we believe it's all about the here and now or is there a bigger picture.

 

Choosing the here and now is a convenient excuse to cash in at other peoples expense. You never struck me that way Change.

 

You always seemed like you could believe in the bigger picture.

 

 

 

What if the bigger picture isn't about souls or afterlife but the continuation and progression of the human race?


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#38 Change

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Posted Yesterday, 08:34 PM

.  


Edited by Change, Yesterday, 08:39 PM.

arriving at the same conclusion by multiple lines of enquiry.... 


#39 incognito

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Posted Yesterday, 08:45 PM

dammit change this was an awesome thread! I was honestly really enjoying what you had to say!! :(


"What the thinker thinks, the prover proves." - RAW


#40 Change

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Posted Yesterday, 08:49 PM

ive gotta draw the line somewhere and stop stepping on peoples toes 

 

I was just about to have another rant but a more mature side of me said "whats the point" 


arriving at the same conclusion by multiple lines of enquiry.... 


#41 Change

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Posted Yesterday, 08:51 PM

Thanks everyone for participating in this thread, its really helped me understand why i cant get answers to the questions i want answered. 


arriving at the same conclusion by multiple lines of enquiry.... 


#42 incognito

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Posted Yesterday, 09:03 PM

whats the point is that you where expressing yourself. you are an interesting thinker, theres no need for fussing and feuding. this is your thread :)


"What the thinker thinks, the prover proves." - RAW


#43 incognito

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Posted Yesterday, 09:17 PM

And hang in there sally! it does sound like u need to get out of there. tough times for everyone around here lately it seems I think we all really need to cut each other a little slack.

I hope we can all move on to more peaceful existences. Hectic is overrated.


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#44 bogfrog

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Posted Yesterday, 10:20 PM

If you have more to say, please do Speak Change. Why hold it back. We do have genuine interest in your thoughts. And because all kinds of rants are needed, your speaking out your unique perspective could build useful layers in the thought landscapes of others.
Of course feathers get ruffled sometimes, that's how it goes when people are passionate about and deeply involved with their ideas and their learning.
It stirs the pot. The pot usually needs stirring.

edit: +

Look what happens when the pot gets stirred: people think about and talk about things they may not have otherwise. And we all learn from this. Lots. I probably learn the most from those who think most differently to myself. I don't always enjoy it at the time, but in the long run I know it's for the best.



And even if you can't get your questions answered atleast by talking about things do you find a diverse network of perspectives to compare and consider. Really your answers can only come from within but a wide data pool of possibilities often helps in the research phase.

Edited by bogfrog, Yesterday, 10:51 PM.

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