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doth conscious?

what is consciousness consciousness experience perception mind

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#1 ThunderIdeal

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 07:20 PM

i didn't know what to call this thread or how to start it, and i don't want to sound superior because i'm barely conscious myself but i try.

 

do ya feel conscious punk?  well, do ya feel conscious that ya conscious? 

 

how often?

 

do you still use psychedelics to experiance hopefully some small egg-spansion of your tiny perceptive egg, to see if you can see see see if you ams what you ams and if that's all that you ams?

 

 

please watch this first.  i was surprised to find that it resonates with my current thoughts.  i've always had a rich inner world, always been engrossed with my own mind, how it apparently functions and at tmies asked myself just where the FUCK does my mind get some of it's shit from.  my parents deny any involvement, sometimes i do too.  i often catch my mind making loads of spurious connections which i can't keep up with and because each one is a launching pad for the next they mostly become dust in the wind despite my efforts to reduce and rationalise any of it.  hallucinitory events are too hard to describe but i tend to think that many of you must have had similar perceptions. 

 

i remain open to the possibility that materialists are correct about the source and fate of each human consciousness.  what i do find dubious is the hopeful notion many folk have that after death they will preserve human aspects, their "personality", and go on being Harry McBollocks somehow.  now i'm starting to question, even in life, just how insular our stream of consciousness even is.

 

don't feel confined in this thread, just have it.  know amongst each other that it's impossible for any of us to share the depth of our searching, pondering and experiencing. 

 

 


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In Occidental theology, the word transcendent is used to mean outside of the world. In the East, it means outside of thought. To imagine that your definitions of your God have anything to do with that ultimate mystery is a form of sheer idolatry from this standpoint. Your God is good enough for you and mine’s good enough for me. A God, from this point of view, is merely a reflex of one’s ability to conceive of God. Since people have various abilities of this sort, they have various powers of apprehending God.


#2 ThunderIdeal

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 12:48 AM

rupert sheldrake too much of a "nutjob" for your sensibilities?  then maybe this will be a more appropriate video to get this discussion going.

 


In Occidental theology, the word transcendent is used to mean outside of the world. In the East, it means outside of thought. To imagine that your definitions of your God have anything to do with that ultimate mystery is a form of sheer idolatry from this standpoint. Your God is good enough for you and mine’s good enough for me. A God, from this point of view, is merely a reflex of one’s ability to conceive of God. Since people have various abilities of this sort, they have various powers of apprehending God.


#3 DiscoStu

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 03:20 PM

i don't think scientists are necessarily "consciousness is in the brain and that's that!" (even though you'll find a lot of the more outspoken neuroscientists will state that) but rather of the mind that there's not enough evidence to say really. but bearing in mind there's not really even a solid definition of what even "consciousness" is then there's really nothing that science can test for. 

 

do i feel conscious? 

 

i don't understand the question.

 

but certainly there's a lot of room for discovery in brain science and if anyone says there's not then they're charletons. but just as humans realised the earth wasn't flat after all maybe humans will realise our "consciousness" is indeed more than the sum of it's parts. 

 

but i have another question. you say you feel conscious. but are you really just a product of your native language? how adept are you of devising situations/ideas that you have no descriptive language for or even any referential experience to correlate against? i put it to you that your ideas are almost entirely limited by the language in which you think.


Edited by DiscoStu, 12 October 2014 - 03:22 PM.

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What’s remarkable is that atoms have assembled into entities which are somehow able to ponder their origins.


#4 ThunderIdeal

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 09:37 PM

Never said I think I'm conscious! Infrequent moments of heightened awareness make me suspect I'm usually not so conscious at all.

I'd love to believe that all scientists don't suffer from arrogance or institutional assumptions. You're right that its too tenuous a topic to even know what questions to ask or expect scientists to stake their career on it. For now bio-electrical activity is a valid and fruitful area for research and isn't going to draw ridicule from anybody except radical hippies with no critical thinking.

Funny you mention the language I think because I also think visually though this trait is weakening, and when it was strong i was a much more awkward, sensitive person (child). I think you're right, if I cant visualise it or talk myself through it (or witness/hear/feel it) then how can I behold it? Of course there are different programs the mind runs (reductionist or holistic), there are different gears (relaxed awake, concentrating, half asleep, meditative states, modified neurochemistry), emotions going concurrently, memories and ways of thinking that can be pervasive or they can be compartmentalised. All of these offer their own tiny vistas of cognition as do unusual traits like visual/synesthetic thoughts, sensory uniqueness (colour blindness, perfect pitch) and even irrational attachment for instance to religious dogma. These can only be shared across limiting channels, but they might also propagate across morphic resonance, thought forms, reality creation...

That said I suspect the mind has a deeper language of its own which we can't hear or understand most of the time. This could be the cause of the cognitive dissonance mentioned in my first post (train of thought moves outside of practical scope), as could my transition from weakly autistic visual thinking weirdo to mentally underpowered neurotupical weirdo.

Thanks for contributing disco Stu, all I'm asking for is insight into this most psychedelic, mind expanding and difficult topic.

Mind is interesting but they build minds in silicone valley, and minds have an evolutionary purpose. Consciousness is the colossal mystery. If its not an illusion then why does it exist? Is it as fundamental or more fundamental to reality than matter and energy? Is it made of energy and if so what is the process to transform one into the other? Does it form discrete units according to its host or is that just how the host tends to perceive it? Cab these discrete streams mix, converge, break, combine or in any way evolve, devolve or seek their way to a different state of being? Does it have set behaviour (eg collect information and patterns then project influence on matter to build toward certain qualities (symmetry, consistence, complexity, stability or novelty/originality))? Is it distributed fractally across different degrees of size, influence and scope?

Free will or causation defines its movements?

Is there a principle or system of organised information which shapes or pervades matter? Does it have to be made of magical divine souls or could a force like electricity (observed arranging matter in stunningly elegant and useful connecting structures)? Could it be electrical or a symbiote of properly arranged physical forces?


Edited by ThunderIdeal, 14 October 2014 - 10:49 AM.

In Occidental theology, the word transcendent is used to mean outside of the world. In the East, it means outside of thought. To imagine that your definitions of your God have anything to do with that ultimate mystery is a form of sheer idolatry from this standpoint. Your God is good enough for you and mine’s good enough for me. A God, from this point of view, is merely a reflex of one’s ability to conceive of God. Since people have various abilities of this sort, they have various powers of apprehending God.


#5 lofty86

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 11:19 AM

Recently I’ve experienced a second awakening comparable to my introduction to psychedelics. This time through poetry, a poet named Bob Strums workings had just appeared in my face book news feed.

He had sponsor his page and it had some how found me. I began to hear the poetry in everything, recognising omens, its as if the Architect was speaking to me again, I remembered we are one. This time its as if im speaking back to myself from the future, frighteningly telling myself to support the ideological war on Islam, and letting myself know not to worried about the Ebola epidemic, its all a part of some grand plan, a great ideological and biological cleansing.

The symbol Mercedes Benz uses is constantly present in my minds eye, Nazis were the swastika the four, now is the three, then will come an omen of the two, then one, before we return to (or realise) the true timeless conciousness.

Also I feel an urgency to return to my original path, I left home at the age of 13 and a half and lived as a female until I returned to my home town at the age of 15. I remained openly homosexual but in suppressing my will I turned to drugs, firstly chroming followed by a decade long gear binge that had almost destroyed me.

My one redemption was finding the Corroboree, although id dabbled in psychedelics often throughout my adolescence this place helped direct my motives towards evolution rather than degradation.

My relationships have always been with heterosexual men, for most I had been there first and last experience with another male, other homosexuals are seldom attracted to me with the exception of militant lesbians, my spirit is definitely more female, rather a conjugation of masculine and feminine leaning further towards the latter.

I feel its my Dharma to be somewhat a painter, poet, clown, express my femininity outwardly sending a visual message to the masses to begin a trigger towards a pan sexual transhumanist evolutionary process.

Other strange happenings are beginning to occur which are suggesting to me it my time to eclipse my mother, dissolve her Dogma for the betterment of the family, this is causing tension in our relationship, she had grown up in Penang (although indo-aryan heritage) before moving to Australia (her father an SAS man stationed there) her belief system incorporates Vedic, Christian, then after moving here and taking to much acid in the 70s Pagan ideology, we practice non violence and vegetarianism she has also worked in our town as a Tarot card reader the last 30yrs,she ensured her children were taught cartomancy, the method of loci, and lucid dreaming techniques, my childhood was a mixed blessing I suppose my parents are quite much like a lot of members on this forum.

Any how along with my recent reawakening noticing omens etc., I had been walking along the street when out of nowhere the three of clubs flew up into my hand, perhaps its the architect telling me to begin reading, im worried what my mother may think of this.

I’m also a little upset at her for recently beginning to attend the local rave scene in a professional capacity reading cards and offering sound healing.

I had always operated at such events in my own professional capacity as a go to guy if you catch my drift, but feel as if I continue it would affect her professional reputation, she is aware of this and im unsure if I began reading if she would take this as tit for tat and become upset. Well not sure if this is the kind of response to your thread you were expecting but its the thought process it triggered within me so thought it appropriate to share.

 


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#6 ThunderIdeal

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 08:31 PM

I just realised who you are, didn't notice that you came back. I missed your contributions.
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In Occidental theology, the word transcendent is used to mean outside of the world. In the East, it means outside of thought. To imagine that your definitions of your God have anything to do with that ultimate mystery is a form of sheer idolatry from this standpoint. Your God is good enough for you and mine’s good enough for me. A God, from this point of view, is merely a reflex of one’s ability to conceive of God. Since people have various abilities of this sort, they have various powers of apprehending God.


#7 lofty86

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 04:55 PM

Ive been lurking in the shadows this entire time, i dont think i contributed so much myself back then, I was certainly a trigger for others to share there wisdom, asking questions others may have felt stupid for asking and debating my oppinions with Torsten and not backing down, im sure my earlier posts make for an interesting read lol. its really a shame about the free trade thread i grew so much from that experience in particulare, had taught me honour which is a quality i hadnt discovered untill sharing there. ill never leave this place, one in which i see all others as equal regardless of where they may be on the wheel :) Ive always enjoyed your contributions too Thunder, even miss the trolls back in the day esp baphomet and teotz (was that his name i know there was a nice member with a similar one) would love to find hunubku/chiral not to throttle him as i first had planned but thank him for teaching me an important lesson, I love all you guys and im sure most here are quite concious of there evolution, and the few who arent soon will be once they settle in a while. The Corroboree will always be my home ;) sorry for derailing the thread a little my bad
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#8 Gunter

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Posted 15 October 2014 - 04:07 AM

For me consciousness is a word, it merely means on to me. It is polar in on/off.

Like a computer, it is on or off.

I do not perceive that altering the delineation and demarcation of self and other changes, expands or otherwise increases consciousness.

For me it is a biological thing, bacteria are conscious etc.
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#9 ThunderIdeal

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Posted 18 October 2014 - 11:42 AM

heres a visually-interesting documentary narrated by Sulu from star trek, or james earl jones, or maybe a hybrid of both.

 

you decide!!

 

 

i can't remember its content exactly but i'm watching it again. 

 

(i'm not endorsing this video)


Edited by ThunderIdeal, 19 October 2014 - 04:33 PM.

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In Occidental theology, the word transcendent is used to mean outside of the world. In the East, it means outside of thought. To imagine that your definitions of your God have anything to do with that ultimate mystery is a form of sheer idolatry from this standpoint. Your God is good enough for you and mine’s good enough for me. A God, from this point of view, is merely a reflex of one’s ability to conceive of God. Since people have various abilities of this sort, they have various powers of apprehending God.


#10 whitewind

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Posted 18 October 2014 - 04:28 PM

I've never really thought about the consciousness.. being conscious question.. in this sort of light before.  I would say I am aware, in that I have a bunch of thoughts and ideas and patterns knocking around that seem linked to this body.

 

What I do to it on a physiological level has a marked impact, as when we take psychedelics or under stress, or whatever.  There is definite biological input.  Your story resonated with me a little Lofty, I have gone through a transition recently and my hormonal changes have made a huge impact on the nature of how I perceive these things, but they are essentially the same experience, just coloured, emotionally different.  Brain patterns have changed also, I am much more able to communicate and percieve things effectively, the way I wanted to before.

 

But I agree that there is another dimensional level to this stuff.  Perhaps memories are "stored", perhaps consciousness works in what we call "higher levels" or other dimensions.  The fact that the universe appears to be created of dark matter, 85% of the universe we can't perceive using scientific instruments, only infer from their interactions, suggests that we live in a multi-dimensional universe, some of which are close to our base fabric of three, and which we can interact with on some level, and could be initiated by the right combinations of neurochemicals, etc.  Perhaps our mind is more linked to these than our bodies, hence the astral travel notions, where we can present elsewhere but our physical, 3 dimensional aspect remains (apparently) in the same place.  And why we can have shared hallucinations, of things which aren't there in base 3-dimensional fabric but somehow are perceived by our expanded consciousness. 

 

You see, a basic calculation can give us extra dimensions.  If our base 3 dimensional matter makes up 15% of the universe, and we assume that dimensions are equal in mass ( a very large assumption indeed) then, I assume that 5% belongs to each dimension, giving us a grand total of 20 possible dimensions, all snugly running parallel to each other in a spiralling nest that loops back on itself in a kind of circular manner.  Of course, we don't have the language to describe these dimensions yet, but that's the way I see it.  So being able to interact with the dimensions lying closest to us is certainly not out of the question, it seems quite likely in fact, and these dimensions might be the base level fabric for other beings which could be attempting to communicate with us.

 

In fact, since we appear to be interacting with these dimensions on some level, it makes absolute sense that perhaps there are aspects of nature which also interact with them, shown by the preponderance of neurochemicals found in plants and animals with which we seem to access them.  Why could not nature being firmly embedded in these further dimensions on a level we can't obviously perceive from our base 3-dimensional perspective?  What happens if nature itself is embedded throughout the 20 dimensions, and we can only perceive a small aspect of that?

 

What sort of impact does dark matter and it's dimensional reality have on the fabric of this planet, the sun, our solar system?  If it is evenly distributed throughout the galaxy in much the same way that 3 dimensional matter is, there will be pockets here and there, maybe running directly alongside 3 dimensional fabric and within our own planet.

 

Anyways, just a few thoughts.


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#11 whitewind

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Posted 18 October 2014 - 04:45 PM

http://www.theguardi...xions?CMP=fb_gu



#12 ThunderIdeal

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Posted 18 October 2014 - 06:20 PM

I'm calling it. Dark matter, black holes and the big bang are mathematical fabrications. See Stephen crothers although that's not what I base my opinion on.


Edited by ThunderIdeal, Today, 03:16 PM.

In Occidental theology, the word transcendent is used to mean outside of the world. In the East, it means outside of thought. To imagine that your definitions of your God have anything to do with that ultimate mystery is a form of sheer idolatry from this standpoint. Your God is good enough for you and mine’s good enough for me. A God, from this point of view, is merely a reflex of one’s ability to conceive of God. Since people have various abilities of this sort, they have various powers of apprehending God.


#13 whitewind

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Posted 18 October 2014 - 06:49 PM

I can understand throwing out the big bang, but chucking out observable phenomena or inferred phenomena?

 

How am I going to push my new theory?



#14 ThunderIdeal

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Posted 18 October 2014 - 09:28 PM

on the contrary, when you stop believing that physicists have most of this stuff worked up it opens up whole new vistas.

 

all that's observable is errors in the models, conveniently filled in by an untestable spaghetti monster. 

 

i don't really want to debate this here and i'm especially not interested in the ire of anyone invested in relativity.  actually i appreciate the post whitewind and i didn't mean to call into question any of the ponderings, it's just something that's been brewing up and i wanted to declare it.

 

it's almost an appropriate place to discuss maverick sciences but... maybe not. 


In Occidental theology, the word transcendent is used to mean outside of the world. In the East, it means outside of thought. To imagine that your definitions of your God have anything to do with that ultimate mystery is a form of sheer idolatry from this standpoint. Your God is good enough for you and mine’s good enough for me. A God, from this point of view, is merely a reflex of one’s ability to conceive of God. Since people have various abilities of this sort, they have various powers of apprehending God.


#15 whitewind

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Posted 18 October 2014 - 10:05 PM

Oh don't get me wrong, I know physicists don't have it all worked out.  It's all best guess stuff based on what we think we know.  It gets revised, sometimes dramatically, quite frequently.  Hence my quick stab in the dark theory as to what might be happening if, as Rupert Sheldrake says, consciousness resides outside of the brain/body.  And he is clearly being sidelined by the establishment for daring to suggest this stuff.  I mean, he has proved (according to science) that telepathy actually exists, so if we believe in the scientific method we should use the tools we have to try and understand it.  But hey, if you feel we're going off-topic a bit, I'll have another think and see if I can come up with something equally profound but more relevant.  I love threads like this!



#16 ThunderIdeal

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Posted 18 October 2014 - 11:45 PM

i don't usually try to confine threads, maybe i just know the topic doesn't really have established boundaries and its connection to other enormous topics threatens us with catastrophic subject matter blow-out that i'm too lazy to participate in to my fullest potential.

 

not to mention the (possibly heated) resistance i know i'm going to cop when i start shoving more and more maverick science in the general direction of people (and is that even a reasonable approach for me to take when luring and engaging minds takes more finesse than machinegunning links to hundreds of hours of talks).

 

as you were :P  i'll just try to add momentum where i can before the thread fizzles.  there are books to do, and trips to read. 

 


In Occidental theology, the word transcendent is used to mean outside of the world. In the East, it means outside of thought. To imagine that your definitions of your God have anything to do with that ultimate mystery is a form of sheer idolatry from this standpoint. Your God is good enough for you and mine’s good enough for me. A God, from this point of view, is merely a reflex of one’s ability to conceive of God. Since people have various abilities of this sort, they have various powers of apprehending God.


#17 Gunter

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Posted Yesterday, 03:03 AM

I just want to see a test where consciousness can promote temporal dilation.

#18 ThunderIdeal

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Posted Today, 03:31 PM

if that's even a real phenomenon, who ever implied that consciousness could influence it? 

 

because your post is so short i'm not sure where you're coming from.   (edit:  if it's in reference to the athenes theory video, i'm not standing behind the content of that video.  i posted it but it doesn't resonate with me)

 

i'm not going to post experiments that hint at the existence of psychic powers (somebody else may).  i'm not interested in that debate.  i was hoping to hear some way-deep philosodomy on how y'all try to approach this notion with your mindpowers, what thoughts and suspicions your mind is harbouring and any experiences that might influence all this.

 

let me give an example.  the universe exhibits filament structures.  for no particular reason i visualised an ethereal organism like a sea-urchin or perhaps a nerve cell.  it had a central point enbristled with about twenty featureless arms, and for no reason in my minds eye it descended on my body and a few arms randomly made landfall on my body, perhaps inserting itself into my neural or electric circuit.  i was then slightly overcome by a compulsive imagery and quickly decided it served no purpose in my paradigm, or didn't fit somehow, it was unpleasant and i didn't want to dwell on it, so i let it go as you do an unwanted thought.  i had the sense of a kind of parallel identity which might have been the origin, i had the sense that it must resemble my own identity and that is why it could easily insert itself and interfere with my personal biz.  what does it mean?  i don't know.  nothing.  just a thing that happened in my mind. 


Edited by ThunderIdeal, Today, 03:34 PM.

In Occidental theology, the word transcendent is used to mean outside of the world. In the East, it means outside of thought. To imagine that your definitions of your God have anything to do with that ultimate mystery is a form of sheer idolatry from this standpoint. Your God is good enough for you and mine’s good enough for me. A God, from this point of view, is merely a reflex of one’s ability to conceive of God. Since people have various abilities of this sort, they have various powers of apprehending God.


#19 ThunderIdeal

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Posted Today, 07:08 PM

Ive been lurking in the shadows this entire time, i dont think i contributed so much myself back then, I was certainly a trigger for others to share there wisdom, asking questions others may have felt stupid for asking and debating my oppinions with Torsten and not backing down,

 

i had you confused with a poster named puck.  actually i think i remember you from far more recent posts although you registered about the time puck appeared.


In Occidental theology, the word transcendent is used to mean outside of the world. In the East, it means outside of thought. To imagine that your definitions of your God have anything to do with that ultimate mystery is a form of sheer idolatry from this standpoint. Your God is good enough for you and mine’s good enough for me. A God, from this point of view, is merely a reflex of one’s ability to conceive of God. Since people have various abilities of this sort, they have various powers of apprehending God.


#20 Dreamwalker.

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Posted Today, 08:56 PM

I haven't had a chance to read any of the post..sorry..but I have watched all 4 vids...I would have stuck likes on all of them...but I thinks your like box would be over loaded.......the last 2 were the best.............the last 1 was the best explanation I've heard yet of the Electric universe....its taken a while to get my head around the concept...rewire my appropriate neurons....its increasingly making more sense to me....shame I liked the old school universe....but its beginning to seem rather naive....a couple of resonance's ....there is only 1 electron.....Meson's  transit from matter to anti matter 3 trillion times per sec....so that means there is only 1 us...1 conciousness....& we are both matter & anti matter.....very Buddhist really.....and with the Electric universe....with stars etc being brighter because they are working harder transforming higher rates of energy...kinda akin to brain cells...axons ...we are really naive to the nature of the universe/multiverse....perhaps just 1 great conscious entity.....lighting up suns like axons.....simply a fractal image of our own mind, the holographic reflection of all other minds...we are all in it together.....awareness desperately pretending it/we are not alone..............I think the truth is the 1 thing we don't want....I think deep down we know, but we prefer to pretend...to get lost in the great illusion...........


Edited by Dreamwalker., Today, 08:58 PM.

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don't take any thing seriously, you die every moment :)


#21 ThunderIdeal

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Posted Today, 09:14 PM

people always get attached to the old science ;)   even scientists, who should know better.  the five stages of loss and all?  after a couple of months to process and get over it, and hear it put in various positive lights, i'm actually looking forward to the possibility of scrapping a century of flawed physics.

 

what doors it would open.  imagine!  still (tangible) discoveries to be made?  wide frontiers to be solved in a universe once thought solved? 

 

anyway back to consciousness, you concluded on a long-standing notion in spiritual traditions and one that i've witnessed in the furthest depths of a stupefying incident with acid (documented here in some old thread and repeated like a mantra in countless posts).  there is only one.  me.  god..  there might be other reasons why god cunningly deceives itself rather than hiding from the truth.  i (lower case) don't know.

 

at least the electrical universe model is easier to reconcile with these notions of vast interconnectedness, and it's interesting to see how some of the maverick EU scientists keep their noses hard while others indulge in quasi-spiritual detours. 


Edited by ThunderIdeal, Today, 09:15 PM.

In Occidental theology, the word transcendent is used to mean outside of the world. In the East, it means outside of thought. To imagine that your definitions of your God have anything to do with that ultimate mystery is a form of sheer idolatry from this standpoint. Your God is good enough for you and mine’s good enough for me. A God, from this point of view, is merely a reflex of one’s ability to conceive of God. Since people have various abilities of this sort, they have various powers of apprehending God.