143 replies to this topic

[chilli]

@amanito Can't you just slowly reduce your dose instead of doing it in big jumps? Start by making weaker coffees and then slowly start cutting down like a cup a day each week or fortnight or something.. you may still get headaches etc but should be more manageable, and the painkillers should work better.

@FancyPants
Tea leaves do contain more caffeine by weight than coffee beans, but a cup of tea contains less caffeine than a cup of coffee because much less plant material is used to make the tea.

Theanine is not caffeine, nor does it have a similar effect, as it is relaxing. You may be mixing it up with the term theine, which is an outdated term for caffeine (caffeine in tea was originally thought to be different and named theine).

@Jabez
Caffeine is a stimulant drug that is tolerance building and discontinuing heavy use commonly leads to withdrawal symptoms such as those described above, it is not just psychological just because you do not experience the effects of withdrawal.

As mentioned, caffeine is a diuretic, which is entirely relevant to the question of hydration as diuretics by definition cause dehydration. Drinking say 2 or three cups a day, the diuretic effect is probably balanced out by the water you are taking in at the same time, but drinking a lot of coffee like 5+ cups a day will likely lead to dehydration if no extra water is consumed.

Edited by chilli, 05 February 2012 - 04:06 AM.

[ThunderIdeal]

jabez, caffeine is physically addictive, and the most serious and widely reported withdrawal is probably headaches. headaches can be crippling, therefore withdrawing could be considered a fairly serious move.

that being said, i think i have read that the withdrawals last only a few days and that is my experience too.

also, i agree with you about water, especially when perspiring. the water in coffee doesn't really count due to chilli's reasons. you need water, this is australia god damnit, the sun is hot and the water is biologically safe, so drink the water and you will be better for it. normally the colour of your piss will indicate how dehydrated you are.

Edited by ThunderIdeal, 05 February 2012 - 06:33 AM.

[SunChaser]

Caffeine is a stimulant drug that is tolerance building and discontinuing heavy use commonly leads to withdrawal symptoms such as those described above, it is not just psychological just because you do not experience the effects of withdrawal.

Did you actually read my last post? Because just to clear up, I did clearly state in my last post that in the past I did in fact suffer fairly severe symptoms from not getting my caffeine hit, when I was younger and was not adequately taking care of my wellbeing. It's just now that I take special care of my nutrition, that I seem to be able to go for long periods of consuming large amounts of caffeine and can stop abruptly without any negative side effects.

Not looking for a argument and don't take it as a personal attack. Just pointing out that it's not that my body has never experienced these side effects, as you claimed. It's just that (for me personally, at least) a healthy diet seems to eliminate these negative symptoms.

But everyones different, I completely realize that. lol, although seriously, I don't think anyone could deny that the more you sit around thinking about how addictive caffeine is, the worst the withdrawal symptoms a going to be. I think the same could be said about any drug on that note.

Peace

[chnt]

I'm still not completely convinced that caffeine is this dangerously addictive drug that people claim it to be. I mean, obviously I've known a few people who claim to get withdrawals symptoms from not getting there daily coffee hits. But I doubt there's any actual brain chemistry going on that's actually causing the addiction, but rather people convince themselves they need it, which causes a psychological addiction.

Also, just like cannabis, some people might be using coffee to relieve the symptoms of other conditions so that when they stop, they start getting the symptoms of the condition they were using the substance for in the first place.

With coffee these so called withdrawal symptoms, would probably be due to a bad diet, lack of sleep or not enough water. I mean, I know some people here who have claimed to be caffeine addicts will want to come out telling me about how brilliant there diets are and how they sleep for 9 hours straight every night. But in my experience, it just isn't the case with people who claim to be addicted to caffeine.

Just thinking back now, I actually remember years ago I'd be dry reaching and ready to pass out from dizziness on my way to work, if I didn't stop at my local servo for an iced coffee, first thing in the morning. I'd also feel like shit if I didn't continue drinking sugar drenched energy drinks though out the day. But back then I never used to even give a second thought to what I put in my body and certainly didn't concern myself with getting the right amount of vitamins and all the rest. But now I try to take care of myself, I can go from over 600mg of caffeine a day for long periods, to nothing, without any of these so called "withdrawal symptoms". It's not like I don't have an addictive personality either, I'm seriously a person who usually gets psychologically addicted to everything I enjoy and I do love the feeling I get from dropping 4 no doz pills, first thing in the morning.

lol, it would not be a smart thing to be anywhere near me when I have no tobacco, even for an hour. I'm talking an 'extremely' short temper, major body aches and debilitating depression & anxiety. Basically I feel like my whole bodies shutting down without tobacco.

Anyway, personally I think it would be an interesting experiment to see if people who claim to be addicted to coffee got any relief from just dropping 1 no doz pill instead?

btw, it ain't a myth amanito. Ask anyone who's at the peak of there fitness, we are not koalas! The human body needs large amounts of straight water everyday to be able to operate at full capacity. But, whatever brother.

Peace

i may not be entirely convinced the earth is round (or spherical) but rather flat, but my conviction is completely 100% redundant.
likewise, your conviction or lack of is also redundant, inane... firstly, the only person who has said caffeine is "dangerously addictive" is you. secondly, regardless of your opinion, and regardless of what safeway says (do you seriously consider them a credible source?), caffeine:
a) causes psychological dependence.
b ) causes physical dependence.
c) causes withdrawal symptoms (X hours after cessation, if physical dependence has developed)
d) the earth is spherical

you and your phd in pharmacology and your other phd in brain function, and psychology doubt that there's any actual brain chemistry going on that's actually causing the addiction, as an omniscient being, you know that people convince themselves they need it.

by the way, i learned that caffeine caused physical dependence after i had become dependent on caffeine, and i learned that it caused withdrawals halfway through experiencing them, back then i had no idea about physical dependence and withdrawals.

i'm sure many people that became physically and psychologically dependent to benzos after their trigger happy GP gave them half a dozen scripts had no idea that benzos caused these dependences.

i see you're also a dietician and a sleep specialist, and you clearly show your deep understanding of the difference between physical and psychological dependence here:

"I can go from over 600mg of caffeine a day for long periods, to nothing, without any of these so called "withdrawal symptoms". It's not like I don't have an addictive personality either, I'm seriously a person who usually gets psychologically addicted to everything I enjoy and I do love the feeling I get from dropping 4 no doz pills, first thing in the morning."


it seems as though you allegedly have a physical and a psychological dependence to tobacco, but i'm not entirely convinced that tobacco even causes these dependences.

what are you even contributing to this thread? there's a guy here who's suffering from debilitating caffeine dependence and you're trying to say that it's not even real, that he's just making it up. do you tell people with bipolar disorder or schizophrenia that they are just imagining things also? what about people with asbestosis?

get a grip man.

Edited by chnt, 05 February 2012 - 06:55 AM.

[chnt]

Did you actually read my last post? Because just to clear up, I did clearly state in my last post that in the past I did in fact suffer fairly severe symptoms from not getting my caffeine hit, when I was younger and was not adequately taking care of my wellbeing. It's just now that I take special care of my nutrition, that I seem to be able to go for long periods of consuming large amounts of caffeine and can stop abruptly without any negative side effects.

Not looking for a argument and don't take it as a personal attack. Just pointing out that it's not that my body has never experienced these side effects, as you claimed. It's just that (for me personally, at least) a healthy diet seems to eliminate these negative symptoms.

But everyones different, I completely realize that. lol, although seriously, I don't think anyone could deny that the more you sit around thinking about how addictive caffeine is, the worst the withdrawal symptoms a going to be. I think the same could be said about any drug on that note.

Peace

do you tell yourself this "I take special care of my nutrition" every time you light up a cigarette?
and what evidence is there to suggest this "the more you sit around thinking about how addictive caffeine is, the worst the withdrawal symptoms a going to be."?

[SunChaser]

Another poorly thought out post cnht, purely for the purpose of attacking!

Firstly, Safeway don't have a single say in what drugs are classified safe enough to be unregulated and stocked on the shelves and freely available to the public without restrictions, nor what warning labels these drugs have to have on there packs and I also never claimed they did. So I find it odd that you think it intelligent to be ranting on about what Safeway thinks.

Secondly, The spherical shape of the earth has been determined from thousands of years of accumulated scientific research. So yeah, your opinion of the world being flat is completely irrelevant.

Thirdly, people who are prescribed benzodiazepines should be more than aware of there extremely addictive nature. Firstly by the fact that they are extremely regulated, both the GP and pharmacist by law have the responsibility to inform the patient of this fact. Not to mention that there physically additive nature is clearly stated, not only the pack, but on the sticker the pharmacist puts on the pack which indicates the dosage prescribed by the GP and also in the pamphlet contained inside the pack.

I could probably pick your post apart far more. But honestly, I have far more important things to do than argue with people posting random BS just to try and top up there post count.      

Edited by jabez, 05 February 2012 - 07:34 AM.

[chnt]

Another poorly thought out post cnht, purely for the purpose of attacking!

Firstly, Safeway don't have a single say in what drugs are classified safe enough to be unregulated and stocked on the shelves and freely available to the public without restrictions, nor what warning labels these drugs have to have on there packs and I also never claimed they did. So I find it odd that you think it intelligent to be ranting on about what Safeway thinks.

Secondly, The spherical shape of the earth has been determined from thousands of years of accumulated scientific research. So yeah, your opinion of the world being flat is completely irrelevant.

Thirdly, people who are prescribed benzodiazepines should be more than aware of there extremely addictive nature. Firstly by the fact that they are extremely regulated, both the GP and pharmacist by law have the responsibility to inform the patient of this fact. Not to mention that there physically additive nature is clearly stated, not only the pack, but on the sticker the pharmacist puts on the pack which indicates the dosage prescribed by the GP and also in the pamphlet contained inside the pack.

I could probably pick your post apart far more. But honestly, I have far more important things to do than argue with people posting random BS just to try and top up there post count.

yes yes, the age old poorly thought out post by cnht, yes it is i who is not thinking about things as much as i should be.

did you know that safeway also sells ibuprofen, completely unregulated, did you know that ibuprofen can fuck with one's stomach?


"Secondly, The spherical shape of the earth has been determined from thousands of years of accumulated scientific research. So yeah, your opinion of the world being flat is completely irrelevant."

i see my off handed comment went WAY WAY WAY over your head.

yes people that are prescribed benzos SHOULD be aware of what they can do, but that doesn't mean these people are aware, one such example was when my partner was prescribed xanax, and was told to take up to 6 a day, she was given 4 repeats, no warnings at all, nothing...

when ever i've been prescribed benzos in the past, each packet has had a sticker attached to it, i agree with you there, but the only thing it said was that "this medicine may cause drowsiness" and some shit about being careful with machinery, nothing about its potential to cause dependence (supposedly, i'm not entirely convinced this dependence is real though)

attack the community then play the victim, i like your style.

you're such a joker

Edited by chnt, 05 February 2012 - 07:54 AM.

[gwalchgwyn]

strong drug, coffee, one with the PR of sobering to the extent that people actually experience its near constant presence as a ground state, the drug of governments and big business: free for the greatful unsuspecting slurpers... never mind the destructive sociality of coming down...

but seriously if one is interested in dropping it I offer this from my trials: after reckognizing coffee's strength as a drug, I then made it a reward for an event: a visit to a friend's, or a pleasant sunny spring saturday. though still dependent on withdrawal symptoms, the spacing of imbibing I feel gives my body more autonomy, the upper hand so to speak; for a more regular stimulation I've moved to Yerba Mate, Ilex paraguaensis, that I understand has a variant to caffeine (matteine). Whatever its constituency, Mate gives me physical alertness and mental clarity without the edgy euphoria and crashing irritability of coffee...

Cheers!

Edited by gwalchgwyn, 26 February 2012 - 05:09 AM.

[Distracted]

Anyway, personally I think it would be an interesting experiment to see if people who claim to be addicted to coffee got any relief from just dropping 1 no doz pill instead?

Probably the best sentence in this thread imo
Ive met quite a few people who claim to get no effect off caffeine tablets but get high off coffee/energy drinks...

[FancyPants]

I've definitely had noticeble effects from two no doz extra strength tablets (as a regular tea drinker and at that time no other drugs besides alcohol and herb), jittery, aggro, and eventual headache and comedown.

I still think slow withdrawal (as I suggested in my first post, whatever the method thank you whoever it was for pointing out not everyone drinks instant coffee... no shit) from caffeine and replacing with what others have suggested yerba for alertness (love the stuff), or just a good loose leaf tea (according to taste) would be the way to approach more comfortable caffeine addiction levels.

[chnt]

haha apologies fancy, i can be a douche like that, i passionately loathe instant is all.

[FancyPants]

All good chnt certainly given a choice I'd go for a pot of coffee but my lazy ass just makes instant lol My boyfriend drinks (weak as piss) mild roast with half a cup of skim milk and I just don't see the point

Edit: Eww no it's full cream for me, too. A2 preferably, and none of that added vitamin mineral shit either... just take a supplement people!

Edited by FancyPants, 05 February 2012 - 10:23 AM.

[Psylo]

Skim milk, WTF is that !?!?!? It's either full cream milk or no milk at all.

Goat milk.. is acceptable.. to Psylo

I usually only drink coffee on a Saturday, and when I do, its five cups within 2 hours, and about 10 cigarettes in the same period. It fucking ruins me.

[chnt]

i use margaret river organic unhomogenised milk which costs 20c more than A2, which is my alternative source.

i would be interested in trying goat milk.

my room mate uses hi lo for his breakfast cereal and complains about how he hates the taste of milk... (no comment)

psylo i recommend watching coffee and cigarettes if you have not already.

[ThunderIdeal]

"I doubt there's any actual brain chemistry going on that's actually causing the addiction, but rather people convince themselves they need it, which causes a psychological addiction."

a few posts before you said that zen peddler seems to have explained the brain chemistry. if your point was that poor diet contributes to withdrawals, you could've went about saying so differently, without all of the accusations of psychological addiction. actually, dehydration and psychological addiction is where you began "debunking" caffeine addiction.
<p>there's nothing%2

[poisonshroom]

I have to agree with the people suggesting tea as a substitute to try and cut back - If you drink green tea or tea without milk your getting twice as much water than coffee or tea with milk, which will help offset the dehydration caused by the diuretic effect of the caffeine. Also you should try and replace at least a few of your caffeinated drinks with a glass of water or gatorade or similar, and put a limit on the latest you can drink coffee. I find if i drink coffee after around lunch time I cant get to sleep till early in the morning, even though a lunch time coffee doesnt give me much of a noticeable buzz. I dont think 1 or 2 coffees or teas in the morning is all that bad for your health (maybe even good for you due to the anti-oxidants and such), but as everyone has said the dehydration from lack of plain water and the effect all that caffeine will have on your heart is not worth it. Also in the evening when you stop drinking the coffee you should drink lots of water to rehydrate.

Ps loving the coffee and cigarettes references anyone who hasnt seen that movie definitely needs to watch it

[chnt]

i love you ps.

[whitewind]

What the f*ck is A2 milk? Is it genetically modified or what?

I'm feeling sorry for Jabez he's being nailed really hard for what he said. But that's the difference between personal experience and general effects - no-one is the same. Coffee withdrawal hits me quite hard, but usually for only a few days. I can't be arsed to give it up properly, I love the taste, but I limit it to 3 per day, and none after 5pm (preferably sooner, depending on how knackered I am). It's most certainly addictive and has significant effects on the body, but it's clearly not on the same level as nicotine - I know, 3 years later I'm still on the patches. Even then, some people seem to be able to quit nicotine very easily, and others who smoke socially but never attain the habit I had.

[whitewind]

ps I love you too

[Gúzmann]

I wonder what would happen if all the countries that grow and export coffee were to place an embargo. Most of western business and industry would grind to a halt (pun intended ).

I guess taking control of the world is not that hard after all.

Attached Files

•  Drink-Coffee-Magnet-C11750048.jpg   42.04K   3 downloads

[ThunderIdeal]

"I doubt there's any actual brain chemistry going on that's actually causing the addiction, but rather people convince themselves they need it, which causes a psychological addiction."

a few posts before you said that zen peddler seems to have explained the brain chemistry. if your point was that poor diet contributes to withdrawals, you could've went about saying so differently, without all of the accusations of psychological addiction. actually, dehydration and psychological addiction is where you began "debunking" caffeine addiction.
<p>there's nothing%2

ummm what

i'm pretty sure this post wasn't garbled when i posted it.

my post went on to agree with jabez about hydration being an important issue and speculated that a coffee addiction might have a sugar addiction piggybacking on it.

I wonder what would happen if all the countries that grow and export coffee were to place an embargo. Most of western business and industry would grind to a halt (pun intended ).

I guess taking control of the world is not that hard after all.

nations have been born and destroyed because of coffee. centuries ago the coffee trade was a major fucking deal.

Edited by ThunderIdeal, 05 February 2012 - 12:55 PM.

[whitewind]

nations have been born and destroyed because of coffee. centuries ago the coffee trade was a major fucking deal.

Nowadays we still have nations destroyed because of the trade in plants. Afghanistan, Columbia are two current wars that spring to mind. Then there were the tribes destroyed in Africa by the slave trade to grow sugar in the Caribbean, China's suffering and the Opium Wars, Nutmeg (Nutmeg!!) (NUTMEG!!!) and the fucking British and the Irish Potato Famine.

We also have the war on medicinal plants happening right under our noses where people can be jailed for growing and selling fairly innocuous stuff because the major pharmaceutical companies want to control anything they think they can make money from.

Off topic, but I needed to get that off my chest ;)

[Zen Peddler BlueGreenie]

it has to be physical withdrawals if there are alterations in various receptors and the release of a specific neurotransmitter.

But this is the finest coffee I have ever had the benefit of trying:

https://www.coffeetr...t/grizzly-blend

[curaezipirid]

Caffiene is hard to get clean from all the way.

I found it harder than: cannabis; tobacco; opiates (although didn't ever have that much, so were my easiest to get clean from); alcohol; and entheogen of other kind.

Only thing I find harder to quit than coffee, is chocolate.
Gives me headaches etc too. BUT, I am down to a once a week bust on chocolate already, after coffee having lead me all the way back into the worst my drug habits ever got, early last year.

This is the thing, right, most of us took a sample of caffiene too young, and so our bodies grew and developed around anticipating there could be more in future. Changing that, is why it can be fully fully too tiring to detoxify caffienes all the way. Normally we get told that caffiene was not such a bad addiction, but then again, Sigmund Freud was a cocain addict, and said the same of cocaine.

What I found so hard about having to give coffee up, is that it is so so hard to just move in the morning, and so so so hard to get to the gym, and so easy to drink a cuppa. But it is the same psychology as any addiction, that traps us in to it.

How to get out of it, is by causing the body to develop clear associations with that draining feeling of caffiene withdrawal, whenever we crave it, before having a cuppa. Then have water instead. Or a dandelion root extract, with milk and sugar in it, so we don't have to worry about missing out on a nice hot cuppa, as well as missing out on the caffiene urge. Try making a plan for every morning, for one task you will do instead of the first cuppa of the day, and see what happens next.

I could add, you might need to quit the alcohol first, and drink more water, but I am sure you already know that, right? Just try to set yourself the goal, of doing one task, before your first cuppa, of every morning, and come back into the thread to tell us how bad the caffiene withdrawal can be.

[Zen Peddler BlueGreenie]

8 coffees a day is an insane intake. Wow.

I go to this doctor that guarantees me that in ten years time there will be overwhelmeing evidence that coffee in particular but all caffeine is bad for the health - be believes in relation to depression, allergies and cardio-vascular health. But above all he thinks it causes pancreatic cancer.

I only drink on the weekends and tend to get that kind of wired/tired feeling. Gives me a headache if I drink it during the week at work on the comp for some reason.