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Transcendent Compounds: Win with the Victorian Government and request for assistance.


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#1 GregKasarik

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 01:37 PM

Hiyall,

I had a very surprising and welcome Christmas present from the Victorian Department of Health. It reads as follows:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Mr Kasarik

Thank you for your emails of 8 November 2011. I apologise for the delay in responding.

I have considered the issues you have raised and advise that the position of the department remains unchanged. The department is also not in a position to undertake research into these compounds but would be interested to see any new peer-reviewed research.

I trust your participation at the Ethnogenesis Australis conference was inspiring and engaging.

Regards

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is much better than I had hoped to receive. Yes, they indicated that the position of the Department has not changed, but by the same token, they are also indicating a willingness to review the literature.
It is a huge turnaround, both in tone and content, from the previous letter (dated 21 Oct 11), which can be found here:
http://www.kasarik.c...respondence.php

In order to ensure that I put the best case possible, I am asking that people provide me with whatever potentially useful peer reviewed publications they might be aware of. While I have quite a bit, there is certainly much that I am not aware of and some of that could be very useful indeed.

Accordingly, I am asking for people to forward me peer reviewed articles that address issues of toxicity, addictive potential and psychological effects for each of the following Transcendent Compounds:

DMT
Mescaline
Psilocybin
LSD
Salvinorin A

I know that they indicated "new" research, but as I doubt the department has ever looked into this issue before (at least not from the context of them being Transcendent Compounds for use within religious practice), I'm after whatever research happens to be out there, irrespective of how old it is. We all know that there hasn't been any real research on most of these in decades and the toxicology and addiction research was often done decades ago.

By all means pass this on to people who might have the information, but might not be on the forum.

Greg


PS. I intend to write up the research into a literature review of sorts and post it online as a convenient reference for everybody to use.

#2 chnt

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 02:35 PM

good luck, i'll try find something
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#3 CβL

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 02:41 PM

I'm sure you are aware of David Nutt's seminal paper (the 4th definition, not the 1st). As much I highly agree with its content, it could be too blunt to serve your purpose.

That's about all I have to add for now. My main computer has all my research, but it's currently relegated to "entertainment unit" for the flatmates. :/

#4 faustus

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 04:16 PM

greg i think the title of your post is a little misleading, or you've lowered your standards of what actually constitutes a win.


regardless, here's some papers that may help you get started:

Attached File  ayahuasca 1.pdf   677.93KB   6 downloads

Attached File  ayahuasca 2.pdf   1.04MB   4 downloads

Attached File  ayahuasca 3.pdf   939.99KB   2 downloads

Attached File  ayahuasca 4.pdf   432.2KB   2 downloads

Attached File  ayahuasca 5.pdf   774.33KB   2 downloads

Attached File  mescaline.pdf   150.51KB   4 downloads


as you can see, the vast majority of the papers are on ayahuasca. this underscores my suggestion in your previous thread about choosing one candidate compound rather than several ones. the best compound in terms of empirical evidence of evoking mystical experiences will be psilocybin. when it comes to toxicology etc, it'll most likely be ayahuasca. the added benefit of ayahuasca over psilocybin is also the fact that ayahuasca is protected under the religious freedom restoration act in the US.

if you contacted someone from sainto daime, or someone like bob jesse from the council of spiritual practises, or looked on the MAPS reference library http://www.maps.org/research/ you'd find some sort of literature review on safety that would have been submitted to the FDA when they were defending ayahuasca in court.

Edited by faustus, 16 January 2012 - 04:19 PM.

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#5 Psylo

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 08:16 PM

/ my suggestion in your previous thread about choosing one candidate compound rather than several ones. /


I somewhat agree with this. Or at the very least forget about LSD, due to the widespread recognition of the term as a 'drug' amongst laymen. For similar reasons, psylocibin will inevitably be thrown in to the ring of judgment as recollections of kids picking magic mushrooms comes to mind. Salvinorin A will be linked back to the million youtube videos of people smoking through a bong, not a good image either.

Honestly, I would suggest ayahuasca as your primary focus. Theres no cross-contamination in peoples minds about it being 'drugs', and there are recognized spiritual organizations using the brew as sacrament. You could cite much from Santo Daime or UDV's past legal wrangle experience in having aya recognised.
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#6 Frank leDank

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 02:31 AM

good luck greg! you are our champion

do you advise others to write to ministers with similar letters to yourself? or do you think this would somehow be counterproductive?


on the topic; do you have access to journal databases? i had a pretty comprehensive one from being at university, but it may have expired since i am not enrolled this year. i will try at a more sane hour to see if i have been disconnected or not. if not i will comb the desert to find some articles. if practical, could you post up your bibliography to insure against doubling up?

also i hope sasha was okay after that bout of...food poisoning :s silly thing
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#7 Undercover Hippie

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 08:36 PM

Sorry, not exactly what you’re asking for - but it may help with the context and be useful because of its recent publication date...

From this recent (2011-1) issue of Acta Medical Bulgarica published by the Medical University of Sofia (Bulgaria):

PSYCHOACTIVE SUBSTANCES IN DIFFERENT CULTURES AND RELIGIOUS PRACTICES

http://www.medun.aca...html#abstract16

J. Radenkova(1), E. Saeva(2) and V. Saev(2)

(1)Toxicology Clinic, Emergency Medicine Institute “N. I. P irogov” – Sofia
(2)University “La Sapienza” – Rome


Summary. Many drugs are used for their mood and perception change effects, including those with accepted uses in medicine and psychiatry. There is archaeological evidence for the use of psychoactive substances dating back at least 10 000 years, as well as historical data for cultural purposes in the last 5000 years. Some psychoactives, particularly hallucinogens, have been used for religious purposes since prehistoric times. Examples of traditional entheogens include: kykeon, ambrosia, iboga, soma, peyote, ayahuasca. Other traditional entheogens include cannabis, ethanol, ergine, psilocybe mushrooms, opium. Although entheogens are taboo and most of them are officially banned in Christian and Islamic societies, their ubiquity and importance in terms of different spiritual traditions of other cultures is unquestioned.
Key words: psychoactive substances, drugs, entheogens, hallucinogens

PS What kind of time frame are you looking to collect these things in?

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#8 SunChaser

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 09:35 AM

Yeah, I gotta say Gregory that is pretty much just a courtesy letter more than anything else. In my personal experience they only send one, then don't usually reply back after that.

I also don't personally think the success they've had in the US with peyote or aya in south America has had any positive influence on drug law policy overall for your average person. I mean to me it's as if the governments of these countries have allowed it for the minority, simply so they can continue criminalizing the majority without being hassled about infringing on peoples religious freedoms.

Also, as I've pointed out a few times and as the letter seemed to imply, the Victorian government simply doesn't have the power to override federal law or international treaties, even if they wanted to.

But if your still determined to continue on with it, I'd forget about LSD (my favorite drug in the world) it's just got to much of a negative rep, mostly thanks to Timothy Leary and all those other hippies from the 60's who tried convincing everyone you could gain a superior insight to the world for just a few dollars. It can also cause some very toxic effects in some individuals, I've seen it with my own eyes.

Also Salvia, or salvinorin A in my personal experience can in no way be considered mystical. I mean it just puts you into a meaningless cartoon dream world for a few minutes. Even the DEA treat it as a kind of meaningless joke. I am interested to know why you have decided to include it in your list of "transcendent compounds"? Although I do realize it could hardly be considered toxic.

I can't say a whole lot about Ayahuasca, since I've never had an experienced person introduce it to me and to be honest simply don't have the balls to just go out and experience it on my own. But (and correct me if I'm wrong) to me it would be a bit dicey to go with that if your using science to prove your point, since Ayahuasca is just a name for a brew which contains DMT and can be made from plants containing other alkaloids. Which would make it hard to prove it's benefits or (non) toxic effects on a scientific basis. Obviously there's something very special about the actual chemical DMT, which plays a huge role into what makes us human that we don't yet understand. But Dr Rick strassmans research on this amazing chemical, which from my understanding is the most in-depth research done on DMT, is very inconclusive. So you'll probably hit a brick wall there too. Let's not also forget that DMT is just simply to powerful for the majority of people to have a positive experience from it.

Personally, if I were you I'd go with psilocybin. It is (apart from maybe salvinorin) the only drug in your list that could be considered a soft drug and therefore the least toxic and it does seem to consistently produce in a lot of people what what some would consider a mystical experience, without the overwhelming intensity. 

I'm out bush right now, so I don't have a infinite power source to resource it myself, but there's a documentary called 'LSD, The beyond within' where they talk about a study that was done in the 50's (I think) where they gave a bunch of Christian priest psilocybin and most of them claimed to experience a mystical experience, with was indistinguishable from a true Christian mystical experience. 

I don't know if these priest are still alive and kicking, but if they were and it was possible for you to some how get into contact them and to get a written confirmation of there experience, then I think you'd be on the right track. I mean let's face facts, no god fearing hick Australian government official is honestly going to treat some shaman living in the jungle, who claims to talk to spirits from drinking some plant brew seriously. But, if you could show these same government officials confirmation that christian priests have taken psilocybin in tablet form and experienced what they believe was a truly religious experience, then maybe you might get some traction.

Although, having said all that, I'm not the sort of person who mixes words. I still think what your doing is a little bit backwards and complete BS and simply won't work in a country like Australia. But your clearly passionate about the issue and have seemed to take the criticism a lot better than I would, so you do have my respect on that front.

So good luck with it and I hope you don't let people drain that passionate personality of yours.

Peace 

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#9 chnt

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 12:22 PM

i dont think it would be accurate to say that something IS a certain way just because it was like that for you.

i'm referring to this "Also Salvia, or salvinorin A in my personal experience can in no way be considered mystical"
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#10 SunChaser

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 02:56 PM

i dont think it would be accurate to say that something IS a certain way just because it was like that for you.

i'm referring to this "Also Salvia, or salvinorin A in my personal experience can in no way be considered mystical"


True dat! 

But in my defense, I never claimed it as an infinite truth. Simply gave my opinion and pointed out that even the DEA don't think salvia has the same potential as other psychedelics to induce a higher consciousness.

Which is why I'm interested to know why it was included in the list with these other amazing substances which clearly do have the potential of inducing a higher awareness of reality.

Peace

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#11 chnt

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 03:26 PM

the DEA can go fuck themselves, why does their opinion count?

many people use salvia as an entheogen, traditionally and also in modern times.

http://www.sagewisdom.org/index.html
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#12 SunChaser

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 05:02 PM

lol, fair enough.

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#13 chnt

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 05:20 PM

sall good bro
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#14 faustus

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 05:42 PM

i dont think it would be accurate to say that something IS a certain way just because it was like that for you.
i'm referring to this "Also Salvia, or salvinorin A in my personal experience can in no way be considered mystical"


completely true. in fact, there's an interesting 2011 study by johnson et al. which seems to indicate that it does evoke mystical experiences.

I don't know if these priest are still alive and kicking, but if they were and it was possible for you to some how get into contact them and to get a written confirmation of there experience, then I think you'd be on the right track.


rick doblin did just that, and wrote a 25 year follow up to the original good friday experiment: Attached File  doblin.pdf   1.65MB   5 downloads

the findings are all pretty much as you'd expect, though doblin did go to uncover that the original researcher pahnke was a bit of a dicey cunt and selectively omitted some of his findings involving one of the participants who lost his shit and needed antipsychotics.
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#15 Seldom

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 05:43 PM

i've got access to a good number of databases through uni, i'll have a squiz and report back soon
good to see you're making progress Greg




edit* after a brief look around, the immediate question is how selective are you going to be in the literature review? i don't want to be a pin in the balloon, but i have to ask you Greg how competent are you in academic publication? what are your credentials? have you published before?
peer reviewed work i'm finding through PsycARTICLES, PsycCritiques, ProQuest, etc falls on both sides of the line. if you don't include studies demonstrating negative consequences, anyone with pretty much any academic background reviewing your paper will not accept it's conclusions
my advice is if you really think you have a 'win' here, and you have a background in academic publishing, get ready to do alot of legwork; if not, find someone who can. it's an impossible task to do a single adequate literature review for DMT, Mescaline, Psilocybin, LSD and Salvinorin A without writing a book

Edited by bulls on parade, 19 January 2012 - 08:34 PM.


#16 ∂an

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 06:21 AM

I somewhat agree with this. Or at the very least forget about LSD, due to the widespread recognition of the term as a 'drug' amongst laymen. For similar reasons, psylocibin will inevitably be thrown in to the ring of judgment as recollections of kids picking magic mushrooms comes to mind. Salvinorin A will be linked back to the million youtube videos of people smoking through a bong, not a good image either.

Honestly, I would suggest ayahuasca as your primary focus. Theres no cross-contamination in peoples minds about it being 'drugs', and there are recognized spiritual organizations using the brew as sacrament. You could cite much from Santo Daime or UDV's past legal wrangle experience in having aya recognised.


totally agree. ayahuasca is a good candidate as it has both a long history of human usage and is biological in origin (as opposed to synthetics like LSD). plus the similarity with brain chemistry (NN-DMT and beta-carbolines) is a compelling argument against prohibition, in my mind... pun intended.

Edited by kalika, 20 January 2012 - 06:22 AM.

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#17 Psylo

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 12:52 PM

I'm interested to hear Greg's viewpoint on the single compound path suggested here......... and if it had to be one, which would he nominate, and why?
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#18 rahli

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Posted 21 January 2012 - 07:56 PM

I think the greatest issue with including LSD on the list of transient compounds is that currently it is only sourced through the international illicit drug market. If the government were to approve the use of LSD within a spiritual context they would also be condoning the procurement of this substance. This means they would have to take on the role of regulating the production and supply for legitimate use or risk making policy that relies on financially supporting the international illicit drug market.

In my opinion one of the beauties of plant entheogens or transient compounds if you will, is that folks need not rely on illicit drug markets or worry themselves with what their money is supporting. This is because the self sufficiency given to those that take on this path with the devotion of spiritual guidance, sees production of these sacrament staying outside that of the illicit drug market. Condoning the use of Ayahuasca, Cactus and Mushrooms means that the government can allow you to continue growing and consuming plants and fungus that you grow on your own property.

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#19 GregKasarik

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 09:42 PM

Sorry for taking so long to repost. Thanks everyone for the contributions! There is much here that I wasn't aware of and it is taking some time to read and assimilate it all.

With respect to particular compounds:

I am running with all of those that I have identified as "Transcendent Compounds", because they are all important to different members of the community and are all used entheogenically.

In putting forward my argument, I am arguing for an entirely new class of substances that I have called, "Transcendent Compounds". If I only argue for one compound, I have already shot myself in the foot by implying that the others are somehow too dodgy to get over the line. I have no intention of coming back to the government time, after time in order to argue for new compounds. Apart from anything it would be a waste of time and resources.

Please remember that the most important thing when entering into negotiations is to never, under any circumstances, pre-emptively concede to your opponents position. Sure, if the government wants to make a case that one of the compounds shouldn't be on the list, they are welcome to do so. But I am not going to make their job any easier.

LSD will most definitely stay on the list. Not only is there ample research to back its inclusion as a Transcendent Compound, but physiologically, it is the safest on the list. If anything were to come off, it would be Salvia, simply because there hasn't been that much research conducted on it.


@ Faustus. You are probably right about me lowering my standards about what constitutes a "win". But given the size of the task ahead of me, I am happy with any progress and a willingness to review the literature is certainly a step in the right direction.

I did say that I'd be happy to take them through court and force them to demonstrate the "health and safety" issues they claimed to be concerned about, so they might simply be wanting to call my bluff, with respect to the quality of the published literature. But as you know, the science is firmly on our side, particularly with respect to regulated access for religious practice. Certainly, they might ignore what I'll eventually send them, but I think they'll have a difficult time doing so, particularly in light of the fact that it is their job to give the Government an accurate assessment of the data.

@ Frank. Yes! The more people who contact the government on this issue, the greater the likelihood that they will act in line with our interests. Feel free to use my letters as a basis for your own, although make sure you use your own words. Feel free to bounce them to me if you want them checked over.

Also, although it is difficult to get to, I have occasional access to the public terminal at Monash University's library, which should be sufficient for my needs. Thanks for the offer.

@ Jabez. This is the second letter that I have received from the Department of Health. The first letter was the sort that you describe and was signed by a functionary. But this came directly from the manager of the Departmental Division that is responsible for this sort of thing, which means that this is a more serious response than the last. The Division manager would not indicate that they were prepared to review the literature unless they were serious about doing so. Not only this, but the letter included a personal touch, which is exactly the sort of thing that you don't include if you are trying to simply brush someone off.

You may be right that the US experience will not have any impact on ours. But it certainly can't hurt.

The Victorian Government doesn't need to override anyone, as it is the States, not the Commonwealth, who have constitutional powers with respect to drugs laws. The Commonwealth only has powers with respect to those areas specified in the Constitution, so they can prohibit the import of compounds, with respect to their customs powers, but cannot make them illegal within the States.

For an official explanation of this, read the section entitled "Comonwealth Legislative Powers" and "The States and their Legislative Powers" on page 8-9 of the copy of the Australian Consitution published by the Attorney General's Department that I've attached. Certainly, states can "cede" powers to the Federal Government simply by writing a law that says that their laws mirror a particular piece of Federal Law, but this can just as easily be undone.

International Treaties are also not a problem, as they contain clauses to allow for cultural and religious practices, which is why mescaline, salvia, psilocybin and DMT are still legal in various countries. Additionally, there are also several treaties that specifically guarantee religious freedoms and while they might not be fully enforceable, the fact that they exist is significant.

And thanks for the positive vibes! :-)

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#20 GregKasarik

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 10:02 PM

@ Bulls on Parade. I have an Honours Degree in Psychology, but beyond that I have no experience in writing up these things. But having said that, I am not looking to publish in a peer reviewed journal. What I'd be looking to do would probably be more like writing explanatory notes and very well may turn into a book (a short one!).

I am especially interested in articles that are negative, as I will need to know what sort of objections I will need to overcome in order to make my case and nearly everything that I have reflects positively on the compounds.

At first I was simply going to dump a whole lot of articles on them and expect them to go through them, but I realised that a better way would be to walk them through the various papers in order to explain their significance. It is a very daunting task, and at the moment, I'm thinking of submitting something similar to Nichol's "Hallucinogens", but without the chemistry, or neuropsych elements, as these are really outside of my area of expertise and knowledge.

Ultimately, I don't think that I need to lay everything out for them in the first instance. Rather, I'm looking to demonstrate to them that I have a case solid enough to take before a court, in order to force the Government into action.

@ Rahli. My request to the government is for "regulated" access to these compounds, not simply decriminalisation. This means that the Government will have to guarantee mechanisms by which these compounds can be obtained and in the current situation this would entail licencing production of LSD within the State of Victoria.

How it would go with plant compounds is debatable (regulated farming vs synthetic manufacture vs self grown) and is probably something that we should discuss as a community in some length.

#21 GregKasarik

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 10:43 PM

I'm interested to hear Greg's viewpoint on the single compound path suggested here......... and if it had to be one, which would he nominate, and why?


If it came down to a single compound, I'd go with psilocybin because it is so user friendly and the aim of this game has to be to maximise the number of people who can experience the benefits of the compound.

Unlike DMT and Mescaline, it won't make you nauseous, or vomit, which is vital if we want a compound that sick, injured, or older people can use. Vomitage also really limits your options for indoor consumption during really hot, or really cold times of the year.

There are also no real issues with preparation, or having to worry about a MAO inhibitor, or having to smoke something that tastes like plastic.

Mushrooms also taste like cardboard, which is a distinct improvement on both cactus and ayahuasca. If you don't like eating cardboard, they can even be mixed into whatever food you want and eaten without gagging. This is nice.

Compared to LSD and Mescaline, it also has a nice short duration, which is reassuring for people who are concerned they might have a negative experience.

Salvia is mostly smoked, which places it off limits for many and vapourisors can be an expensive annoyance to some. Many people report that it is also just plain weird in a way that the other compounds aren't.

Many people find DMT to be very hard core and there are quite a few members of the Entheogenic Community who chose not to use it, whereas the vast majority would use psilocybin if it were on offer. Out of curiosity, anyone here know anyone in the Entheogenic Community who wouldn't use mushrooms and why this might be so?

Also, the general consensus amongst people seems to be that psilocybin is the best compound to start with. In many ways starting with psilocybin has been compared to learning to swim in the kiddies pool, but it has an impressive enough kick when you up the dose.

Sadly, psilocybin hasn't had any effect on me since about June last year (anyone else experienced something similar, or am I just weird?). So if it were about me I'd go with LSD, which is my favourite compound due to its length of action, power, ease of administration and portability.

Edited by GregKasarik, 26 January 2012 - 10:54 PM.


#22 GregKasarik

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 10:45 PM

Oh. And did I mention that dogs also like to eat aforementioned vomitage...

#23 GregKasarik

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 10:48 PM

@ Undercover Hippie.

That article looks to be just the sort of thing that I am looking for. The cultural and religious aspects are just as important to my case as the physiological and psychological. Is it in English?

The time frame that I'm looking at is variable. Initially, I had thought I'd just do a data dump on them and be done with it, but I've since decided that I'll put in a bit more effort than that. At this stage, I'm not expecting to be submitting anything before the end of February, although if I get a rocket up me, or outside help, I might very well be done sooner.

#24 Psylo

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 07:08 PM

Greg,

The major hurdle in pushing for a legislation review pertaining to several of your listed Transcendent Compounds is that not only are you seeking a repeal of the present laws relating to consumption of entheogens, but a reversal of an Act which, in some instances, specifically prohibits the cultivation of flora.

I believe that you should forget about sp. Divinorum. It would only take a quick visit to youtube for a stuffy Parliamentarian to cast judgement based upon the hundreds of irresponsible teenage experiences captured on film. When they see such widespread irresponsible usage by young people, you can kiss the whole project goodbye concerning any other Transcendent Compounds. And, as you stated, studies of salvinorin A are scant, so a credible evidence-based submission on your behalf would be dangerously vague. Salvia divinorum appears to be a shabby model as a Transcendent Compound in which to base your protest.

In the continued discussion of LSD, I remain adamant in my opinion that this is a very bad idea, for reasons stated by several members already. While an alkaloid-filled organic carrier does exist in nature (as ergot), the high level of laboratory synthesis applied to the production of 'commercial' LSD deems this as 'bad news' if/when reviewed by a conservative public servant, whose objective is to block your submissions at every opportunity. I believe the inclusion of a lab-made illicit substance as a Transcendent Compound for the purposes of your discussions with Government is going to be counter-productive to achieving your goals. Furthermore, the Parliamentarians you may deal with have lived through the 1960's, they were most likely the dull kids left out of the drug & psychedelic rock revolution, so their recollection of LSD in society isn't going to be through rose coloured glasses. To rally for legislation change on LSD is futile, I believe. Narrow the focus of your energies further if you wish to be triumphant.......

Today I'm going to voice my support for Psilosybin as an inclusion, based on an assumption that you can submit an evidence-based statement confirming examples of carrier species considered native to Australia (ie P. subaeruginosa), and growing without human interference in the cultivation phase. You may wish to seek a statement on fungi distribution from a recognised Australian academic. He/she does not need to buy into your debate, but simply confirm the presence of native Psilosybe examples in this country. This might be invaluable to your proposal.

Following this path of reasoning, Dimethyltryptmine is a brilliant contender. With one of our best known native flora being a carrier for DMT, it's unlikely that legislation can ever possibly be passed to restrict the cultivation of Acacia sp. Obviously the crude 'lab' process involved in the synthesis of a usable DMT from Acacia sp. should be understated, with the focus being strictly on the alkaloid as a Transcendental Compound, and not the plant itself.

Which brings us Ayahuasca. The holy vine of the soul. An orchestrated, single-compound focus is going to be your best chance, and this is it. Not DMT, not Caapi vine, not Psycotria. Present your case for sacred Ayahuasca as a single preparation, and if successful, DMT simply falls into place. As a spiritual sacrament that is well documented in both existing animistic tribal structures, and in the Santo Daime & UDV cases (not a precedent, of course, being offshore, but a valuable example no less), you have an abundance of case reference material at your disposal. . The two flora that forms the basis of Ayahuasca are legal to cultivate in Australia, so the only hurdle becomes the go ahead to legally consume it.

And while you may feel that Santo Daime or UDV are not aligned to the spiritual vision of CIC, you need to overlook the schism, and utilise their published chronicles of experience to help you realise your own.

I know it's tough to divert your energy from so much that you have worked towards, but I hope you will give our constructive criticism some considered evaluation. The war for personal freedom will not be won by swaggering into town with an illicit apothecarist's bag of psychedelics hanging from your belt loop. Take the time to gently illustrate to the lawmakers the power of human synergy with one single organic Transcendent Compound, the essential nature of this Compound in spiritual awakening, and you might just maintain an audience for a longer period. The last thing you need right now is deaf ears.

And for the record, I'm not particularly advocating the use of Ayahuasca over other Transcendent Compounds. In fact, for my own exploration, LSD & Mushrooms would take precedence over others. Please understand that my words are not borne from a personal agenda, but from the desire to see you make progress. In rallying Government for legislative change, LSD & Divinorum must be omitted entirely. Please Greg, you need to reconsider your approach. Concentrate on Ayahuasca, and maybe fungi if you really need to insist on a poly-substance revolution. Drop the others from the mission, they will surely be your downfall.

I'll also use this opportunity to mention something else that has caused me some discomfort. I implore you to consider the implications our freedoms (as hobby botanists) that may eventuate from rattling the cage too vehemently. Spend a week rolling worst-case scenarios around in your mind, and make note of those which illustrate themselves as potentially harmful to the Australian botanical community. Then proceed as you feel ethically fit.

We do not need any further restrictions on flora, and we certainly don’t need a Government's renewed interest in the banned flora. The recent banning of lophophora species in many Australian states turned pleasant old cacti society folks with the swipe of a pen. A vocal push for mescline decriminalisation is likely to be followed up not by consideration of the innocent person's rights, but banning of all mescaline-bearing Trichocereus species.

And then you'll really have the SAB lynch mob calling for your execution. :lol:


Cheers,

Psylo
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#25 chilli

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 01:19 AM

Yes! Everything Psylo said!

But somehow I think Greg is not going to listen.

'As the plant produces its flowers, so the psyche creates its symbols.' —Carl Jung