Acacia Phlebophylla Cloning

[spagyricus]

Hello all, good to be here!

Currently got a young Phleb that I'm wanting to clone. Been growing for a while and I now have about 6 small cuttings, each about 10-20cm long. Guess I'll run through the process that I've put together from cursory net searches. Never done this before, so would appreciate some advice!

I've cut each small branch right below one or two phyllode nodes, and plan to submerge these lower nodes completely in soil.

I've made each cut at a diagonal edge, and shave off one side at about 5-10mm. Read this helps with rooting.

I plan on soaking each cutting for a little bit, and then dipping each in a small amount of honey. Although the honey contains no plant hormone auxins, it's generally considered to be a good (..enough [?]) rooting substance.

I will then plant each cutting in a small seedling pot, with normal potting mix (nothing flash, though I'm sure some perlite or such would help - worth investing?) and then mist/spray with water.

Then, as the humidity needs to be kept up, I will construct a makeshift greenhouse out of a wide and tall circular laundry basket wrapped in a large white bin liner or two.

I will then place the honeyed, moist cuttings in their pots and inside the 'greenhouse' - and with some containers of water, which will condensate and keep the humidity up. I will spray the plants every now and then, and ventilate, every now and then.

The only thing then left is heat - haven't quite figured that out. From my Alchemical work I use a sand bath (electric fry pan filled with sand), but I fear this will be too hot - so perhaps I will construct a heat pad from a biscuit tin, filled with sand, and with a single strong light globe underneath. This may provide a gentle enough heat to create a warm, and subsequently humid atmosphere for the cuttings to root.

The questions then are:

1. Do I need to soak the cuttings in water for a while before planting?

2. Should I not risk not using perlite/vermiculite and go and fetch some?

3. Is honey ok?

4. How far do I need to submerge each cutting, given that they are around 10-20cm high each and are relatively thin, and young?

5. Cutting/Cloning guides talk about soft wood and hard wood. This might seem a silly question, but I'm guessing A. Phleb is considered hard wood - even though these cuttings are small and soft currently? How does this change the cloning technique?

Think that's about all for now. Will post some photos when I've got it all going.

Cheers! x

[Alice]

Have you tried striking a cutting from acacia's before?

They are considered to be near impossible to grow from cuttings. There is, however, a very good thread here somewhere where a member had some success. But I would say this is the exception, rather than the rule.

Did you grow the mother from seed? How old/tall?

[spagyricus]

No I have not tried, ah, the old not-as-simple-as-I-imagined bag.

And the old lazy search to, sorry about that - just found the thread, you mean this one? http://www.shaman-au...ng&fromsearch=1

Seems complex indeed, a cursory look presents a lot of terminology that I am unfamiliar with. I am relatively new to this game. More importantly I should get onto it ASAP, they are already cut!

And perhaps here http://www.shaman-au...ng&fromsearch=1

Haven't studied them closely yet, will do now and perhaps contact relevant members..

Actually it was from a guy-I-know's plant (not on here) - less than a metre tall, quite a good specimen. What he gave me I have now cut, these cuttings are now all I have - hope I can make it! I am confident.

Edited January 5, 2012 by spagyricus

[spagyricus]

Wow, those two threads are incredible. Thanks to Ferret, Entity, Sola and others.

This is very useful http://anpsa.org.au/...08/jun08-1.html

I'll try and summarize it all, for the record:

1. Auxin hormones should be IBA done at 4g per Litre, which can be purchased as a gel and mixed with Acetone 2:1 (as opposed to Talc as powder - which is shit). Product/brand is Rootex, sells in 4g/L gel and 4g/l liquid, probably in acetone, and also 8g/l powder for hardwoods. Also as Clonex purple gel, IBA 4g/L. Approx 3/2 gel to acetone. Ferret dipped his for 40 seconds and air-dried for 30 seconds before planting. This amazing company sells the raw stuff http://www.austratec...u/products.html . Process is researched in this journal http://www.publish.c...r/EA9941225.htm

2. As I stated, important to keep the cuttings hydrated with mist and spray, but also frequently ventilated. Bottom heat is best - keeping it at around 20 degrees is best.

3. Probably best to have minimal foliage on each cutting - 1 or 2 phyllodes max.

4. Better to use the lateral cuttings (as in smaller branches growing laterally from the main stem) as opposed to the main stem.

5. Probably best to take from firm young growth, rather than fresh new growth or old growth.

6. From what I understand one can use any sort of soil, but the above link suggests the optimum is 10 parts propagating sand, 6 parts perlite, and 1 part peat.

7. Diagonal cutting to leave as much of the vascular tissue exposed as possible is good, even leaving a 'tail'. Also to cut cleanly and below nodes/notches (so notches can sprout roots). Still debate over whether submerging notches is best or not.

8. Having several cuttings per pot may increase chances of rootings - the standard of hardwoods being to bind them together as a bushel.

9. Keep everything clean!

etc etc. Could we put together a Tek?

Edited January 5, 2012 by spagyricus

[indigo264nm]

Man I'd recommend dipping cuttings in a dilute solution of sodium hypochlorite, followed by a rinse dip in normal water, and do this to your containers as well.

Use the mix mentioned and put into a 5 inch squat pot. Fill pot, compress mix lightly, and water thoroughly before putting cuttings in.

Make sure you use a stick or skewer to make the holes before you put the dipped cuttings in there otherwise you'll rub off all that precious hormone sticking them in. Have cuttings evenly spaced. Water in again thoroughly again.

You seriously need everything perfect if you're going to attempt cloning Acacia's. You want to make sure your mix is even, and your stuff is sterile because they are going to be in there for the long haul as I don't think they are going to be growing roots in a hurry.. you're attempting to play God and force a type of growth that DOES NOT occur naturally. If they actually strike, they are going to be disadvantaged compared to seed germinated in root growth and formation so keeping them alive after transplantation is going to be a challenge.

No point actually getting cocky and putting together a tek until you have success with your attempts. Hate to be a buzz kill but don't hold your breath that this will work out for you even if you swear you did everything properly.

I attempted this at TAFE years and years back with A. baileyana - I was hoping my odds would be better because the prostrate form of that plant is a much more successful in trying to propagate vegetatively. They were kept in a big proper shade house with bottom heat and misting systems set up so you can't get much better in terms of conditions, and after 2 months no root development whatsoever. 10 weeks and one started showing small nodules of root development. 3 months and the phyllodes started going brown. 4 months completely dried up. Oh and I took like 20 cuttings.

[indigo264nm]

Oh and if they are already cut then they're fucked unless you've kept them in the fridge in moist newspaper. You'd want to take cuttings at sunrise and have them in the prop mix within hours to give them the best chance possible.

[spagyricus]

Hmm,

Thanks for the information there, Indigo,

I had thought that it would be an ideal practice for us to assure the sustainability of these acacias, but perhaps it's best just to grow from seed.

I'll take those considerations in and see how I go, the Sodium Hypochlorite sounds like an interesting step - just for sterilization?

Also I have it on good word that getting Rhyzobium Nodes from Acacias trees (from the root) and placing them in each pot will help with pro-biotics, microbiotic contamination being the biggest risk.

Will update in the coming weeks/months.

t

[indigo264nm]

Yep. Sodium hypochlorite purely for sterilization.

For sustainability growing it anyway you can is always useful. Don't lose faith hehe. Basically if you can keep a phleb alive, reproduce genetics and then let them produce seed then you're still playing a vital part in keeping genetics of the plant alive. If it got even more endangered than it is the cultivation and preservation of strains will lead to a lesser chance of genetic bottlenecking when trying to restore a natural population.

Edited January 9, 2012 by -=IndigoSunrise=-

[sascacheuan]

Hello spagyricus.

If i was you I would try grafting to propagate this specie, I think you may get more success rate by this way.

I have found an interesting article about an endangered hawaiian specie of acacia, and shows pics of grafted tree:

http://sites.google.com/site/scotnelson/grafting-acacia-koa-1

I have read that Phleb are difficult to grow, and grafting on to a easy and vigorous specie, may save it from soil and diseases problems.

You may get young trees of two or three years old, to graft on to them.

What species of acacia are easy over there?

[indigo264nm]

That's not a bad idea to experiment with. Never even considered trialing grafts, though I've got a nasty scar from a grafting accident years back which makes me hesitant to do any grafting again... don't sharpen your budding knife razor sharp with a diamond file and get stoned before using it lol. Was sharper than I was used to and my reaction time was slower than normal

Plenty of hardy species over here....some are even weeds when introduced to different parts of Aus like A. cootamundra is around here.

Wonder if there is much published on grafting native Acacia's over here - I've never heard of it being done in Aus...

[sascacheuan]

If you write "grafted acacia" on google/images, you will find some pics of a nurserie that sells ornamental grafted acacias.

Althought you may use sharpen knifes, grafting, itsnt a crazy idea .

[indigo264nm]

The only info I could find about Australian Acacia grafting from a basic google search, which is not really practiced at his point, is that budding may be the prefered way and you have to be really quick with removing the bud and inserting it onto the root stock as oxidisation fucks it within seconds. Also that grafting the root stock should be the same species as the bud you're grafting, which isn't particularly helpful in this case. It is not widely practiced because Acacia's grow so readily from seed.

I'll do a journal database search later this arvo... if we could find a way to do this, budding could be a really good move for conservation as you could put buds from different specimens in the field onto the one stock and when it flowers it will be great for breeding purposes.

[sascacheuan]

You dont need to be quick, you get buds, remove leaves, and you can keep them well in a fresh and dark site for a few days. When you are ready to graft, you must to cut the base of the bud that are dry, to leave a clean an fresh surface to graft.

The same procedure used in grapevine grafting.

I think that Phleb could be grafted on to several australian species, and it would allow to grow phlebs in many kinds of soils and a bit more range of climates.

[spagyricus]

Think I remember reading somewhere that Phleb grafting never works, and when it does the leaves have no spice content. Could be wrong, def. needs to be investigated.

[indigo264nm]

You dont need to be quick, you get buds, remove leaves, and you can keep them well in a fresh and dark site for a few days. When you are ready to graft, you must to cut the base of the bud that are dry, to leave a clean an fresh surface to graft.

The same procedure used in grapevine grafting.

I think that Phleb could be grafted on to several australian species, and it would allow to grow phlebs in many kinds of soils and a bit more range of climates.

 

That is not procedure for budding of Australian Acacia's... in what I read they said you've got 30 seconds between removal to insertion otherwise don't count on the graft taking.

Think I remember reading somewhere that Phleb grafting never works, and when it does the leaves have no spice content. Could be wrong def. needs to be investigated.

I doubt there has been extensive research done on it. Just coz it's been tried before and failed doesn't meant it will never work. Alkaloid content does not matter - it's more about seed production as a conservation effort.

[planthelper]

i would, say it's very important to treat the mother plant in a specific way, before taking the cuttings. in other words, i would prune back the mother plant(or part of), maybe even several times.

than, when witches broom like, multiple shoots emerge, use them as cloning material.

this process will rejuvinate the material, and increase the strike rate, some parts of those cuttings might naturaly now contain hormones which will facilitate root formation.

anyway, for me, the tek is not very important, but the state of the cutting material is paramount,

if you want to sucessfully strike acacias.

[Jonstn]

Would air grafting be a better option for acacias?

http://www.ehow.com/about_6653017_air-grafting.html

I havnt tried it before but read a little about it earlier in a bonsai book, meat to be good for plants that are hard to clone.

[Sallubrious]

Would air grafting be a better option for acacias?

http://www.ehow.com/...r-grafting.html

I havnt tried it before but read a little about it earlier in a bonsai book, meat to be good for plants that are hard to clone.

 

They use that technique or a variation of it when propagating Avocado trees where the scion is etiolated prior to wounding and wrapping with sphagnum moss.

You don't see it much these days but pre conditioning by etiolation was once commonly used to try to enhance the production of adventitious roots in plants thought to be difficult to strike.

[mud]

Spag,

I wish u all the beginners luck in the world.. from alchemical hearts and minds, I bless thee thru mud and sand into whatever inspiration must be at hand-

and further more, I declare a spiritual hand, from all energies and allies who could surely

stand

a stick to grow roots, through Earth from ones hand..

that we may soon peer upon Phleb suceess,

and grand!

[indigo264nm]

As much as I would love to be part of the process for trialing phlebs for grafting, I'm not able to offer more than ideas and research due to my distance from the site.. somebody closer would be able to run an experiment on budding there. Naturally I'd imagine you'd have to have all prep and sterilize all equipment, bring multiple root stocks of the right age for grafting, and take buds from many different specimens found over the mountain (the greater the distance, the better).

Even if you can walk away only a few buds taking on a few of the root stocks then your work is done - especially if those buds were taken from different specimens over the mountain.

Multiple buds taking = multiple branches from buds flowering = easier pollination with genetics from different collected specimens....obviously this is due such close proximity of flowers from different species.

I might join the Australia Acacia Society page I found that give out monthly publications... somebody in there might point me to the right direction of somebody to talk to, especially if I'm asking it in regards to conservation of an endangered species. Maybe contact a Prof at uMQ in the field who might be able to give me some papers.