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Psychotria Identification


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#1 kadakuda

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Posted 22 May 2011 - 06:54 PM

First, does anyone have a publication (preferably english) that describes any of the common 3 discussed here (alba/carth/viridis)?

I have found a couple good pubs, but would like more.

So what exactly is it that separates these apart, i have hear lots online but no one has backed it up with a refference, so if there is a reference available i would like to know the title/author if possible :)


Here is some pics that was given to em as P. viridis and has since been called alba due to leaf wavyness and going right down the petiole. It started flowering recently so thought i would throw it up for questions.



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for comparison this is the P. alba from OZ, right here:
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as you can see the last set grows far faster. these 2 plants came about the same time and about the same size, thought the "viridis" was not rooted so took a month and a half to play catch up.

#2 Alice

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Posted 22 May 2011 - 09:45 PM

I personally now believe that carth and alba are the same plant. I have asked this question here before as have many others. So far as I have read no one can tell the two apart. I'm very happy to be proven wrong. I cannot provide publications, this is just my opinion.

Your pictures I would identify as carth/alba and not viridis.

#3 kadakuda

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Posted 22 May 2011 - 10:30 PM

Ok, and I am leaning towards alba as well, as many people seem to. BUT, this plant does not look at all like carth according to tropicos.

The thing i just can't comprehend is if no one can say why, then how can they say it is one or the other? I am trying to track down the pubs that classify them (anyone here have them) because there must be some form of distinguishing marks...???


check these links out

P. alba no pics which is a true shame!
http://www.tropicos.org/Name/27903753


P. carth pictures....VERY different than what i have photos of above....careful loading some of the herbarium pics, they are fricken massive (20mb+) and froze my firefox 3 times trying to download a few at once.
http://www.tropicos.org/Name/27903368



P. viridis...only one herb sheet and no real plant shots :(
http://www.tropicos.org/Name/27902202


This site is pretty good for finding info, if your into psychotria take a boo here: http://www.tropicos....subordinatetaxa


EDIT:
http://www.tropicos....753?projectid=5

Psychotria alba Ruiz & Pav

Synonymy

= Psychotria carthagenensis Jacq.

Flora Reference:

* Macbride, J. F. 1936. Rubiaceae, Flora of Peru. Publ. Field Mus. Nat. Hist., Bot. Ser. 13(6/1): 3–261.

Flora Page: 182


trying to track down a copy of that pub...archive.org seems to not work for searching right now, anyone else know where i can find it?



http://www.tropicos....368?projectid=4

Psychotria carthagenensis Jacq.
Synonymy

* Psychotria alba Ruiz & Pav.
* Psychotria fockeana Miq.
* Psychotria foveolata Ruiz & Pav.


edit again:
found it
Flora of Peru, Rubiaceae (Ser. 13(6/1))

http://ia600301.us.a...eru13fimacb.pdf

Edited by kadakuda, 22 May 2011 - 11:12 PM.


#4 kadakuda

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Posted 22 May 2011 - 11:49 PM

new post instead of edit for those interested.

from Flora of Peru book linked above.

Ovule 1 in each cell
Ovules erect or ascending
Corolla lobes valvate
Ovules affixed to teh base of the ovary
Ovary with 2 or more cells, the septum thick
Flowers perfect; stamens inserted usually in the throat of the corolla; plants usually trees or shrubs, sometimes scandent
Fruit drupaceous; plants not scandent

=Psychotrieae Tribe





Psychotria alba
A shrub or tree, 2-6 meters high, the branchlets glabrous or nearly so; stipules large, brown, obtuse, caducous; leaves short-petiolate, the blades mostly 7-16cm. long, elliptic-oblong to obovate, acute or acuminate, acute or attenuate at the base, glabrous or sometimes sparsely puberulent beneath, usually darkening when dried; inflorescence usually pedunculate, ovoid or rounded, little if at all longer than the leaves, with opposite or verticillate basal branches, the bracts minute, deciduous; flowers short-pedicellate; calyx minutely denticulate; corolla white, 4 mm. long, minutely puberulent or glabrate; fruit subglobose, 4mm. long, red or blackish.



Psychotria carthaginensis
A nearly glabrous shrub 1-3 meters, high; stipules large, thin, obovate, obtuse, brownish; leaves short-petiolate, the blades lance-elliptic to oblong-obovate, broadest at or above the middle, acute or acuminate, acute to attenuate at the base, puberulent beneath along the nerves or glabrate; inflorescencepedunculate, paniculate, open, usually radiately branched at the base, many-flowered, the minute bracts deciduous; calyx obsoletely denticulate; corolla white, glabrous or minutely puberulent, 4mm. long; fruit red, 4mm. long.

....

The determinations of some of the specimens cited ar more or less uncertain. In this species the leaves often are domatiate beneath, that is, provided along the costa with small, sack-like structures that house parasites.




Psychotria viridis
A shrub or small tre, 4.5 meters high or less, glabrous or nearly so; stipules large, thin, acuminate, ferruginous, caducous; leaves darkening when dried, thin, short petiolate, obovate or obovate-attenuate to the base; inflorescence pedunculate, spicate-paniculate, open, many-flowered, the minute flowers sessile in distant glomerules; corolla greenish white; fruit red, 4-5mm. long.



the new mission, find a good book on plant morphology terms :BANGHEAD2: anyone know one of those that describes all them fancy words with pictures? i can say i dont know abotu half those words lol.

but one thing i noticed as that viridis has green tint corolla and alba has a white one...it struck me once i read both as viridis=green and alba=white...so i wonder how important a feature this may be...and if the latin names were assigned due to this feature?

Edited by kadakuda, 22 May 2011 - 11:51 PM.


#5 Zaka

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 01:54 AM

Irie Kada,
Green/White flowers is the key...
From your great photo's, I would say alba/white....
Viridis is supposed to have green flowers.
I have a number of different plants, most of which have turned out alba, when flowered...
I am waiting on another plant to flower, hoping for green flowers.
I also have recently received a bunch of leaves from a few plants with a good heritage...and definitely Viridis.
Got lots of leaves with roots but no plantlets, yet!
Respect,
Z

#6 kadakuda

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 02:06 AM

ya, seems like. also got this pdf which is a VERY good read (still not done reading though). This website has a whole whack of good botany books/journals online!!
hxxp://www.botanicus.org/item/31753003566400

although im not done reading, not even close, i agree with you my plants above sure seem like carth. This really makes me wonder as there are so many who say carth are no good for aya, but some of these plants come from SA and are used in ceremony. those have not flowered though, just the leaves look very similar. time will tell.


the more i get reading the more it seems alba is no more and carth is the one one to use for both.

got any new pics? the ones at the nook are great :)

#7 planter

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 02:37 AM

kada you need to get yourself Wendy Zomlefer's Guide to Flowering Plant Families
that will straighten it all out for you, mostly. will really really help at least.

#8 Teotzlcoatl

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 04:32 AM

I personally now believe that carth and alba are the same plant. I have asked this question here before as have many others. So far as I have read no one can tell the two apart. I'm very happy to be proven wrong. I cannot provide publications, this is just my opinion.


I had the same questions and never got a good answer... perhaps they are the same?

We need a decent, concise guide to identifying the major ethnobotanical species in the Psychotria genus.
"We Are The Ones We Have Been Waiting For" - Hopi Proverb

#9 planter

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 05:57 AM

there are approx 700-1,400 species in the Psychotria genus
have fun

#10 kadakuda

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 06:04 AM

well, have been reading, 4am now and im hitting the sack. But i have found some researchers believe alba to be a synonym of carth.

see here: http://apps.kew.org/...?name_id=167103

and even in flora of peru in the 30's he suggested the 2 would likely merge.

But some people do consider alba valid, and these are recent pubs as well.

see here: http://apps.kew.org/...?name_id=167103

Teo bro, long time no see. here is a key at least for carth and viridis (and many other species). they dont list alba at all, so I assume they just consider it carth as well.
these 2 have good info and keys.

flora of panama 1980, around page 340 on that area.
http://www.botanicus.../31753003566376

messoamerican psychotria sp start at page 67
http://www.botanicus.../31753003566400


From the little i have been reading, i dont think a monograph of the whole genus is going to happen. maybe of subgenera and regional areas there is some. But its a pretty damn big genus to work it all out and key out.

here are some lists of psychotria
http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/qsearch.do
http://www.tropicos....subordinatetaxa

to bed i go. let me know if you dig any more up.

#11 Teotzlcoatl

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 07:21 AM

there are approx 700-1,400 species in the Psychotria genus



We need a decent, concise guide to identifying the major ethnobotanical species in the Psychotria genus.


"We Are The Ones We Have Been Waiting For" - Hopi Proverb

#12 kadakuda

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Posted 24 May 2011 - 06:52 AM

i was reading alittle today, and one guy states that P. viridis can have white & green corolla. if thats true, a white flower may not mean it isnt viridis.

they have very good keys, but i need to find a good refference book for the words they use to describe growth forms and shapes etc....any ideas?



here is a bunch of copied stuff from 2 books. I only copied it here because they released these journals for free online. some good diagrams, and help with the visual aspect.

And TEO, a key just for you :)

one other point was one of these mentioned P. viridis is "homostylous", which when looked up means styles of same length. That should be easy to check. same pics are posted at the nook.


From Flora of Panama, 1980
psychotria key

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Annals of missouri botanical garden
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#13 Teotzlcoatl

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Posted 24 May 2011 - 02:34 PM

And TEO, a key just for you


Thanks, very helpful stuff!
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#14 Evil Genius

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Posted 24 May 2011 - 06:28 PM

Awesome keys, Kada! Thanks a lot! Is the "flora of panama" book available somewhere on the net? bye Eg

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#15 kadakuda

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Posted 24 May 2011 - 10:47 PM

ya man, its all free online released by the publishers, not ripped off or anything. see links in post #10, its all there. that site has a LOT*** of complete journal series about botany all for free. and can download as PDF, which is what i have been doing for 3 days now lol.

#16 Evil Genius

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 12:40 AM

and can download as PDF, which is what i have been doing for 3 days now lol.

:lol: Did the same for the whole day now. Thanks for the links. Thats a great source for books.

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#17 planthelper

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 10:01 AM

nice thread, specialy like the stipules info

i tought myselfe to id some viridis plants by there stipules and here is a rough scetch i made.Attached File  shipipo stipula crop.bmp   276.46KB   29 downloads

the parts of the stipules colored in pink are in fact pink (ish) in color with all shipipo psychotria viridis plants. so far i have not seen other viridis plants with parts of there stipules colored a light pink.... aswell the domatias can be helping you id'ing those plants, for example our "normal" viridis displays (often) far less domatias, than la luna or shipipo.

Edited by planthelper, 25 May 2011 - 10:04 AM.

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#18 whitewind

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 07:30 PM

This is a pretty interesting subject. I have long thought that the P. alba and P. carthagenensis currently available are one and the same thing, but I'm pretty poor at the finer details of botany. P. viridis (the forms I have seen) look a lot more unique. I was recently over at this site http://www.stri.si.edu/sites/roubik/ looking at P. carthagenensis pollen prints (see plate 87) and I was surprised to see how variable the pollen within the Psychotria genus was. It's a shame the plates available don't show P. viridis or P. alba, but it's one level of research that might help identify the species types more easily (if anyone has access to high-tech equipment). These are the same guys who published the research following, so they must have some P. alba pollen prints somewhere.

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I was doing some research about the range of Psychotria alba, and it seems there is some dispute.

Psychotria alba has a range and distribution in the Atlantic Rainforests of Brazil along the coast
ref. Neotropical savannas and seasonally dry forests By Toby Pennington

This publication by the Smithsonian Tropical Research Institute, Republic of Panama also states that P. alba only occurs in the Atlantic Rainforests.

Whereas erowid online books states that P. alba collections have been reported from Bolivia, Ecuador & Peru.

These statements seem somewhat at odds with each other, and it may be that Psychotria alba is actually a different species not as yet available outside of it's native habitat.

#19 Sally

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 10:38 PM

I can see this discussion dragging out until time indefinite.
Seasonal variation & environmental factors can make this genus very difficult to identify with any certainty, even experienced botanists argue about these.
What's the need to identify Carths anyway ? - so you can get rid of them :wink:

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#20 whitewind

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 10:07 AM

I can see this discussion dragging out until time indefinite.
Seasonal variation & environmental factors can make this genus very difficult to identify with any certainty, even experienced botanists argue about these.


Sure, which makes it even clearer to me that there is some confusion as to the plants name status - carth and alba as I know them are so similar it's ridiculous trying to keep them apart. And after doing a little research, it seems that one of them doesn't even appear to come from the same ecosystem, which makes the ID very suspect. P alba may actually be quite different, toxic perhaps, and then one day someone comes along, thinks it's okay to ingest and ... that person might be you ;)

Edited by whitewind, 19 December 2011 - 10:48 AM.


#21 Zaka

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 10:35 AM

What's the need to identify Carths anyway ? - so you can get rid of them :wink:

Irie,
Yep!!!
Get them out of the yard!
Why would one want to grow a lesser plant in perfect conditions, when you could grow the right damn thing>???

D very suspect. P alba may actually be quite different, toxic perhaps, and then one day some smart alec comes along, thinks it's okay to ingest and ... that smart alec might be you

If they are indeed, different, I think they may have both been used in traditional brews.
Respect,
Z

#22 whitewind

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 01:10 PM

If they are indeed, different, I think they may have both been used in traditional brews.


But today? I am wondering why a collected specimen hasn't come out of coastal Brazil yet. Apparently, the Atlantic Rainforest has been decimated to the point where many of it's species are threatened with extinction. Perhaps there is something still to discover?

#23 Zaka

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 05:58 PM

But today? I am wondering why a collected specimen hasn't come out of coastal Brazil yet. Apparently, the Atlantic Rainforest has been decimated to the point where many of it's species are threatened with extinction. Perhaps there is something still to discover?

Irie,
There is always gonna be something else to discover!!!
I have a strain from Brazil that is distinctly different to the other albas I've seen....
I'm still waiting for the bugger to flower!!
I will then maybe able to determine any differences.
Respect,
Z

#24 kadakuda

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 10:09 PM

i too have some "carths" from brazil. Some are even from in front of the church and they use them in ceremony, so why throw them away? I for one like to collect different plants from different areas. I dont need the strongest/best etc, i like variety and diversity on my land.

#25 whitewind

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 06:51 PM

Wow! That's very cool guys. It would be really interesting to see if there is significant differences to the ones we have over here.