Opiate-based meds

[toast]

In July I had two lots of re-constructive surgery on my foot for a third degree burn, and have been on Endone & Oxycontin at vary amounts since.

I want to stop using the meds & just deal with pain, but get nasty withdrawals when I stop taking them.

The meds are making me vague and depressed, and when I stop them I get flu symptoms & can't sleep.

Does anyone know any herbs that may assist with this, like TCM or something similar?

cheers

[Teotzlcoatl]

Iboga.

[hebrew]

really teotz how constructive is that comment, for one iboga aint that easy to come by, not as easy as tcm herbs which toast asked about. how about offering something constructive as obviously toast is reaching out, yoru the master of all lists surely you got herbs on your list that would be suitable or are you just an administrator of lists without knowing the effects and applications of your herbs in the list

toast: there are some tcm herbs you could look into, there are some formulas you could try, i have experimented with these in the past, with various degrees of success and failure at aiding withdrawal. it has been some time since i have thought about it, but i will think about it, i am currently in the process of moving al my herbs to a better location n my house but i got heaps of other house clearing shit to take care of as well so, i got some herbs you are welcome to try and see if they help. but me getting access to them at the moment is tricky as they are scatter all through different boxes packed away.

but let me think of some formulas, a while back i sent someone here a small pill of a formula its a formula that calms the spirit, i found that to be effective, to some degree, and that person did too, initially i think, its an old formula and called for cinnabar to be used, i had to replace the cinnabar with a different mineral, due to its toxicity, but i think a one of dose of cinnabar is ok, especially in the dosage prescribed, its miniscule, but i have not noticed any mineral that calms to spirit more than cinnabar, maybe im crazy for taking it, mind you i havent taken it for a long time now, and i wouldnt give it others.

i am thinking a mixture of he huan hua or pi (hua tasting better)

ci si - magnetite

poria fungus

hu po- amber

wu wei zi - schizandria

da zao red and black date and goji berries

ling zi - reishi

herbs for heart and liver

but in no way am i a tcm herbalist, just learn for my own health really, but it might be worth seeing one, and letting them know they will be able to identify what vital organs need treatment in your case and treat accordignly. maybe some accupuncture may help too, but its expensive cause you need to go for many treatments. i know in china they have foudn a few formulas to be effective in treatment of opiate withdrwal, but i cant remember what they are, but these herbs still aint going to make withdrawals easy they will help regulate your body during the process

corydalis and white peony can be good at dealing with pain, but i still dont find it strong enough. extract may be the go, but never got around to making extract of them

corydalis can be quite good but you should monitor its use and never take it long term, i was told by a tcm herbalist

[hebrew]

ginseng and siberian ginseng too as well as

Oral administration of Withania extract (100 mg/kg) per se did not produce analgesia and did not block morphine-induced analgesia. However, repeated administration of Withania (at the above dosage) for 9 days attenuated the development of tolerance to morphine-induced analgesia (p[less than]0.01). Withania also suppressed morphine-withdrawal jumps which are a sign of the development of opiate dependence (as assessed by naloxone precipitation of withdrawal on day 10 of testing)Pretreatment with sitoindosides VII to X and withaferin A from Withania at all doses (10 to 150 mg/kg, i.p. administration) significantly reversed morphine-induced inhibition of gastrointestinal tract transit (p[less than]0.05) and inhibited development of tolerance to morphine-induced analgesia (p[less than]0.05).The treatment did not itself influence intestinal motility nor produce any perceptible analgesic effect. The author suggested that Withania may be useful in the treatment of morphine withdrawal syndromes and the attendant physical dependence on morphine, including immunodepression.

 

Opiate withdrawal places considerable stress on the body, hence the use of adaptogens (which help the body to minimize the negative effects of stress) can be helpful. One of the best adaptogenic herbs is Eleutherococcus senticosus (Siberian ginseng). [24] Another valuable adaptogenic herb which also promotes hepatic detoxification (phase I, phase II) and has useful antioxidant properties is Schisandra chinensis.

Schisandra is official in the current Chinese and Japanese pharmacopeias. In addition to its traditional use in Chinese medicine as a tonic and sedative, Schisandra has been studied and utilized as a "harmony remedy" in Russia. In the 1980s a series of lignans which showed significant biological activity were isolated from Schisandra. Recent interest has focussed on its antioxidant, hepatoprotective and adaptogenic activities. Schisandra has been evaluated and used in Russia as an adaptogen. On the basis of uncontrolled trials it was said to increase endurance, increase physical efficiency in humans and decrease sickness in factory workers and children.

 

edit to add this link you find it interesting

bob flaws article

i think the tonic and adaptogen herbs are ones to look for. i got some good tonic formulas

Edited September 28, 2010 by VelvetSiren

[FancyPants]

As a different aspect to perhaps explore, I personally found the withdrawal symptoms of chills, flushing, sniffles and drowsiness to be helped with e phedra (Ma Huang). There's a couple of locally available plants with similar properties of e phedra which because I haven't looked into them yet I've forgotten the name.

Herbs to assist with sleep were difficult for me because I have Restless Legs Syndrome which went absolutely ballistic when I withdrew from codeine. An LSA source like HBWR would've done me great for that time except that it didn't occur to me

I assume you've started or tried to taper off your dose? It'll make a huuuuge difference if you can taper as much as you can before the withdrawal process.

There's a couple of good opioid withdrawal/addiction threads with lots of useful information but I just had a look to link you but couldn't find it.

Good luck! It's all totally worth it in the end

[Rabaelthazar]

Teotz, I think that's a really irresponsible suggestion without qualifying further. Ibogaine therapy isn't risk free by any means. Breaking an opiate habit is a complex and delicate issue and Ibogaine treatment, IMO, should wait until some other attempts have been made.

Toast, have you talked to your doctor about slowly reducing the dose? Eventually you'll need to make the final break but you might find it easier breaking from a lower dose. Should reduce the severity of withdrawals.

Another way is to just do it. Organise a week off from work, designate a day and throw away your scripts and meds. Have someone with you that you trust to talk you out of going back to the doc and just force yourself to push through. This obviously takes a lot of strength and you'll have to be prepared to feel shit for a few days.

As far as herbs go, and as far as I'm concerned, there's not any magic way to avoid withdrawals (he he, maybe ibogaine) so just try and keep well fed if you can and herbal teas to settle your stomach. Best of luck. Keen to see if anyone has any better herbal advice.

[mescalito]

Heimia might help tho not TCM,but acts on opioid receptors,not sure if it would suit your position but anyway.

Go see a TCM Prac if you can there's a great one at Cabramatta...damn can't find the business card atm.

Here's where it is tho.

Start tapering today....time waits for no-one my friend.Am just wondering too if since you're into chillis,that maybe watch your intake as they are loaded with Salicylates...good in small quantities,but can overload your systems chi flow as I found.

Rev's pretty knowledgeable with the TCM stuff too.

Maybe look into nymphea,lotus...

Good luck toast and thanx for your help too

[Hashassian]

the fermented and dried sceletium plant..........kanna! with focus and a positive intent, ive got $1 it works!

one of Hasha's fav and most respected plants. ive seen it whip alcoholism, weed need, depression, insomnia, just to name a few.

oh and its that time of the year when everyones p.som are flowering!! timely

tea anyone?

[sapito]

I dont know how wise it is to recommend tea for people that are already having issues getting off opiates. Steer clear of that IMO

[hebrew]

yes i agree pods are nice and dandy, but if you are already in the grips of the monkey, what happens i found through experience is you are left worse off when the pods run out and they do run out.

stay away from the pods if you are wanting to kick the endone, not gonna help.

toast if you need any herbs let me know, i will do my best at getting any tcm herbs you need, and if its lotus stamen your after, i got plenty of that, actually i owe someone lotus or said i was getting them some, if you read this please remind me.

[FancyPants]

Oh and while it's illegal in Aus, the theoretical help that MJ gives (as long as you don't think that use will develop into a problem unto itself) is useful for both pain issues and as a relaxative, particularly at night.

[Hashassian]

i said kanna!! with mental backing as your body is only a servant to your mind

opium is a catch 22, ya'll know that! as is anything that is mighty mighty. 7 days straight and its to much mate. show some respect!!

id also look at the native australian lemon grass plant.....cymbopogan ambiguus, with high doses of amino acids. and a tad of mj

[toast]

Thanks for all the comments, well most of them anyway ("Iboga"...."Electro shock treatment"....."trepan"...."Lobotomy"...any other helpful catch phrases Teotzlcoatl? There you go - I think I might have started your next list for you)

I am starting to reduce my doses, with the view of weaning off all together.

That was my first mistake, going cold turkey after an unusually strong dose - wow nice withdrawals.

Some days I'm on my feet all day for work & need to take higher doses than otherwise.

VS - definitely interested in any TCM herbs you think might help - PM sent.

Mesc - thanks or the heimia suggestion. I read one of t st's thread about that, I'll have to try that.

I have a decent heimia bush that need a prune.

Appreciate the support and kind words

Any more suggestions would be very welcome,

thanks,

Toast

Edited October 2, 2010 by toast

[planthelper]

i think what some people say here is, don't just switch addictions.

heimia and sceletium, might help more in a holistic sence!

thx velvet for your wonderfull personal post's, i always read yours with even more concentration.

one can either try to get insights into ones addiction, (aya, iboga, etc..) and hope it helps,

or to look for alternatives, but kratom might be good for a comedown, it's not good to get hooked on kratom either. and this risk has to do with denial foremost.

i'm lucky because i always new better than the doctors about the risk to get hooked on pain medication,

so i hardly ever take them.

[mescalito]

Just to add anecdotal and traditional use,mandragora for sleeping through pain during withdrawals,I won't give any advice on this nor say to use it as it is a dangerous plant to play with.

[indigo264nm]

There have been many good suggestions above that are definitely worth trying, and I definitely support the herbal route if it works, but I would seriously consider buprenorphine patches (lowest possible dose) if you've been on the pain meds for that length of time.. Your pain will be there still but at least it's a viable option to get off opi addiction, especially if you've formed a taste for em not just for pain relief. Much easy to taper down off bupe.

Otherwise you're just gonna have to taper down your oxy slowly - which I have seen done in non abusers who were on large doses for pain that took place in hospital for over 9 months of reconstructive surgery, and another 3 months on top of rehabilitation to get her walking again. She had no problem with the wean down, and she was on 2 x 80mg OC's per day.

[C_T]

while i admit to know very little about opiate's, my 6th sense tingles at using bupe from only 10 weeks of opiates.

A year or two yeah, but for 10 weeks worth? Thats a bit overboard isn't it?

[mescalito]

Could very well be the case,BUT so far as Benzo's go,(I'd imagine a similar phenomena with Opiates?)it may well depend on the individual's response and the luck of the draw,for want of a better way to say it.

Some have had a worse time than I getting off 3 months use of .5mg/day Xanax...I was on 6mg for years,then dry cut to 4 before starting the slow taper.All together around 8 years so far.

It was the first rapid withdrawal that came back months later,kicked my ass and the wheels went back,started at .125mg and was advised to keep upping the dose when it wouldn't cut the mustard.

I guess I'm saying everyone's tolerance is individual and seems to have a residual memory in the user.Stress management,sleep and adequate diet are of utmost importance either way.

[toast]

while i admit to know very little about opiate's, my 6th sense tingles at using bupe from only 10 weeks of opiates.

A year or two yeah, but for 10 weeks worth? Thats a bit overboard isn't it?

 

I talking physical addiction not mental addiction. While the meds are more-ish, it is easy enough to reduce oe stop altogether, except for the physical withdrawal systems.

Its not like I would make it up!

I stopped the meds cold turkey before I started this thread and suffered withdrawals the next day day got pretty intense by the second. I started them again, on a doctors advice, & have been reducing the doses gradually, but I woke today feeling like shit again.

How often do you think I should reduce the doses I take?

Thanks for the advice, I'm still sorting through them to decide which I'll try.

[Legba]

...i think the tonic and adaptogen herbs are ones to look for...

 

Jiaogulan Tea - "...is frequently referred to as "Southern Ginseng..."

You can find some at the Chinese shop west of the train station at hornsby.

I had to find it on the shelf myself. The staff are no use. It looks like this...

... you may want to add a bit of sugar to it. I add some peppermint and vanilla.

Inspiring thread

[mescalito]

Are there any wave/rebound W/D's one could have to go through after a short C/T then re-instating?

Just wondering if that's why you started feeling like shit later,this happens with BZ's.

Also on the Ginseng,I'm thinking that maybe trying to speed up the process may not necessarily be the optimal way??

Adaptogens I can see the use for so long as they don't have other "amping-up" properties IME.

All just Q's and things to ponder.I know I used a few things that I thought would help when in fact the toxins were coming out too fast for my body/diet/sleep to keep up or with and landed me back well behind the eight-ball.

If there were safe short cuts(and there aint any in life LOL),then I reckon we'll find 'em here,as there so far aren't any AFAIK....riding it out can be a daunting,painful challenge,but a challenge worthy of regaining your life back.

It's early days my friend...support is the best ally we can offer.....stay strong.

mesc...

[C_T]

I talking physical addiction not mental addiction. While the meds are more-ish, it is easy enough to reduce oe stop altogether, except for the physical withdrawal systems.

Its not like I would make it up!

 

but its my understanding bupe is also physically addictive so tapering from current meds or bupe you still get bad withdrawals... ie is it the best option?

[Jamison Schuetz]

Why don't you try poppy seeds. Just eat some poppy seeds, down with water, then that should help to remain calm, and will inhibit sleep. Even the blue poppy seeds (that aren't papaver somniferum) at the grocery store are good. Also try seeds and foliage of papaver somniferum, it will probably work.

I have some experience just putting some poppy seeds in your palm, then chug them down with tap water seems to work well.

Jamison

[mescalito]

Not having a go at ya Jamison, but...

i think what some people say here is, don't just switch addictions.

 

The blue poppy seeds are grown in Tasmania for the Pharm industry for ummm yeah,and also health concerns have been tossed about for quite a while here about consumption,the search engine should yield results.

[kindness]

I'm should be an expert on getting off things by now :/ but I'm not lol! I have however tapered off pods and codiene, (and some time ago a stronger version of the two which I didn't take for a great length of time). Thing was the pods ran out for the year and I was in the grips... so I reached for the next easily available opiate, codiene... CWE'd lots of pills, and used that stuff for a few months... or more.. can't exactly remember dates.

I do know that it took a long time to get off the shit even though it was 'just' codeine I started out with the CWE of the pills then went onto eating the pills normally and then into reducing the number of pills over a day / strength of codeine in the pills I purchased and finally kicked em. I still had to go through a much reduced to what endone feels like withdrawal for a couple of days but the reduction kinda got me down to enough of a place where that wasn't going to be major.

Taking time with a reduction and not trying to do it all before next week I have found very helpful for me with my addictions. Things take time and it is worth taking it with yourself. Two steps forward and one step back sometimes is also okay.. actually part of the process if you ask me

Strength to you though though toast... and as someone else said, if you don't want the medications you could always send them this way ;p I promise not to get addicted to them again!