Panax Ginseng - large doses

[Zen Peddler]

Through luck more than anything an elderly aussie-chinese workmate set me up with absolute shit loads of panax ginseng root - red ginseng or korean ginseng. Ive been basically taking it daily for a while and recently have been trying some fairly large doses. To be honest im suprised this stuff is legal. its not often someone can feel SOOOO good from a (currently) legal substance. At larger doses its a very MDMA type feeling. Love and wellbeing and all that. Very relaxing too...

It can leave me irritable and thirsty afterwards, but in general it makes me feel quite relaxed, very euphoric and annoyingly horny. It makes life feel a little more amazing.

Any one else tried this??

[ThunderIdeal]

what dose?

anyone know where to get bulk?

if you're not overstating then this would answer the old question 'what plant is like mdma?'

[kindness]

There's clearly a reason that a shit load of asia is right into this plant and it costs so much

I think that you have to be careful when using it however - don't over do it as I works the shit out of your adrenal glands I believe. I don't think that it's a good idea to do it in large quantities for long periods of time. I think the idea is to use it in small amounts for a while.

I believe it is also used as something that can help to purify your body - by pumping the shit out of your adrenal gland and really getting your body going in overdrive... but as I said I don't think it's a good idea to do that too much. Remember that it is a medicine and not a food.

[Sonny Jim]

I have not tried the whole dried root (red=steamed?) but I have been through 2 X 500ml bottles of the Mediherb 1:2 panax ginseng extract.

And yeah it is a pretty powerful herb. I was also initially surprised by the strength, energy, euphoria etc it gave me. Its claimed restorative actions also seem to be true IME.

I found 5-6ml of the 1:2 was a pretty high dose. If I had too much I would get noticeably irritable and my body temperature would go up in an almost uncomfortable way. I think the recommend daily dose was about 2-3ml

I also like siberian ginseng (eleutherococus senticosa)its not as strong but dose have other bennefits.

[ThunderIdeal]

lots of info around although none so far implied using it as a stimulant or empathogen.

can be applied directly to the male member if dysfunctional. might create estrogen (bit more to it than that though, look it up). in women, could increase the growth of breast cancer.

[hebrew]

ren shen - red ginseng is one of the most important chinese herbs, its very yang though in tcm medicine, and you should not take it when sick, only when healthy it shouldnt be taken for long periods of time i believe. it a male herb good for men. the name is interesting as well, shen meaning spirit. thre are other shen herbs to and these herbs are called shen for no reason, they affect the spirit in one way or another, ginseng is a good herb, but quality herb is very very epensive, it can be drying like you say, so it often needs to be balanced with a yin herb like huang qi or other.

there is a wu shen formula i am very interested in making one, wu shen meaning 5 spirit formula. compromising of 5 shen herbs.

and i think it ws an ingredient in genghis khans tea, but that is going from memory i could be wrong, but his tea is a very strong stimulant. containing herbs such a ephedra and other herbs like that. i have not tried large doses, as i do not think it is very good for you to take large doses, it is very yang and can put you out of balance. be careful. supplement your use with some yin tonics to counteract the yang would be my suggestion.

intersting though that you are finding it mdma like, i find it very good in combination with dang gui, and some other tomic herbs, giving energy and positive feelings but this is in a formula so there synergies are working together.

some other bits and peices about the herb

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until you see how your body sits with it, drink it once a day, every 3 or 4 days. If it is good feeling, with no head pressure (some people are sensetive to ginseng)

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you should not take ginseng with colds, flus, fevers. those are excess symptoms, the ginsengs are for states of depletion, and tonifying,( if the body is balanced )

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ginseng is indeed and appetite stimulant

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Red ginseng is very warming to the spleen/earth function

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according to some of the commentary in the Pen Tsao, 'ginseng' family of herbs were not determined by their related botanical families, as they are today, but tonics that produced a specific type of shen, were all considered to be in the 'ginseng' family, because after good health is obtained, their side effect produces shen, more than any other element.

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Edited July 17, 2010 by VelvetSiren

[educate]

Panax is in a league of its own! A very special herb. My understanding and experience is that Panax is more stimulating compared with Siberian ginseng, Eleutherococcus senticosus, which is a standard adaptogen.

I agree with VelvetSiren about not taking it when sick. I heard a chinese explanation describing taking Panax while sick like killing someone and burying the body under your house. You get rid of it quickly but you have to deal with it later and it will fester even more deeper.

One thing to consider is "Ginseng Abuse Syndrome". Some people react with small doses and get adverse effects immediately, while others have a higher threshold.

Goes back to Everything is best in moderation.

[Amazonian]

Panax and green tea.

Edited July 17, 2010 by Amazonian

[dworx]

While in Korea we bought ginseng with deer horn and ginseng gum and ginseng root etc In Australia goto teh china town in your city, Sydneys haymarket was a good place and you can buy extract cheap its like a thick black tar syrup [the good one]. Sonny jim is rigth it will elevate your temp and VS is also correct it is very yang. I notice if the ginseng is made to a tea either root or extract, if you lift a spoonfull of tea out and drip it onto the surface the droplets will ride over the top of the tea. It is used in soup in korea as well.

Such a nice earthy flavour. I have consumed a lot of ginseng but never experienced MDMA effects. Ginseng is known as the man root [yang] it is sold, price dependant on age the older the plant was at harvest the better. It is very slow growing and a ten year old root at harvest may demand many thousands of dollars.

Edited July 17, 2010 by dworx

[hebrew]

it old days imperial ginseng, was ginseng that was 100 years old, and was only for the emporer only.

just a little tidbit of history. how you can tell if the plant was 100 years old i dont know, but it is a wonderful herb, i like it in my tonic drinks, every few days, combined with dan shen as well. dang gui, second most important herb in tcm. very good womens herb but also great for men, combined with ginseng it would promote blood circulation given energy and slight anlgesic properties too.

i cant get enough dang gui.

i balance with huang qi. astralagus root.

[PhoenixSon]

three weeks on, two weeks off.

[mutant]

wow this is very interesting indeed!

[Alchemica]

Zen Peddler BlueGreenie - Like ThunderIdeal, I'm keen to find out what a "fairly large dose" is? I have 100g of red Panax Ginseng (fairly thin, so probably not that old) and the suggested dose is 10g. If I was wanting to test out a possibly euphoric dose of this stuff, how much would you suggest? Do you think I need to take it regularly and then take a high dose?

...is the abuse potential of this stuff great enough that likening it to MDxx is a bad idea?

Edited July 19, 2010 by Alchemica

[hebrew]

be careful with ginseng, too much is not good from what i have been told by herbalists, plus its expensive.

test in small amounts and see how you go

usual dosage is

decotion : 9 grams

powder 1.5 - 3 grams

in formula it depends on the formula

i am finding ginseng really nice in a formula i am making at the moment. gives you that mental clarity and energy.

i will check my references about maximum dosage and get back to you about it all

i would be hesitant about taking too larger a doses or for long periods of time

it can be very drying herb, if taking large amounts i would recommend taking a yin type herb to balance it

i hear korean ginseng is not as drying.

huang qi will blend nicely with ginseng and it is a very good longevity herb as well, good tonic herb and an important herb to the old taoist herbalists, in the old medical books from china they talk about the spiritual side of herbs as well not just the medical, huang qi is reported to make ones muscles and tendons loose and flexible, and strong, and gives the ability for one to fly, if taken over long periods of time. but ginseng i dont think is intended to be taken over long periods of time or in large doses, but i could be wrong, i need to check my references

on a side note huang qi combines well with ma huang, extending and expanding the stimulating properties.

[kindness]

I don't think there is really potential for abuse of this plant... that is only my opinion though, maybe there is? I take it daily and have done for quite a while now. I use a product called Adrenoplex it has a number of components in it all of which are meant to stimulate the adrenal gland I think - so it's a tonic, (correct me if I'm wrong here VS) - anyhow it has withania som', panax ginseng, panax quinquefolium, (american ginseng) and reshi shrooms among other things like tyrosine, phenylalanine, b12 etc.

It's a pretty good mix and I do notice that it helps clear my mind and has also returned my libido to somewhere closer to normal - it had been really really low and crap - I think that is because of cig's, alcohol and val's.

anyhow, yes a powerful herb but I dunno about the MD m a qualities of it? I also don't know what sort of levels the body can handle before it becomes toxic. Probably wouldn't be too hard to find out though. I'm just trying to add my little bit to the conversation.

peace

[Magicdirt]

I've fermented Panax ginseng in water Kefir, they say when it has Kefir fermented it has the ability to cross the brain blood barrier.

When Kefir'd it has a much stronger effect than normal and is mildly psychoactive.

I've often wondered how kefir fermenting some DMT rich substance or salvia would go after smoking a few caapi leaves.

Or even smoking Caapi leaves before drinking Kefir Panax ginseng.

Velvet Siren mentioned the 100 year old Ginseng, I'm not sure but I imagine it would have annular rings similar to a tree which would enable a fairly accurate method of determining the age of the plant.

[hebrew]

i cant seem to find info about high dosage of ginseng in my notes so i will leave my comments to my opinion, i take it regularly but i do also take time off from it too.

i like ginseng, its a great herb, but i dont know about m d m a like effects from it. i am in no way an expert on Chinese medicine. meanies your mix sounds good.

ling zhi - reishi is a wonderful herb, but god it taste like shit.

[Alchemica]

Thanks, looks like it's best not to push the dose too high with the ginsengs.

Characteristic signs and symptoms of overexposure to ginseng have been named ginseng abuse syndrome. These signs and symptoms include morning diarrhea, skin eruptions, sleeplessness, nervousness, and hypertension (Chandler, 1988).

Siegel studied ginseng abuse syndrome in 133 persons using ginseng regularly for at least one month. Some subjects used Siberian ginseng; it was not possible to isolate these cases from those using Panax ginseng. Ginseng doses varied from 8 to 10 g three times a day for capsules; 0.5 to 3 g twice a day for roots, 1 to 2 g three times a day for ground powders, and 2.5 to 5 ml a day for extracts. Most subjects experienced CNS excitation and arousal. Fourteen subjects who ingested Panax ginseng roots experienced hypertension, nervousness, sleeplessness, skin eruptions, and morning diarrhea; five had edema. Ten became euphoric, restless, agitated, and insomniac. Ten taking high doses (15 g) felt depersonalization and confusion. The average daily dose of ginseng roots was 3 g for persons experiencing ginseng abuse syndrome. One user reported that abrupt withdrawal precipitated hypotension, weakness, and tremor. Ginseng abuse syndrome appeared periodically in the first 12 months of ginseng use but was rarely reported in followup examinations at 18 and 24 months. Taken together, these effects mimicked those of corticosteroid poisoning, strongly suggesting a steroidal mechanism of action.

http://www.arthritis-treatment-and-relief.com/corticosteroid-poisoning.html

Looks like (partial) agonism of glucocorticoid receptors could cause a "fight-or-flight" type reaction with high doses.

Pharmacology of ginsenosides: a literature review http://www.cmjournal.org/content/5/1/20

Might be enjoyed more by those with bipolar - seems it can cause a switch to mania.

[tryptamine]

Good to hear you guys are getting some decent effects from this one.

Personally, after trying powder, tinctures, capsules and chewing the root I have found it to do little for me. I have had far more profound effects from other adaptogens such as Maca, Aswaganda and Rhodiola.

This thread has rekindled my interest though, I will seek out some quality root and try again.

[ajna]

i was also surprised by the effectiveness of ginseng when i first tried it

this was in a period when i was abstaining from caffeine and was finding myself very sensitive to most stimulants. chewing about a teaspoon of dry root in the morning gave me a great energy boost, uplifted mood and generally feeling very motivated and positive. i guess you could say mildly euphoric. this dose was less effective at a later time when i wasn't quite as hypersensitive to stims, but still pleasing.

i would imagine kefir-ginseng would be well worth a try, thanks for that info magicdirt. i have used withania (indian ginseng) this way (but with milk kefir) and noticed a definite increase in effectiveness, requiring lower dose. i figured this may be just to do with increased bioavailability but i had considered the possibility it increases the likelihood of crossing the BBB too

[kindness]

interesting you say it might be more enjoyed by those with bi-polar... like me. Can't say that it has switched me to mania... I have been taking it for ages and it hasn't pushed me either way - that is up or down.

It might just help those w/ bipolar maintain some balance or something... dunno. Nice to see discussion about ginseng however. I really like the plant. I don't think I will ever be pursuing a 'psychoactive / hallucinogenic' or whatever effect from it... it is just a very powerful herb that, for me, helps to maintain good balance in my body.

peace

[Alchemica]

interesting you say it might be more enjoyed by those with bi-polar... like me. Can't say that it has switched me to mania... I have been taking it for ages and it hasn't pushed me either way - that is up or down.

It might just help those w/ bipolar maintain some balance or something... dunno. Nice to see discussion about ginseng however. I really like the plant. I don't think I will ever be pursuing a 'psychoactive / hallucinogenic' or whatever effect from it... it is just a very powerful herb that, for me, helps to maintain good balance in my body.

peace

 

Good to hear your experiences. Seems there are good reasons for using Panax ginseng in bipolar disorder (even with psychotic features: http://blogfile.paran.com/BLOG_127523/200809/1222700510_Therapeutic%20Effects%20of%20Ginseng%20on%20Psychotic%20Disorders.pdf) and schizophrenia (reduction in negative symptoms: http://www.webmd.com/schizophrenia/news/20080508/ginseng-may-help-treat-schizophrenia ).

[Zen Peddler]

Thanks for the interest in this post. The dosages Im talking about are 8 or 9 doses of 9gram bundles. So quite large. the type of ginseng is red or korean ginesng although the chinese guy who used to be a TCM specialist tells me that white or red doesnt matter as long as its panax.

I do have a medical condition that alters my sensitivity to some things so perhaps this plays a part, but the dosages im talking about are way above recommended. I find my body not only accommodates these doses, it actually responds ina cleansed way to them.

Dang shen is also well tolerated.

[hebrew]

9 grams can be a typical dose in tea form, are you taking 9 grams of powder? now that is what i would call high dose if in powder for

generally in chinese medicine, herbs are dosed at around 6-15 grams 9 being most common as a tea, but if it is in a formula the dosage may change depemdng on its function in the formulas

and powder dosage usually falls within the 1-3 grams range, once again depends on formula but plain herb usually these are standard doses

dan shen is good stuff ay

combines well with ren shen

shen = spirit

ren shen is for the spleen

dan shen is for the heart

some interesting folklore about some different shen medicines

should have a tonic available soon if people are interested containing the 5 shens

There are five shen (spirits) put together in a larger category also called "shen". The five shens are: Shen (Spirit - in the heart), Yi (Intention - in the spleen), Po (Animal spirit - in the lungs), Zhi (Will - in the kidneys), and Hun (Ethereal spirit - in the liver).

each of the herbs in the 5 ginseng tonic covers the 5 spirits

In Daoist lore, xuan shen is used for purification and to release. Xuan means "mysterious" or "spiritually deep", but it also implies chaos. It was named after Xuan Shang Ren, the Daoist god of chaos. An older name for this herb is "zhi cao" or "herb of knowing". It was used a lot by the priests of the "Northern Dipper" school of Daoism. (Tai chi also came from this school.) Becauseit dissolves and dislodges masses and phlegm, when one takes it (especially as a single herb) one should be prepared to handle various "dislodgings" in one's life. It is used with sandalwood as an incense to purify a new start.

Dan shen is related to reconstruction, and the character for "dan" is a certain color of red, but the word "dan" also implies a precious pill. The word "dan tian" refers to the lower abdomen, where the energy center of the body is seated. Dan shen promotes internal alchemy and insight. Time and timing, being at the right place at the right time. It is also used to increase self esteem and improve self awareness, and to improve one's internal sense of direction, to lead one back to the self.

Ku shen means "bitter ginseng", but ku shen also implies the ancestors looking over you and is used for the beginning stages of meditation. It is related to initiation and works on the level of "recovery". It used to be used in small doses, with the root bark just allowed to sit in the mouth. Bitter stuff, though.

Interestingly enough there is a native Hawaiian Sophora that is used clinically by the Hawaiians in exactly the same manner and for exactly the same condition as ku shen was used by the Chinese.

the last bit of info is from a herbalist but it is very interesting and its hard to find this sort of information about chinese herbs these days, in all the old books like the beng cao it would include this spiritual info about plants, but these day the materia medica, its all about functions and what the physically do, which is ok, i guess its not that hard to learn about the spirit of the plant if we look at vegetalismo practices and how they learn about plants in combination with ayahuasca then we can adapt that to learning about any plant scent thing we wish for, as long as we first learn to work with ayahuasca.

but something i have been learning lately is that one can do this also without the aid of ayahuasca, by drinking the herbs for a month or so, longer sometimes, everyday, your body gets its taste it properties and if you are noticing you learn about that plant too

rambling on ay so will leave it, i have a fond love for chinese medicine

[dragonfly]

How do you think the panax ginseng is compared with siberian and american ginseng? I can't really see much difference in their effect, but I don't take large doses of them.